Viper Handling vs. Z06 handling

[MannyC]

Guys,

Just an observation, but perhaps you can help this noobie (me) out. I have two 94 RT/10's. One is basically stock while the other has like $60K in upgrades to make it very much a track car, including upgraded EVERYTHING.

So today, while driving the Z06, I **** the steering wheel back and forth and the car is solid -- no leaning, no twisting, no nothing... it turns instantly without hesitation with each ****.

The Vipers (even the modded one with race suspension) does not feel this way. As I **** the steering wheel back and forth, the car feels like the response is slow. It feels like the rear end turns just a bit after the front end does. It doesn't feel anywhere near as solid as the Z06.

So my question is, is this normal for all Vipers, or is it only on RT/10's since they are convertibles and perhaps not as structurally stiff as a coupe is? I haven't driven a Gen2, so it this localized to just the Gen I's?

When I bought the car, I was told the car handles 150% better than a Gen II does, now with all the upgrades. So, I am just curious. I know the technology in my Z06 is many years newer than a stock Viper, but this isn't a stock Viper and the upgraded technology in it is newer than that of my Z06.

Sorry if I am not explaining this clearly, but I am having a hard time describing the feeling. It feels almost like there is a slight bit of body roll (hesitation) from left to right, where the Z06 doesn't have this at all.

Thanks for any help you can give me.

 

[Steve-Indy]

Others with more track experience will hopefully answer your questions...but, from my own STREET experience, our 95 feels more like a go-cart, and "handles" at the low end of our Vipers (even after switching to Mxx3's)...remember this is "street" use...96RT/10 suspension is upgraded, has Mxx3's, and seems better to me (would note that I felt this way BEFORE I really knew the actual suspension differences) and is "tighter" after Recall 998...97 GTS feels good, and I prefer it's overall feel(now tighter with Recall 998)...99ACR is, well an ACR (not sure Recall 999 changed much, but really hane not driven it much since work done...2001 GTS is a good ride, decent handling car ...and SRT-10 beats them ALL !!!

I also think that the Z 06 is a heck of a bargain that "delivers".

Hopefully, this will stir some debate/responses amongst those with more pertinent experience than mine.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Hey, this could start something...

I was at the NE VCA Rendezvous at Englishtown and ran the yellow SRT-10 in the AX event. I was three seconds faster (34's vs 31's) in my '94 Gen 1 than the '03 car. My car is "only" a daily driver street car, with stock rubber suspension arm bushings, but plastic sway bar bushings, stiffer springs (550F/800R), but OEM shocks, stock rims, but Kuhmos, no ABS and stock front brakes, but upgraded rear calipers, a little toe-out, but otherwise stock alignment... nothing high dollar at all.

If you want to pursue something not right with the old car, look for slop in the steering rack (I replaced an inner tie rod) or underinflated tires. Depending on your track set-up, you may still have toe-in and toe-out will quicken that turn-in feeling. Toe in the rear also affects this.

Looking for basic reasons, I think the Z06 is 400 pounds lighter, and that will show up as the difference you described. My winter project list includes a Gen 2 aluminum front suspension and the '98 tubular exhaust manifolds to cut weight off the front of the car.

I think there's a Viper brochure that lists structural stiffness of the RT and GTS; I forget the units, but thought the numbers were within 10% in the "frame twist" measurement.

Do I foresee a Gen 1 vs. Gen 2 vs. Gen 3 autocross event?

 

[MannyC]

Well I will be tracking the Gen I at Willow Springs on July 23rd. Only $125 for the day. Anybody else going?

 

[V10 MOJO]

my .02 worth. my viper handles much better than a Z06. friend of mine has a nice Z06 and after driving it, im glad i have a viper (actually thats his goal in a few yrs, LOL) at the track and on the road, superior in every form of handling and performance.

my handling upgrades may have a bit to do with it too, i dont know as i nver compared the two when my viper was stock.

 

[MannyC]

What kind of Viper do you have and what upgrades did you make rdustman?

 

[BigCarrot]

I feel as if you got it EXACTLY backwards! I've driven both, a LOT, and I think my Viper is much more responsive. My 2 cents.

 

[Mike Brunton]

I'm with BigCarrot.

When I drove a Z06 my first impression was the handling was nowhere near as "right now" as my GTS was.

Maybe something in your mods has slowed down response time?

 

[Steve-Indy]

Right on, Tom...maybe we need a little more baiting...

 

[agentf1]

Drop your viper off at my house and I will let you know. I do think the Z06 handles great but don't have any lenghty seat time in a viper for an honest comparo.

 

[jamesp]

Not a big poster here, but I thought I'd chime in and add my .02 cents.

I've owned my 96 GTS for about 3 1/2 years, and about a year ago I bought a Z06 hoping to have a Viper-like second car, but more of a daily driver. It was what I expected in that area. Nice performing car, and great for a daily driver. Much more tame to drive and doesn't take much getting use to.

However, when I returned from a local VCA track day having taken my Z06, I sold it less than a week later. I'm no racecar driver by any means, but the track day in my Z06 was quite poor. Having read all of the reviews in the magazines about how great the Z06 was on the track, how it was the best Corvette in 50 years and all that stuff really had me believing that this track day would be great. The car handled much like my 2003 Expedition would. It was so loose and bouncy (sorry not technical race terms). The feel in my Viper was so much more real and tight. I could really feel what the car was doing on the track and read what was happening. The Z06 was so spongy I had to keep letting off the gas for fear I was drifting or sliding.

Again, I'm not a techincal writer for a car magazine but in my few short months with my Z06 I would say it was a great daily driver but definitely not in the same league on the track as the Viper in handling and especially acceleration. Not to mention that nobody would give the Z06 a second look when I drove it, which is definitely not the case when I drive the Viper.

My .02 cents, for what its worth.

 

[REDSLED]

Manny, I'm sorry to inform you that it has been my experience as well as others with more extensive track experience that even a Gen 1 car with heavy suspension work (ie: Penske or Moton shocks, monoballs, etc) will not be 150% better than a stock Gen 2 suspension. There are certain suspension geometry urgrades found in the Gen 2 suspension that cannot be replicated in the Gen 1 no matter what shock upgrade you go with. Your souped up Gen 1 can't be compared to a ZO6 due to the different suspension set ups. You can only go so far with the Gen 1 technology. (No offense Gen 1 owners) Just like the Gen 2 cars will have their limitations as well when compared to the Gen 3's. Although this hasn't been proven yet as not many Gen 3's have seen extensive track time yet. But you get the picture. You'll have to learn the characteristics of both cars and how they perform on the track. Just like Gen 2 RT/10's & Gen 2 GTS' have identical suspensions but it's been my experience, as well as other RT/10 owners I track with that, the RT/10 gets a little light in the rear end in some turns while the GTS stays planted. You have to compare apples to apples. Also driver experience & talent can make all the difference in the world. One of the fastest guys I know drives a stock GTS and he beats the pants off of people with their $15K+ suspensions and 600+ HP engines. You'll know how well your Gen 1 handles next week at Willow Springs when you're flying around turn 8 at 130 MPH Good luck.-Jonathan

 

[MannyC]

Jonathan, I own your previous RT/10. I also own a new one. Both of them have a 'looser' feeling than my Z06, at least to me. I'm not talking about full on racing. I'm talking about a 40 to 50 MPH roll and then yanking the steering wheel quickly from left to right. Z06 snaps from left to right immediately, with no loose feeling, no body roll feeling, no nothing -- like a go-cart. I don't get that from either of the two vipers I have. Could it be the bigger tires on the Viper, and that is what I am feeling?

I would be more than happy to have one of you local San Diego Gen II RT/10 owners come over to my place and drive both the Z06 and my Viper with me, so you can tell me what you think. Maybe you can return the favor and let me drive your Gen II with you, so I can see the difference between the two. Hey, that way I will finally know another Viper owner in this area, since I know only one so far, and he is not an enthusiast (just a rich neighbor that complains about how stiff his new GTS is -- he owns the REalDoll.com company.)

 

[V10 MOJO]

my upgrades; alignment setting changes, energy suspension package, rotors, brake lines, eiboch springs, adjusted koni's, and delrin setup. handles like its on rails and ive NEVER driven anything with better responsiveness or handling to date! (closest thing was, ironically, my wifes RennTech mercedes, LOL)

 

[LETHAL GTS]

I have a Gen 1 and Gen 2. The comparisons made between the two here are correct as far as I'm concerned (Gen 2 handling better than the Gen 1). However, the Gen 1 is stiffer feeling.
I have never owned a Z06, but have two friends that do. I have driven them and one at a race school. Not for me. I want a car that is as close to a true track car as you can get out of the box and either the Gen 1 or the Gen 2 have got the Z06 beat in this regard. I'm not not knocking the vette, because I've loved vettes for years. But either there is something not quite right with your Gen 1 or it's just not your cup of tea.
I think trying someone elses Snake may shed some light on your question.

 

[Russ M]

Its might be due to the allignment on the car. A track allignment seems to feel a bit more wishy washie than a street aligment. But maybe its just me. What kind of tires are the cars on also? The Zo6 comes with a a much better tire than any factory Viper ever did especialy gen 1's.

Besides that is no way to test the capabilities, take both cars to Willow and see what kind of lap times you are getting out of them.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

RedSled, the neat part about autocross or road race setups is that they don't have to be expensive to be good. You just have to make the driver comfortable so he/she can use all the tire capability. For less than a grand I have a Gen 1 suspension (no cutting or welding, just "tuning" and half that price is custom machining on the rear brakes) that surpassed a Gen 3 (with more power and with ABS.)

**, **, **... How many of the VCA Rendezvous winners are bringing their cars to the October 4 run-off? Any Gen 2 or Gen 3 owners? I'll drive the 13 hours from NY if we can run our cars at Chelsea and compare.

(Steve-Indy, how's that for bait?)

 

[kverges]

It is also very attributable to driver skill & experience - objective handling performance is nearly impossible with all the variables out there.

 

[MannyC]

Guys, my commnents were not about whether the Z06 can out handle a Viper. I've tracked the Z06 a few times and have hung with most of the Vipers on the road course track, and that is with a stock Z06. They were a bit faster in the straights, but I seemed to be faster through the turns. I'll have the Viper out at the track next week and will finally know what it can do as well.

Anyway, my comment was more of why I was feeling a squishy feeling in the viper when snaking the viper down a straigh road, while I didn't feel it with the Z06. I think it could be a combination of things -- the alignment on the vette is set up slightly for a track, but so is the viper. However, the previous owner just told me he has the suspension set so that it is no super stiff as it performed better for him on the road courses. I'll see what West Coast Vipers thinks when I drop the car off later this week.

 

[ChrisGTS]

Here's my opinion on this issue. I owned and autocrossed a 2001 Z06 for 2 years before getting rid of it in favor of my 2002 GTS. I have also autocrossed the GTS several times now. I have driven both cars on the track (different tracks, though). I am convinced that the GTS handles better.

The balance and "feel" of the cars are very similar, with several exceptions: (1) I think the turn-in for the Viper is more responsive than the Z06 and (2) I believe the Viper has more lateral grip than the Z06. My short-hand way of comparing them is to say that the Viper drives like a Z06, but with more of everything.

The only bad habit I have noticed in the Viper that the Z06 did not have was a tendency for throttle-off oversteer. This is easy to control once you know to expect it, but it caused me a couple of spins!

I believe that the Viper's handling is influenced heavily by the tires; the Michelin Pilot Sports are superior to the Goodyears that come with the Z06. I think that would explain the differences in "feel" that I described. I have noticed, however, that tire pressures GREATLY influence the Viper's handling, and I am still working on refining that.

In an absolute sense, the handling differences between the two cars are certainly capable of being overcome by driver skill. But, based on my experience on-track and in autocross with both cars, I believe I would be faster in either environment with my Viper.


P.S.: I don't feel any squishiness in my Viper at all. That may be a Gen I thing. My Viper feels more responsive than the Z06, not less. It feels absolutely wonderful in a slalom.

 

[phiebert]

For what it is worth, coming from a crappy racer, I took third place in our local Viper autocross event with my Gen I car. First and second were taken by Gen III SRT's and much better drivers. But from there on I think the drivers were pretty much similar. So despite the fact that everyone thinks the Gen II is much better than the Gen I in handling, I think it is just a matter of what you are expecting from the car.

I went from a Porsche 911 to the Gen I and had to re-learn how to drive! The Porsche (maybe a little like the Z06) is very forgiving. The Gen I Viper is not! It took a lot of spins to figure it out but now I am confident that I can hang with the big boys in my Gen I. I have absolutely no brake or suspension upgrades and my Nitrous was off during the autocross racing (doesn't help to have 800 ft/lbs of torque in the autocross!).

I haven't officially autocrossed against a Z06 but did a nice mountain highway against a Z06 and a Ferrari 360 Modena (I think that's what they are called). The Ferrari hung onto corners better than I did but I caught him in every straight. I did stay close in the corners too. When the Ferrari and I were done, probably about 10 miles later, the Corvette was nearly out of site behind us and the 360 and I had been trading leads for the whole time.

I think really high tire pressure helps on the Gen I handling feel. I had mine at about 40 PSI all around for autocross. That was hard for me to get used to though because I was used to taking the rears down to 18 PSI for drag racing. I have Pilots all around right now but have been thinking about going with the stickier Kumho's next time I change tires.

I haven't driven a Z06 but had a ride in one and it did feel responsive. So much of it is about the driver that it's better to take the advice of those that have driven both back to back. The rest of us just get used to our cars and drive them better than something we aren't used to driving.

 

[Russ M]

I dont believe in the Gen1 suspension being so much out classed by the Gen 2 and the same for the Gen 3. Suspension geometry is not rocket science, car designers have not had any amazing suspension break throughs in a long time.

You can take any car and make it handle better than another with the right components, just look at what some of the old Datsun 510's and z's can do when set up correctly.

 

[Fast Freddy]

the handling of these vipers and c-5 vettes are different. i have owned three c-5 vettes with various types of suspensions (adjustable, z-51 and aftermaket setup for autocross). regardless of the type of suspension u have on a zo6 it is still going to handle different than any type viper (gen-1, gen-2, rt-10, acr or srt) for the following reasons: 1st and foremost a c-5 vette has a longer wheelbase at 104 inches compared to a gen-1 and gen-2 viper at 96 inches. also the vette has a lower center of gravity and 200 lbs less weight. also the vette has a transaxle which makes the front to rear weight distribution in the car better than a viper. all of these things make the vette handle better than the viper. the viper has a coilover suspension system which the vette does not. this helps the viper. the vipers rear wheels and tires are much wider than a vette to cope with 100 ft lbs. of more torque. unfortunately this creates more unsprung weight which degrades handling. it is my opinion that these differences are the reasons that a c-5 vette can be modified (read major $$$$$$) to beat a viper on the professional road course racing circuit. case in point: "lemans" viper - vette wars. the vipers engine has more horsepower as a result of 10 cylinders and more reliability as a result of this and a more durable tranny and rear end 2. the viper beats the vette in the straights. but the vette beats the viper in braking as a result of less weight, etc. and beats the viper in cornering as result of a better chassis design. so on the street viper rocks, but at lemans vette wins. in the end it is much easier to swap motors, trannies, rear ends, etc. and modify suspensions, etc. but it is pretty hard to alter wheelbases, centers of gravity, polar moments and alter design elements built into the design of a cars unibody, chassis or monocoque. therefore when money is no object, this is where the rubber meets the road for serious pro road race teams. its all about engineering good chassis designs.

 

[GR8_ASP]

FastFreddy I think you need to check some of your facts. I am not knowledgeable in all regards but I question some of the statements. The first one that caught my eye was the weight distribution. Isn't the Viper near 50-50. If so how does the vette transaxle impact that? Regarding the center of gravity can you inform us the height of the CG for both the vette and viper. I have heard vette people state this before but I have yet to see a single analysis showing the numbers behind the theory. Note also the powertrain was lowered significantly for the SRT so a CG comparison for the Gen II would not suffice for the SRT.

In stock form the viper handles better. This is definitely true for the SRT but in most venues true for the Gen II. This is based on capabilities in the hands of experts. It does not say anything about how easy it is to approach the limit. I believe everyone is in agreement the vette is easier to drive close to the limit. But professionals do not get paid to drive easy, some have to work hard at it.

You are right about the unsprung weight but forgetting that the extra tire contact is also in play for handling.

Your case in point about lemans does not hold water. First the lemans vette has almost nothing in common with the street car. Frame, suspension, engine, etc. So to use it as a comparison point for the street car is not reasonable. I would say that for the GTSR as well. It had significant improvements throughout. It was much closer to the viper street car than the lemans vette is to the street vette, but still significantly different. And in the racing system there are significant "penalties" that are provided to the viper like extra weight and restrictor plates. I believe the viper was also saddled with a tire width restriction, with racing tires narrower than stock. With factory support Oreca was able to overcome those hurdles but the privateers are not able to. That shouldn't surprise anyone as privateers fight an uphill battle against oem sponsors. Remember when Oreca was a Chrysler sponsored team they won 3 straight Lemans. Their last year was the first year for the vette team if I remember correctly and the Oreca vipers stomped the vettes. At that same tiime the privateer vipers were well behind, indicating the factory sponsorship and great race team were much more important than the base car. The bottom line is since the race cars share so little with the production cars, especially the lemans vette and GTSR, it is impractical to use them as leverage in a production car comparison.

 

[Fast Freddy]

well said ron. u take my facts and make them sound better.

 

[onerareviper]

Not sure about a Z06 or a Gen I, but my Gen II has IMMEDIATE turn in. Lightning quick (Instant), with absolutely NO body roll. None. Even at 70-85 MPH with quick left-right-left-right turns. I can't imagine the turn-in being any quicker, and the car has no body roll.

 

[Snakester]

FYI the Z06's weight balance is 53%/47% compared to the Viper's 48%/52% weight balance. Both cars are pretty close to 50/50 balance, with the SRT-10 Viper being dead-on 50%/50%.

I drove a Z06 (lowered) and it did have a nice handling feel, with a relatively comfortable ride. I haven't driven in a Gen I yet, but my Viper definitely feels crisper. I did lower mine slightly (5/8") and replace the rubber bushings with urethane ones. but the turn-in is very quick and precise. Bad roads can unseetle the Viper more, and the bigger tires can follow the road grooves and slopes, so you need to pay attention to driving.

But the Viper definitely feels more like a racecar to me than the Z06. Still the Z06 would surely make a better commute car, despite it's grippy handling capabilities.

-Dean.

 

[MannyC]

The Z06 is a fantastic daily driver. The viper is a toad for a daily driver compared to the Z06. This is why it is sooooo hard for me to sell my Z06 and just keep the viper -- the Z06 has all the creature comforts -- power everything, memory, heads up display, auto dimming mirrors, nice and quiet, super comfy seats, much more leg room for taller guys, tons of safety features (air bags, various levels of traction conrol, etc.)

Thing is, they just don't look as cool, driving daily

Anyway, I AM selling my Z06 and my other Viper and keeping just the one, and my Ford F150 truck will become by daily driver for now (trading it in on a Denali.)

 

[Docta Vipa]

I have a Viper and Z06 (both 2001 & yellow) and have tracked them extensively. So far my lap times are the same. I am in the process of working up the cajones to drive the Viper any faster - I am sure it is capable of a lot more. I have a lot more faith in the Z06 brakes, based on the amount of power assist they have. This kills my lap times as I am braking a lot sooner. As a daily driver, I was expecting the Z06 to be a lot better choice, but in reality, I prefer the Viper and the Z06 is busy gathering dust these days and needs to find a new owner soon. The Active Handling system (Competition mode) helped me a lot to get used to driving on the track - I'd use it until I got more confident and then shut it off to get my best lap times. The Viper requires a lot more time at the gas station when filling up - inevitably, someone wants to look over the car and drool - something that doesn't happen with the Z06. Everyone knows the Z06 is a "vette" but when they ask me "what kind of car is that?" (referring to the Viper), I LOVE to answer (cheekishly) "It's a DODGE." There are more Porsches around here than just about anywhere so I relish the attention just that much more!
Viper all the way.

 

[MannyC]

Docta Vipa, you ain't kidding about the attention. In the 3 days I have been driving this one, I have had people hang out the window, cars purposely slow down or not even go when the light turns green, just so that I can catch up.

Another thing I noticed if quite the opposite of what I have hear on the board, about jealous drivers. For example, on the way home, there was some construction on the freeway in two different locations which caused me to need to merge left into the slower traffic. Normall, it's a battle to sqeeze in there as you are driving 5 MPH, but this time around, I literally had cars slowing down and leaving big gaps for me to get in there -- more than likely so they could check me out while they drove.

I've only had to fill it up once so far and the gas station was dead at the time, so no pump talk as of yet.