Tech help needed re: Tuning bugs

[WESTCOAST JASON]

I have a few issues I have not been able to figure out and wanted to tap into the vast VCA pool of info.

The car in question is my 98 GTS with a Twin Turbo kit currently set at low boost (5-7psi)

The first issue is a recuring 'Gross Evap leak' - If you have any more info than what the manual says about this or experience with please fill me in. I have put a one way valve in the signal line for it with the thought that boost was affecting it but that made no difference.

Second issue is Random Misfire code - during low rpm light acceleration (1000-2000rpm) the check engine light starts flashing and it sets a misfire code. At times the code is a particular cylinder, at other times it is the random code. Problem consistent even after plug and wire change.

Lastly, I recently sold my Motons and went back to stock shocks and springs (springs have 1 coil cut off for 1" lowering) and I must have become spoiled with the springs on the motons (they were red Eibach's) because I am not happy with the handling anymore. What spring is recommended for a 'tight' or 'hard' setup that will be closer to a track only setting like the motons were?

Thanks in advance!

 

[GTS Dean]

Jason -

All I can offer on the evap situation is that the system is designed to purge to intake manifold vacuum. If you are on boost, you may be getting backflow. Once again, this advice - you've got to look into the engine management systems on the PT Turbo. How do they deal with spark retard and evap purge on that platform?

 

[1TONY1]

Is there a sensor on the evap system somewhere ?? If so the sensor could be deleted/unplugged and jumpered or whatever it takes (resistor) to feed the ecu the info it likes.
On your other code, what is the code # that you are getting. Is that what the book says: missfire code?

 

[WESTCOAST JASON]

The codes on the misfire vary but they are all P0303-A or P0307A (with the changing # being the cylinder that detected it) etc. There is also a P0300-A which is a multiple misfire set. I was thinking maybe the spark was being 'blown' out, but this only happens at low RPM with very slight acceleration. I also thought maybe voltage, but now with a dual battery setup in the car, that thought is cancelled.

As far as the fooling of the Evap, I have not thought about that yet. The original tuner was hoping that it was fixable with a one-way valve, but like many of the issues, it has not gone away with hope.... the code on it is P0455 (if memory serves)


Thanks

 

[HP]

Jason, you didn't mention what - one way valve -
you are using to replace the PVC. If you suspect that
part- I can give you the part # and, best price supplier, for
a KrankVent- one way valve - Last time I checked it was around
$65.

 

[WESTCOAST JASON]

Thanks HP, I would appreciate that, I am not even using a one-way on the PCV. Just one on the signal line to the EVAP canister. Being a 98 would my car benefit from the PCV one-way? I know that there were some differences in some GEN2's as far as location and effectiveness of the factory PCV's. Any info appreciated...

 

[Chuck B 98 GTS]

Jason, I have a 98 GTS and have no tuning issues you are talking about and I've had my DLM car for over three years now. I don't know anything about the valve and I don't know of a reason why boost would effect this? Maybe somebody else could answer this or give Doug Levin Motorsports a call.

Cheers,
Chuck

 

[WESTCOAST JASON]

DLM? You reading this? Could use some wisdom

before I go any crazier.... any thoughts would be great.

 

[HP]

There are two uses for the precision type one-way valves
1. as a method of keeping crankcase pressure under control
2. as a replacement for the PVC valve - in forced induction
applications - It's just a fancy precision PCV valve- but it eliminates the question of intake pressure leaking to crankcase.

So you can go to the Krankvent website and buy a set of vents
for each valve cover at $125 to cover both uses - 1 and 2 above.
or you can go to www.gopartsdirect.com and click on Harley
then clic on onlinecataloge air breather section and find
a selection of single vents for $75 each - for PVC replacement.

Or you can just block off the intake where the PCV hose plugs in - and put a breather on the valve cover.

Sean also has a list of alternatives for this problem -
Ask someone with his S/C mod, they can tell you.

 

[LTHL VPR]

Your misfire code is very common in cars with 'aggressive' camshaft profiles. You will probably notice that your car surges after this code appears. Your Viper must be a 2000 or later model year (most common years to trigger the code).

We may be able to help you out. Call us on Tues (we are closed on Mondays).
Thx.
-Wayne

 

[WESTCOAST JASON]

This car is a 98 with a stock cam. This misfire code (along with all the other problems) only started after the turbos were installed (fyi). To clarify on the EVAP issue, the code relates to a GROSS LEAK in the EVAP system, which MUST be sealed most of the time as the gas cap 'hisses' when removed to refill the tank. The PCV info is usefull and I will do that mod also, but other than a signal line (vac line with one-way on it) is the PCV related to EVAP? Thanks again to everyone for their .02 - we'll get to $1 soon!

 

[kverges]

Look carefully at how the EVAP emissions system works and what GROSS LEAK means. I had a similar problem with my '98 when it was brand new and bone stock, and my recollection is that the EVAP system actually includes a vacuum pump that cycles and checks for leaks anywhere in its system. Is it possible that the TT system plumbing creates a leak in the EVAP system? What I am thinking is that the pump runs, and either cannot pull sufficient vacuum or the vacuum does not hold for the required time.

Really a shot in the dark, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

 

[Vipermed 97.01]

actually a pretty good shot in the dark,it is very likely that is where your problem is,you have a leak detection pump(LDP), a LDP selenoid and a LDP pressure switch all are located in the left side facia behind access cover and mounts to the radiator support the pump mounts on top of the EVAP canister and if you dont have a good seal there you have found your problem,either way you can narrow it down to that area,also insure 5that the pressure switch is functioning properly,hope this helps

 

[WESTCOAST JASON]

Thanks guys, thats what I did so it led to putting the one way vacuum valve on the signal line under the fascia. The description of how the system works makes sense in the book and I will check the valve to be sure it is pointing the right way. There were fuel smell problems from under the rear deck panel that gives access to the factory fuel pump originally also. It has now been sealed to eliminate the odor, but a leak could be there also? I was just thinking that since it 'hissed' when the gas cap was removed that it would be logical that the system is sealed. (Vipermed, THANKS a million for getting me the flex - everyone here should know that you are da'MAN!!!!!)

Any thoughts on idle hunting also? Although I did not mention it, high idle is another problem that has surfaced. Once I get the new flex on the other side I figured I would 'listen' for air leaks. The exhaust leak makes this temporarily impossible. I have not yet removed and inspected the IAC valve...

 

[Ulysses]

With OBDii systems, the evap leak code usually means that there is a leak in the line to the canister. Look it over very carefully. It's a very common problem.

The second most common problem with that kind of a code is a bad sensor. If you can find no leak, check the sensor out.

With a misfire code, a lot of people check the plugs and wires but forget to diagnose the coil packs. Have a look.

 

[WESTCOAST JASON]

Thanks - once I get the other new flex pipe in and installed I will do a check of the sensor via the method shown in the Dodge Repair manual. Does the EVAP system do anything other than help with emmisions?

 

[Ulysses]

It helps vent the gas tank pressure.

P.S. EVAP GROSS LEAK can be caused by a bad or loose gas cap as well.

 

[davem]

Jason,
I cant tell from your pics, but it looks like you are wrapping your turbo manifold with heat cloth - are you wrapping the flex pipe too? I can't tell. Not such a good idea, make up some stainless heat shields instead and have the pipes Jet-Hot coated. The high temp ceramic coating will pull all kinds of heat out of there - you can have the turbo exhaust housing done too. Trust me on this, we've done several before/after comparisons on some of the custom turbo motorcycles and snowmobiles we have done.

That silicon coupler that is melted will have to be replaced by welding an aluminum extension onto the turbo to get it away from the exhaust manifold, then you can put the coupler in.

Check your motor mounts, mine were broken - looks like finding a way to keep the motor from moving so much may help that flex live longer. A.P.I. makes these, I think JC Whitney stocks them or you can buy direct.

good luck,
Dave.

 

[WESTCOAST JASON]

Thanks Dave. The flex is not wrapped, but both ends were. I will avoid that and use sheilds upon re-install. Your thoughts about heat doing it are in line with a number of other people. The fact that the flex has pressured exhaust now also has been a point of discussion. And lastly, (and maybe most important) by design, the flex must be completley collapsed to install it. The factory flex in normal condition is almost 2 inches longer than after it is installed in the car.....

 

[KepRght]

im guessing this flex issue is the reason DaveM doesn't want to use the stock headders or exhaust for their turbo kit?

 

[WESTCOAST JASON]

Not sure, however, I have found that it is not the best idea to use the flex since it is not designed to be pressurized. Both Dodge (Team Viper) and some tuners all agree. There are aftermarket flex pipes available and that is what I will be looking into....

 

[1TONY1]

Jason, There is a 1/8 or 3/16 size hard plastic line that normally goes to the left front of the stock intake. It runs on top of the frame near the steering pump. Where does yours now connect ? iIs it to a source that is under boost ?

 

[WESTCOAST JASON]

Tony, not sure which line to look at, what does that line connect to on each end? (will help me ID the line in question) thanks

 

[Bob Woodhouse]

Jason, Re your springs: It sounds like you are staying with stock shocks, if that is the case, cut coils are simply bad business and you need to lower the car using the upper spring perches from Collectors Choice or adjustable perch from Northwind engrg. I would choose early ACR springs, say before 2000. Our cars cannot stand more that 900 to 1000 lb springs on a stock chassis without causing other problems (that could start an argument but I am willing to defend it). Lots of outside influences on choosing a spring. If you prefer to come up with aftermarket use a front rate in the 400 to 600 range and go up 200 lbs for the rear keeping about that amount of spread. Hope this helps

 

[WESTCOAST JASON]

Call me crazy, but I personally miss the old look/feel of the board.....

Anyway, thank you Woodhouse for the info. I went with Eibach and am completley satisfied with their product for now. Not anything like the moton setup I had, but good enough for now.

The PCV (CCV as it is called in the manual) is still hooked up and looks like boost is being put into the crankcase. There are two fittings, one on each side of the intake that connect to a gray orifice fitting (thats how the manual describes it) that then goes down to the lower, underside, of the runners. I would imagine that the boost being put into this is not desirable? Should I vent the 'gray orifice' connector to atmosphere and plug the intake feeds to it? This may be a cause of my oil control problems that occur ever since the turbos were installed..... I do have an elaborate routing of vent tubes that go from the turbo oil pan vents, to the valve cover vents, then all 'T'd into a line that is run into just behind the drivers air cleaner. Originally the oil pan vents (on the turbos) were spraying oil under boost which is what led to this 'wild' hose routing I had to do...... .02 from anyone again is appreciated.... Being on this deserted island *****!

 

[HP]

Jason - Why don't you do what you proposed - plug the 2 intake ports and
vent the valve cover to the atmosphere(with mini-filter) -
It's worth a try, besides that was the set up on all cars 30 years ago -
before emission regulations. It can't hurt anything.

 

[WESTCOAST JASON]

A great idea that I may be moving forward on.

However, This being my only car and the fact that between work and kids I am having a hell of a time keeping it on the road, much less, running how it should be. I can drive it at 5 psi all day just fine, but it is made to do 2.5x that. This has brought me to some sobering thoughts. If there is someone out there that has the resources to tune this turbo kit, (I don't) , I would be willing to start some PM's regarding the removal of this kit and the install of it (side by side swap) to get my car back to stock. I am putting too many miles on it daily to be trying to deal, and cope with a failed tuners errors and mistakes. Someone that does not rely on this car to get to work and that has a little bit of resource could get the kit finished how it should have been. I do believe with someone like Levin or Heffner under the hood, this headache could be gone in a short time. Anyhow, if you are interested, drop me a PM and we can arrange a drive for you and decide what shop should do the work and what kind of $$'s I would want.

 

[1TONY1]

I think you just have some minor problems. Don't give up so soon. Go buy a $3000 car and let someone else have the Viper for a month. What are the nearest tuners to you ?

Edit: Compile a list of problems and post them here are pm me and lets see if we can find a solution or somene that can solve them. I did not realize your problems were serious enough to warrant a drastic change.

 

[Cris]

Jason,

A thought regarding your oil issue. The PT turbo adds a check valve between the PCV (CCV) valve and the intake. This is to prevent pressurized air from going through the PCV system. When that occurs the air velocity in the PCV system is too high and in the make-up air direction (toward the air filter housing), where oil separation is poorer. A simple in-line splice and check valve installation should fix it. You could even use the PT turbo valve (should be cheap enough). Make sure it is oriented properly tough. Normal flow toward the intake.

 

[WESTCOAST JASON]

Thanks Cris. I have a CCV mod now going on that may fix that issue! Both Scott (ViperMed) at Elite and Doug Levin have been so very helpful to me in keeping the car reliable during this stormy time. Scott for his relentless willingness to send test parts and Doug for his selfless time on the phone for hours on end. I want to thank both of them for so much they have done in both knowledge and product just out of the kindness of their heart. I can honestly say they will both be doing Vipers 10 years from now and I wish I knew them better late last year.

To all considering Viper mods, DRIVE a car made by your chosen tuner before spending money. (Or at least talk to more than just one owner of a tuners car to get a real picture of what to expect)