Start it or let it sit???

tim721

Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Posts
1,027
Reaction score
0
Location
west milford, nj
I officially tucked away the roadster Jan. 1 for a few months til this nasty weather passes. By dropping most of the insurance on it, I am only able to start it up and let it sit in the driveway. My question is this...

Is it better to let it sit for a while and start it once a month, or is it better to start it more frequently?? My main concern is that cold starts usually put alot of stress on the engine. Its hooked up to a battery tender, so I'm not worried about it going dead.

How often should I start it?? This is my first winter with it, & any feedback is appreciated!

TIM
 

genXgts

Enthusiast
Joined
Sep 24, 2001
Posts
1,340
Reaction score
1
Location
windsor, ontario, canada
Hey Tim,

I let mine sit for the winter months personally, the stress of starting the car, possible wear and tear on the interior (crack the seats when sitting in them, console, etc.). I just let mine sit until we creep back into 40,50 range and then give her the once over when things are a little more pliable.

Surely opinions vary on this one, many start weekly and do a rollout to keep the tires from flatspotting. Sitting on carpet mine never have.

I fire mine up on warmer days right up until a few weeks ago, leave it for the deep chill of approx 12 weeks and then get back her.

Your leaving this thing in the driveway, as in exposed to the elements? Take a pic! (have you considered unheated storage in a unit for the few months?)

take care,
 
OP
OP
T

tim721

Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Posts
1,027
Reaction score
0
Location
west milford, nj
Thanks for the input Ryan,

No, the car is garaged, I just back it out into the driveway to let it run.
 

BADVENOM

Enthusiast
Joined
Dec 16, 2002
Posts
2,684
Reaction score
0
Location
port washington, n.y. usa
Hey Tim, maybe you should do what I did. Send it on vacation for 3 months to dougs in warm Miami Beach. Shoot, the car goes on longer vacations that I do!
 

DrumrBoy

Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 21, 2003
Posts
2,612
Reaction score
0
Location
GA
Definitely let it sit. If you catch a warm day after a rain (washes salt away)and want to drive its OK to do so provided you go for a long drive (30+ min).
 

Steve 00RT/10

Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 18, 2000
Posts
1,751
Reaction score
0
Location
Michigan
There are differing opinions on this. I have stored vehicles for 6 months a year for almost 20 years. Once I park them(good and hot)--that's it till spring. Typically 5.5 to 6 months. I have never had a problem with tires, rear ends,engines, seals, or anything else. Today's tires will not flat spot over 6 months with a little extra air in them.

We live in an extreme winter climate. Lots of snow---lots of cold. Starting a engine in extremely cold temperartures is one of the roughest things an engine ever endures. Synthetics help here, but nevertheless, it's not the same as starting in warmer conditions. Second, I don't believe you can heat an engine up enough idling to rid itself of the impurities of combustion and moisture created any time you start an engine, much less in cold temps. I also don't think you'll ever blow all the moisture out of the exhaust system idling.

On the other hand, if you can get your car out for a little 'road work' every few weeks---go for it.

Steve
 

GR8_ASP

Enthusiast
Joined
May 28, 1998
Posts
5,637
Reaction score
1
Wow Steve, 5.5 months. I don't know how you do it. I normally put mine up at Thanksgiving or first week of December depending on the weather. Then it is ready for the road again by the end of March at the latest. So that is 4 months max. Can't be that much colder up there can it?

BTW did you make a decision about the differential or rocker arms?
 

Steve 00RT/10

Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 18, 2000
Posts
1,751
Reaction score
0
Location
Michigan
Hi Ron,

If it were only cold, it wouldn't be bad. It's the salt and snow. We typically get a foot or two in November. I push it as far as I can into November. I've been caught in snow more than once in October. The roads start getting salted with the first snows. Last year I put it away Nov. 7th. This year, November 9th. That's as far as I get. I won't do a lot of salt. Conversely in the spring, it's typically mid-April at the earliest before I can get it out because of the salt and mud on the roads. Even then, we often have snow after that. Several years ago, we had 23" come down in Mid-May over a 24 hour period. Ya gotta be tough to live up here!(or crazy)

Of course, I did get 10,000 miles on this past season. That keeps some of the withdrawal symptoms at bay.

As for the rear end....I have not decided yet on the ratio, but the next time we meet, there will be a different one in there. Most likely the whole assembly. This week, I'm leaning toward the 3:45. Kind of 'split the difference'

Still looking into the rockers too. I'm told the Arrows will work well and are considerably less money.

Steve
 

Viper Specialty

Legacy/Supporting Vendor
Supporting Vendor
Joined
Feb 14, 2002
Posts
5,828
Reaction score
132
Location
Cape Coral, FL
I generally start mine every 2 weeks-1 month MAX. I generally wait for a warmer day, 30+... though it really doesnt matter because our garage share two walls with the house, and stays around 30-40 degrees regaurdless of outside temp. I let it run for a good 20-30 mintues, and make sure everything is nice and hot before I turn it off. I am not worried about "frequent cold starts" because I use a pre-oiling system, I make sure evything is oiled for about 10 minutes before cranking the engine. never had a problem.... (and one HE!! of a way to heat the garage! LOL, I bet this car puts out 100,000 BTU when its hot...)
 

Steve 00RT/10

Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 18, 2000
Posts
1,751
Reaction score
0
Location
Michigan
I let it run for a good 20-30 mintues, and make sure everything is nice and hot before I turn it off.

I guess I'm from the old school in that I've always been told idling is not the proper way to get a car to operating temperature. I don't believe 'good and hot' for 20-30 munutes idling is the same, or as beneficial, as a good run on the highway for the same amount of time. I think you're still leaving some stuff in the engine from the combustion process when the engine only idles.

Even in the winter, most mechanics here will tell you that once you start your car and your oil pressure comes up, you should drive the car. Lots of car manuals same the same.

Steve
 

Firecat F7 Viper

Enthusiast
Joined
Dec 14, 2003
Posts
139
Reaction score
0
Location
N.J.
Tim,
This is also my first winter with my GTS.
I was thinking of putting mine away for the winter and droping most insurance but decided to keep full insurance coverage on it so I can drive it on salt free days. I plan on going for a nice long drive tomorrow. I am not too worried about cold starts(I have a ****** car that is always cold started and sits outside for the last 19 years and has never given me a problem--I don't think the viper should be any different) plus my garage stays fairly warm where I keep the viper. It is gonna be a beautiful sunny day tomorrow with the high temperature of 13 degrees!! Sure the tires might be a little slippery but I am sure all the heat from the V-10 is gonna feel awfully nice inside.
Can't wait...this is my first ride since christmas now that the roads are all clear.
Bruce
 

Tom F&L GoR

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 3, 2000
Posts
4,984
Reaction score
7
Location
Wappingers Falls
The additives in today's oils will protect your engine during startup even if it sits for years; they don't run down with the oil into the pan since they are polar and prefer to stick to the metal. Antiwear additives (zinc-phosphorus compounds) and friction modifiers (can be a variety of types, but fuel economy standards require that they reduce friction even at moderately low oil temperatures) will be on the metal as long as they aren't washed off with water or overheated, neither of which will happen if the engine doesn't run.

Simply starting and idling for 20 minutes is probably the worst winter activity you can do. This situation is why the Sequence V test exists - lots of fuel consumed (so coolant temp is up) but light load so the oil never warms up. Meanwhile, condensation from combustion, raw fuel from running a little rich at startup, and blowby before the rings seal perfectly make a worst-case soup with the oil and leads to increased sludge and causes wear.

This situation is high wear because the anti-wear additives need a minimum temperature to partially decompose and allow the active component to attach to the metal. This happens continually while you drive; old additive gets worn off, fresh additive replaces it. If the oil doesn't get warm enough, the new additive doesn't come into play.

Sludge forms when the water in the oil overcomes the dispersant capability. There are many chemical reaction mechanisms, but the water-additive-"stuff" combination forms the slurry that settles in all the low spots and then never seems to go away, even after getting the oil hot.

From my oil temperature gauge I know that the oil doesn't reach coolant temperature (or even close to the boiling point of water) for 20-30 minutes of highway driving, so it's certainly not going to get up there in the driveway! If you won't drive it, it's safer to let it sit.
 

Matt M PA

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 2, 2000
Posts
1,582
Reaction score
0
Location
Langhorne, PA USA
Hey Tom...I hate to highjack this thread but I have an oil related question. So, I need to go off topic a bit.

Ford is using this new 5-20 oil "semi-synthetic" in their new cars. I have an '03 Cobra (factory supercharged) and Ford recommends this 5-20. Many of the Cobra guys are saying to use 5-30..and that this is needed as the 20 is just not thick enough to protect the engine over time. SVT says to not go to full synthetic until 5000 miles, but still is mum on the 5-30 deal.

As a layman, I can't understand why the 5-30 wouldn't be better,unless passages are too thin?

Your thoughts?
 

ViperRay

Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 2, 2003
Posts
846
Reaction score
0
Location
Topeka, KS
I agree with Tom and Steve. I have several "collector" cars that sit for long periods occasionally. Better not to start unless you're going to drive it and bring oil up to normal operating temp. If you do drive it, be sure to row through all the gears. You should consider changing the oil and filter prior to storage so that moisture and other contaminants don't form sludge and stick to engine parts causing more wear over time and changing it again if storage is really prolonged (greater than 18 months?) prior to starting. For really long storage, can remove spark plugs and add an ounce of motor oil to each cylinder, putting plugs back in and turning the engine to avoid rust forming in the bore (don't know if modern oil additives make this unnecessary but it can't hurt). Here's a few other things to consider doing depending upon how long and where the car will be stored.
-top off all fluid levels
-add fuel stabilizer
-keep battery charged
-wash car and wax and consider a car cover that allows the car to "breathe" so moisture is not trapped and cause oxidation
-leather conditioner, etc. on interior
-consider increasing tire pressure to prevent "flat-spotting" which probably isn't an issue with modern day radial tires (as opposed to bias ply)
-consider moving the car a little (manually) to keep the rear end gears covered with oil to prevent rust and to reduce any theoretical flat spotting of tires
-cover tailpipes with towel and rubber band so mice don't make a home in there

Personally, for my viper, it's a lot easier to take her for a drive when the groung is dry and giving it a quick wash again if necessary before putting it away.
 

carguy07

Viper Owner
Joined
Sep 24, 2002
Posts
2,310
Reaction score
0
Location
Cuyahoga Falls, OH, USA
Hey Tom...I hate to highjack this thread but I have an oil related question. So, I need to go off topic a bit.

Ford is using this new 5-20 oil "semi-synthetic" in their new cars. I have an '03 Cobra (factory supercharged) and Ford recommends this 5-20. Many of the Cobra guys are saying to use 5-30..and that this is needed as the 20 is just not thick enough to protect the engine over time. SVT says to not go to full synthetic until 5000 miles, but still is mum on the 5-30 deal.

As a layman, I can't understand why the 5-30 wouldn't be better,unless passages are too thin?

Your thoughts?

Same question for Tom but for 2001 Mercury Sable daily driver.
 

GR8_ASP

Enthusiast
Joined
May 28, 1998
Posts
5,637
Reaction score
1
I am in general aggreement with Tom, Steve et. al. I never start a car during storage unless I am working on it and starting it is a necessary step. If I do start it (only once in 8 years with Vipers) I let it run a minimum of time (actually only a few seconds. I know that is bad from an exhaust standpoint, but I am less concerned about exhaust with stainless and all than I am about increasing water and fuel in the oil.

Since my cars are on a lift or directly under one I have not had the ability to move them to help lubricate the trans or differential. No obvious problems with either to date. Note I have a semi-heated garage (keep it above 50) with tile so moisture levels are quite low. So that may help. Cars are always clean, polished and covered. Only activity through the winter is keeping a battery tender on them.
 
OP
OP
T

tim721

Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Posts
1,027
Reaction score
0
Location
west milford, nj
Well, I guess survey says let it sit. Overall it sounds like there is more potential harm in starting it than just leaving it alone. It wont be tucked away as long as some others are, but it'll probably be a solid 3 months.

Hey Bruce, where you from in NJ???
 

Tom F&L GoR

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 3, 2000
Posts
4,984
Reaction score
7
Location
Wappingers Falls
Re: 5W-20 or 5W-30

Although you can't separate the low and high temperature requirements when you formulate an oil, we can talk about the performance separately. Therefore, a 5W-20, a 5W-30, a 5W-40, a mineral 5W-xx or a synthetic 5W-xx will all have (within a small range) equivalent low temperature characteristics. Before anyone jumps, if a synthetic 5W-xx were "better" then it would become a 0W-xx, and would not be allowed to be called a 5W-xx anymore.

The second number designates the high temperature performance. An SAE 20 has a kinematic viscosity range of 5.6 to 9.3 cSt, an SAE 30 from 9.3 to 12.5 cSt, measured at 100C. This used to be a good enough specification, but perhaps 10 years ago a technique used to measure the oil film thickness in a running engine main bearing was used to see what the engine saw, and an additional specification was introduced called High Temperature, High Shear Viscosity. The bench measurement correlated with the oil film thickness measurement and was adopted for SAE J300.

The spec measures oil viscosity at 150C and a higher shear rate of 10^6 reciprocal seconds (more like bearing conditions.) For an SAE xxW-20, the minimum is 2.6 cP, for an SAE xxW-30 and SAE xxW-40 the minimum is 2.9 cP, and for SAE 15W-40 and higher grades, the min is 3.7 cP.

Since the requirement was put into place because it closely correlated with oil film thickness in a bearing, it would say an SAE 30 provides thicker oil films than an SAE 20.

OEMs have learned to make crank throws, bearings, cylinders, etc, "rounder" and with more precision than ever, so they don't need the thick oil films they used to in order to prevent wear. Since the lower viscosity provides better fuel economy (and because they used the 5W-20 to generate the CAFE number) they are obligated to advise consumers to use the 5W-20. There should be some comfort in taking the advice, since they would have met all the durability characteristics of the engine with the 5W-20. Except for fuel economy (and potential hassle with the dealership for warranty service) there isn't a real-world problem with the 5W-30.

It's a matter of asking "the Cobra guys" how they determined the 5W-20 wasn't providing enough wear protection over time.
 

GTS Bruce

Enthusiast
Joined
Dec 29, 2000
Posts
3,328
Reaction score
0
Location
Orchard Park,NY,USA
I start and run mine at least every 3 weeks.Run for 1/2 hour in garage with open door.Garage temp never dips below 62.Run to warm up,Fast idle,Run switches and controls through all positions.Circulate all fluids.Roll out of grage and up and down driveway coating all rear end and trans gears. Bruce
 

Viper Specialty

Legacy/Supporting Vendor
Supporting Vendor
Joined
Feb 14, 2002
Posts
5,828
Reaction score
132
Location
Cape Coral, FL
I dont have the "cold oil problem"... one of the other benefits of a radiator with an internal cooler. The oil heats up MUCH faster, and remains more consistant. My oil hits coolant temp within ~5 minutes of the thermostat opening. I am really not to worried about fowling plugs and such, I replace them every spring anyway. I generally drive the car every 2 months or so over winter, as our temp is like a roller coaster over winter...UUUUPPPP and dddooowwnnn..........

Bruce- Trans fluids circulate without moving the car, just letting off the clutch will do it. Rear end is a must-move situation though...
 
OP
OP
T

tim721

Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Posts
1,027
Reaction score
0
Location
west milford, nj
Bruce, I'm from Lyndhurst, about a mile from Giants Stadium. I thought maybe I had seen you around...Just recently there have been a few coupes driving around my neighborhood.

I'm sure I'll see you at Tators :2tu:
 

Matt M PA

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 2, 2000
Posts
1,582
Reaction score
0
Location
Langhorne, PA USA
Tom F&L...THANKS!

I am sorry that I did no respond until now. (I picked up food poisoning that kept me sidelined for a while)

Anyhow, thanks again. There is a "oil" guy over a svtperformance.com, but I really was more interested in your input. the "Terminator" board is really very informative.

One more thing. Some of the Cobra guy's agruements lie around (according to them) that Ford only sells 5-20 in the US. The Europe, "the same" engines are rated for 5-30. They claim that the wear-damage will occur after the warranty has lapsed so Ford could care less about it.
 

Tom F&L GoR

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 3, 2000
Posts
4,984
Reaction score
7
Location
Wappingers Falls
True, when I was with Texaco we made a Ford factory fill 5W30, it had both gasoline and diesel performance, a synthetic-level quality base oil, and lots of a Moly friction modifier. It was used by the Jaguar F1 team (for the time TX sponsored them) Only used for European engines, as it was deemed too expensive for dealers to carry in the US. Same engines (all built in Europe) were filled with oil that was only API quality to be sent to the US.

The emissions and fuel economy requirements (for engine oil) are different in Europe; until those come closer to US requirements, there will be different factory fill oils.

While the oils are vastly different, it's still a step away from saying that going one lower viscosity grade will cause long term wear problems, especially when the majority of Ford engines worldwide are (probably?) in the US market.

Glad you're better.
 
Top