Viperdays, Class Matrix for 2001?

[Bill Pemberton Woodhouse]

Dave,
Alot of your questions and concerns are answered by a business standpoint and not a question on whether some products are as efficacious as others. Michelin is the Main Sponsor of the series and like any other series that is attempting to have a level playing field , there is a spec tire ( BFG Trans Am Series, soon to be Toyo Tire Trans Am, Yokohama is the spec tire for SCCA Spec Fords, Goodyear in Nascar, etc. ). Since the fields for ViperDays are just now starting to grow , but the consumer base is relatively small, manufacturers that step up to the pump are usually given some concession. As Borla, K & N, Stop Tech Brakes, are sponsors for the series, as it is starting to grow, the system to assist those is similar to contigency programs SCCA used in the Solo II program in it's infancy. You may remember some of those as you did very well in both Solo II and Pro Solo. The fact that a driver may get to make a choice of which product he/she uses is not taken away, it just gives minor benefits to those companies that have seen fit to sponsor a Viper Series. Having been a SCCA member since 1981, I see alot of correlation between ViperDays and the early Solo programs. The growth of any automotive sport is contingent upon sponsors and said sponsors seeing value in what they have contributed. As the Challenge Series grows, these initial sponsors will be seen as the innovators that helped ViperDays gain more stature and growth. Hopefully,then, we will see other interested parties wanting to become part of this program that promotes our beloved Snakes, and we will see changes , from growth and participation, to the matrix, benefitting the additional sponsors. I know for one I will be purchasing a Borla system from Archer Racing Accessories, and my car will have K&N's filters added. Many drivers already run Borlas, so it has been a proven product for quite awhile.

In answer to your last questions, I believe there are Pilot Sports that fit the Vette, so that should not be a problem. The ZO6 , I believe , is given 3 points due to the ABS, which will coincidentally give the 2001's 3pts. also. There have been very few Corvettes show up at the events, though they are very welcome, but Skip has had 5 years to fine tune the Matrix for Vipers. Again the support has not come, at all , from GM, but Skip has seen alot of advantages to having the series become a American Muscle Machine Event, so who knows where that may lead in the future. The driving instruction, the parties and comraderie, the wheel to wheel races, are absolutely a phenomenal blast. I look forward to buying products/services from Autoform, Borla, Archer Racing Enterprises, K & N filters, Bobby Archer Racing, Michelin, etc. as their help will let the program reach more Viper owners and , though we are a small family, compared to the PCA or Corvette Clubs, we can have the finest Driving Experience Program - heck we already have the best car!!!!

 

[Marv S]

The way I read the new Matrix, "ABS - EXCEPT Corvette = 2 points". The 2001 ABS Viper with no modifications will be in the Prepared Class. Any corvette with ABS has no additional points.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bill Pemberton:
. The ZO6 , I believe , is given 3 points due to the ABS, which will coincidentally give the 2001's 3pts. also.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

[Brad Manhattan Beach]

Marv:

Could it be because of the upgraded brakes (I'm not exactly sure what GM did here, but the car stops shorter than stock C5's) and the weight savings measures that GM did to the Z06? You are right on about the ABS (as well as traction control), which is on all Corvettes. That's the only differences that I can see.

Great comments from Bill on educating us on the world of event sponsors.

Happy New Years everyone.

Brad
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bill Pemberton:
Dave,
Alot of your questions and concerns are answered by a business standpoint and not a question on whether some products are as efficacious as others. Michelin is the Main Sponsor of the series and like any other series that is attempting to have a level playing field , there is a spec tire ( BFG Trans Am Series, soon to be Toyo Tire Trans Am, Yokohama is the spec tire for SCCA Spec Fords, Goodyear in Nascar, etc. ). Since the fields for ViperDays are just now starting to grow , but the consumer base is relatively small, manufacturers that step up to the pump are usually given some concession. As Borla, K & N, Stop Tech Brakes, are sponsors for the series, as it is starting to grow, the system to assist those is similar to contigency programs SCCA used in the Solo II program in it's infancy. You may remember some of those as you did very well in both Solo II and Pro Solo. The fact that a driver may get to make a choice of which product he/she uses is not taken away, it just gives minor benefits to those companies that have seen fit to sponsor a Viper Series. Having been a SCCA member since 1981, I see alot of correlation between ViperDays and the early Solo programs. The growth of any automotive sport is contingent upon sponsors and said sponsors seeing value in what they have contributed. As the Challenge Series grows, these initial sponsors will be seen as the innovators that helped ViperDays gain more stature and growth. Hopefully,then, we will see other interested parties wanting to become part of this program that promotes our beloved Snakes, and we will see changes , from growth and participation, to the matrix, benefitting the additional sponsors. I know for one I will be purchasing a Borla system from Archer Racing Accessories, and my car will have K&N's filters added. Many drivers already run Borlas, so it has been a proven product for quite awhile.

In answer to your last questions, I believe there are Pilot Sports that fit the Vette, so that should not be a problem. The ZO6 , I believe , is given 3 points due to the ABS, which will coincidentally give the 2001's 3pts. also. There have been very few Corvettes show up at the events, though they are very welcome, but Skip has had 5 years to fine tune the Matrix for Vipers. Again the support has not come, at all , from GM, but Skip has seen alot of advantages to having the series become a American Muscle Machine Event, so who knows where that may lead in the future. The driving instruction, the parties and comraderie, the wheel to wheel races, are absolutely a phenomenal blast. I look forward to buying products/services from Autoform, Borla, Archer Racing Enterprises, K & N filters, Bobby Archer Racing, Michelin, etc. as their help will let the program reach more Viper owners and , though we are a small family, compared to the PCA or Corvette Clubs, we can have the finest Driving Experience Program - heck we already have the best car!!!!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

[Bill Pemberton Woodhouse]

Whoops!!!
In my rush to answer Dave's concerns, I rushed into answering about the ZO6 points placement. The basis is very simple, so of course I totally missed it. A base C5 is 0 pts to begin with, and most Vipers will begin at 1 pt. Add three pts for the competition models, i.e. the ZO6 and the ACR and bingo you have your point factors ( 3 & 4 respectively ). Very common for the production racers to start at a higher level in most competitive automotive events, and Kevin don't worry , since I've already heard as a driver you are really worth your Salt!! Call me or Paul Smackford for the settings, as the ACR on the track is definitely in it's element. Don't lower it over 3/4 of an inch though, as it will bottom out on a bumpy track. Marv S, thanks for bringing up your question and Happy New Year to all you Snakeheads!!!

 

[Bill Pemberton Woodhouse]

Alan, Alan, quit your whining and realize it will bring more newcomers to the track. Those crummy Michelin tires were only 1 measily second slower than you at the Finals, and you trophied!!!
So, in the words of the Smack-Kings ( Mumford and Adelberg ), come out and let's see what you can do against an old, semi-balding, love-handled , graying Super Stock driver who took those crummy tires to a National Championship - PS did I mention I was only 1 second slower than your Street Prepared Red 98 GTS on 1996 MXX3's??

PS - Michelin is working on a new Club Slick and though it is a way off, they are spending dinaro to assist us in the sport.

WAR EASTERN REGION , VIPER DAYS

 

[Skip at Viper Days]

Happy New Year from all of us at Viper Days.

The 2001 Matrix was developed to make the playing field level and allow all drivers to select the class in which they chose to play.

As for sponsors. This is what keeps Viper Days alive. These companies have provided funding and in return we are asking those participants, who want to, to utilize these products. No one is required to buy anything but by supporting these sponsors you help Viper Days.

These sponsors are : Michelin North America, Borla, K&N, Venom Oils, Stop Tech Brake Systems. WE are hopeful that more vendors will come on board in 2001.

Thank you are your support. Please visit our web site www.viperdays.com or call us at 847-382-VIPR
See you at the track!

 

[Bill Pemberton Woodhouse]

Hey Skip,
Just thought I would ask if my assessment of how your figured the points for the ACR and the Z06 were correct - yep, I just took and educated guess?!

 

[Janni]

Skip - the rules matrix rewards sponsorship. Good idea.

Bill - you'd be fast on Firestone Wilderness ATs....

Alan - take a look at the time differentials at the Finals between Super Stock and some of the more heavily modified classes. Hoosiers are definitely worth more than one second at Motorsport Ranch. So maybe the folks that run Michelins are intent on improving the driver before they modify the car???

Looking forward to 2001!

 

[Supercharged Vipermad]

I don't think we should worry about how the Z06 points are structured. The only one that I ever saw was Tittle's and he owns both a Viper & Z06. I doubt there are too many Corvette's out there that want to run in a series called "Viper Days" anyway, so screw 'em!

Now screwing the ACRs....that's another story! Also, 2 pts. seems steep for just ABS. I doubt it's any quicker for a good driver, but it's probably just safer and will help to not flat spot tires. I would think that people would rather have a real race brake system for 2 pts instead of stock ABS brakes. I know I would.

As for the sponsors, they do support the series and should somehow be compensated/appreciated more. However, the drivers' $600/event also makes us feel like psuedo-sponsors. It's important to find a good compromise that keeps the sponsors happy while not limiting the driver's options too much. I think Skip is on the right path, the only problem is that Michellin tires **** (street tires excluded).

It's unfortunate that Hoosier didn't step up with some $$$ and that a decent Michelin slick isn't available. People who have invested in spare rims, and are used to driving on Hoosiers will never go back to street tires. Can you really guys who have modified the hell out of their cars running street tires? I'd love to see Woodhouse & Desert Venom guys squealing around the corners with Pilots.

So what will happen is everybody will run Hoosiers anyway and the Unlimited class will be chock full of cars ranging from street cars with Hoosiers to heavily modified cars. Hopefully the street car guys won't decide to quit the series because they are forced to be classed with race cars. Time will tell...

As for me...I love going to Viper Days and will continue to go. I'm gonna run the best tire, exhaust and brakes that I can find regardless of what class I get put in. If I end up getting my A** beat because I'm in a race car class with a street car--so be it! Viper Days will still be the best way to get unlimited, safe, & fun track time for the $$$ spent.

Ideally, as long as we can get more drivers to attend Viper Days, we won't be as dependent on outside sponsors and we as drivers/sponsors can make rules that are gonna keep us coming to every event. As for Alan...he's a great driver and hell of a nice guy with some valid concerns. His speed shouldn't dictate his right to choose his equipment. As for Bill...he's a phenominal driver who I'm sure would go more than 1 second quicker with Hoosiers. Maybe Bill should step up to Hoosiers and try to defend the East Coast from the West Coast Hoosier Assault! He's studied the fine art of smack talk for a while now and when he turns in his Thesis ("Why Adelberg is such a Pus*y) he will graduate and be prepared to mix it up with the Prepared class.

In summary--as long as Adelberg shows up to take his monthly beatings and the East Coast region is chock full-o-pinoches I'll be there!

WAR VIPER DAYS!!!!!

 

[K Adelberg]

Oh Mumford. I will gladly show up for the monthly beatings, but you may not have the rite. Show up with your weak ACR and Hoosiers. I have a little surprise for you.

I hate to say but I do agree with Mumford on the series. Viper Days is fun and full of great people. If its a series you want to compete in, well the matrix is a bit strange. I think there is no way you will see me on a Michelin tire. THe street tires are great, but that Club Slick mess was a joke. And now there is no race tire. Nice that the wheel to wheel guys get to run a real tire. Pirielli (sp) or something else

I fear that the crowd will diminish due to the tire BS. I can't see guys with modified cars wanting to run on street tires. The car stock has more then enough power to easily taint disaster on the street tires, throw in another 50-100 horsepower and the track events will look like desert storm, dust cloads everywhere.

In addition, the price has gone up again! Skip, I am well aware of what is involved in the events, but I think this format is eventually going to offend people. Many other clubs have great events even with wheel to wheel races and don't have any sponsorship troubles.

Well, all in all, its all for fun anyway.

WAR to all who try to kick Mumford off his thrown. Your reign is over!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Bill Pemberton Woodhouse]

Wow, Mumford has figured out how to address the tire issue, and like the MAN he is he sees the value of having a major sponsor like Michelin assist us. Idleburger has wuupped up on the whine factor, stating Bibendum's tires won't hold up. Right, but the Street Toyo's are good enough for Trans Am this year?????? Seems like most Vipers aren't approaching the low weight and hp ratio Trans Am has, but the Toyo's are okay for them ( didn't hear them whine). Ken, Ken, Ken, your acting like Barbie ( sorry Janni, this is not a sexist comment it's just in pun ) and I think your skirt must be too tight. Be thankful we have a sponsor and one, by the way,that just happens to be ( as we are discoursing venomously ) spending moolah developing a new tire for us - did you know that? Go back and view the times of the faster cars in Super Stock at Nationals and then the times of those in Street Prepared and other classes. Other than Jupiter ( Mumford's Pagan name as he is so fast he belongs on another planet ), they are very close. Maybe the classes will be closer and more competitive with all of us on a similar tire - oooww, what a novel thought , close competition. Run with those in the Unlimited Class, if you like , since you will still be competitive, but remember that all groups of Motorsports have grown due to the magnificense of their sponsors. I look forward to having newcomers joining us knowing we are all on the same tires - actually will be beneficial in allowing us to assist them with pressures , set up, etc. We need the fun, wackos like you to come out and continue the comraderie you and your group have been so instrumental in. Close competition this year, and as we buy Pilots we know our dollars are going to the next generation Club Slick - geared to the Viper. Have faith, somehow a tire company that's good enough to provide all the teams in F1 over the past years, is probably going to do one hell of a job for us. I am going to come out to California this year, so I expect you to be there, be funny, be obnoxious, be fast, but don't be Barbie - the whine marks are like fetid snail tracks on the attitude of life.

Sorry, I tried, but it's hard to be serious and try to emulate your skill as the Smack Daddy. Not too bad for a Midwesterner, right?

 

[K Adelberg]

Well Bill,

Its a good thing you are coming west. See how you do on some great tracks. I would love to battle with you in equal cars and demonstrate that Mumford is not "Godly" fast. He just takes the car near the traction limit. That is the only reason he is faster then most drivers. We'll see you prove you smack at Willow. The turns are long and a great place to demonstrate car control, if you are fast.

I understand well the need for sponsors and the R&D that goes into creating a good product. Why are the time trialers the guinea pigs for developments? I would love the see races on the pilots. If backing the sponsors is the concern, have the wheel to wheel guys on pilots. They are the ones competing in tenths of a second and buying new tires all the time. In the other classes you can do much better improving your skill.

As for the Toyo's, they sound great, Viper sizes? If I will be put in Unlimited for running anything but Michelin why not run the fastest tire? That aint no Toyo! You midwest backward... (that is only directed at Bill!!!! no other people from the mid west)

 

[Jon 98GTS]

Viper Days is certainly going to be “interesting” this year…

Mumford’s right in that the Woodhouse and Desert Venom people aren’t going to run street tires. And Paul makes a good point that is worth repeating:

“ So what will happen is everybody will run Hoosiers anyway and the Unlimited class will be chock full of cars ranging from street cars with Hoosiers to heavily modified cars. Hopefully the street car guys won't decide to quit the series because they are forced to be classed with race cars. Time will tell...”

This is exactly what I think will happen. At Willow Springs, there will probably be 30+ cars in the unlimited class and less than 5 cars in each of the other classes. Nobody knows for sure if the “street car guys” will actually quit the series but I do have a hard time seeing all of the SoCal contingent making the 12 hour one way trip up to Thunderhill (for the 2nd Viper Days event) just so that they can compete in a series where they have no chance of being competitive.

I do love Viper Days and I’ve had a great time participating in it the last two years. I think it is a great concept and I really want to see it succeed and continue to grow. But unfortunately, as of today, I haven’t decided if I’m one of the “street car guys” who are going to drop out…

Adelberg summed it up well: “If its a series you want to compete in, well the matrix is a bit strange.” (His spelling is getting better but his punctuation could still use some work…)

The way that I read the matrix is that the “lowest” class I can compete in with my stock 98 GTS is Super Stock. And the cars that are going to win in the Super Stock class are going to have between $5k and $10k worth of mods done to them. Now, maybe I’m being a pinoche (‘pinouche’ if you use Adelberg’s spelling) or I’m just being a NorCal ******, but isn’t that the cost of a Spec Racer?

What happened to a class for those of us who want to compete with bone stock cars? I enjoyed the fact that I was competing against other drivers and not against driver-car combinations. (It was the only way that I could defend myself against the barrage of smack from Adelberg and his faster times.)

Furthermore, I have a difficult enough time as it is finding convenient and competent service for my car in it’s present form. I can’t imagine the logistical nightmares of getting exhaust, suspension and/or brake upgrades done by someone that I would have complete confidence that the job would be done right. (Maybe if I had one of Mumford’s maids to shuttle me back and forth to the Viper tech, it would be easier…)

Viper drivers who have yet to experience a Viper Days event are truly missing a unique experience. Hopefully, the “tire BS” and the matrix “irregularities” won’t prove to be insurmountable hurdles for the new participants which are necessary for the continued viability of Viper Days.

 

[Supercharged Vipermad]

Guys, I'm certainly not bagging on Viper Days. On the contrary, I think anybody who owns a Viper and doesn't give ViperDays a try is crazy. You might think you are a good driver and can handle the car, but you'll realize quickly that the car AND the driver have WAY more untapped ability than ever imagined. I thought I was a decent driver until I got schooled by some bad-*** drivers. I am an infintely better driver because of ViperDays and would hope that anybody who's afraid of the track would come out just to try it once.

Comparing ViperDays to Trans-Am, Motorola Cup & F1 is crazy. I don't know of any drivers getting paid to play in ViperDays. The day ViperDays becomes Motorola Cup is the last day I and 90% of the partipants stop participating. None of us thinks we're gonna get a "ride" because we kicked *** in ViperDays. None of the race guys wants to trash their car with contact and nobody wants to put you on TV unless there is contact. Lets call it what it is...a rich man's hobby. Unfortunately, not all of us are "rich", but LOVE going to ViperDays events.

Hopefully, we can convince people that have never been to an event to take their car and try it. I think people are afraid of getting their car hurt. I know the tracks out west are great because you can make mistakes and laugh it off without visiting the body shop. I think putting spec tires, brakes and exhaust in the RACE series is cool (esp. if they are kicking back some contingency money), but telling a street guy who wants to do some time trials to compete with a guy with Stop-tech brakes & borla exhaust isn't gonna fly. Unfortunately, less people will show up and the core drivers (street guys) won't attend because they don't want to buy specialized parts just for ViperDays.

Also, everybody is somewhat competitive. A guy with a stock car who has to compete with one of these race cars in Unlimited is gonna get sick of getting worked over and rather than run street tires and "sponsored" equipment, he'll just not show up. I would hope that Borla, Stop-tech and Michellin would rather people purchase their product because it's the best equipment, not because somebody makes them run it to be competitive. I'm sure if those companies offered me some contingency money or parts to win with their stuff, I'd sure be willing to switch. But if I'm forced to run something, I'm gonna have a hard time swallowing it.

Hopefully, people will honestly give their opinions. There are way too many people who publically praise ViperDays, then complain in private to anyone that'll listen. I enjoy going to ViperDays and hope it'll be here for years to come and the only way for that to happen is for people to convince new drivers to stay out and for existing drivers to tell Skip what it'll take to keep them coming back.

Oh yeah...screw Adelberg!

 

[Roger Morgan]

I'm Confused, After finally moving up to Hoosiers with Purner wheels recently it kind of sounds like the only approved tire for 2001 is the Michelin, and that is the Pilot street tire ? I dont even own Pilot tires but do have 2 sets of MXX3's one of which I keep in reserve for the Silver State Challenge and only put 90 miles on those tires twice a year. I assumed that Michelin must have solved the problem from last year but it sounds like maybe not. I do remember Mumford and the Schley,s using up the Michelin slicks at Buttonwillow last year in only a few laps. I think that if a good tire was available from Michelin for the track I would have no problem switching to that tire. As for this year I have been holding back to stay in the Prepared class just so I could wave to Mumford and Adelberg as they go by, but it kind of sounds like they will be moving up to the unlimited class so what the hell I may as well also.
I noticed Bill mentioned the next generation Club Slick and wonder if it may be available this year?
I should say that the reason I think I will stay with the Hoosiers is not because it makes me a better driver or I will move up to the likes of M & A in skill but it is my feeling that is seems much safer to me and I have a little more control. The reason for my original change was because I always felt uncomfortable in the corners not knowing when the tires were going to go away. The Hoosiers seemed to solve the problem.
Anyway I'm glad Bill is coming out west because we need more old, balding, love handled competitors.
Well I gotta go now and start trying to get in shape for Willow Springs. Maybe this unlimited thing wont be so bad.
Hum, supercharger is only 15 points.
See you all at Willow , and I'll bring a truck load of tires and make the "final decision" there.

 

[Tenney]

For the average joker (me), Viper Days is still the best venue for cop-free fun and Viper comaraderie. Although the guys that are running for points in the stock class are probably pleased Lingenfelter isn't a sponsor.

 

[Bill Pemberton Woodhouse]

Paul,
Looks like I had better give up trying to do Smack, because I apparently caused more confusion. No one even remotely thinks that Viper Days drivers have the skill of those in Trans Am ,F1, etc., the analogy was only that any series ( amateur or professional ) needs a main sponsor. I used the tire example, because we compete in the Michelin Challenge Series in Viper Days. They sponsor the series and without them we quite probably would not have any events this year. With the loss of IQuest ( a $100,000 sponsor ) , Viper Days was in dire straits to run 16-17 events all over the country, as the logistical costs have skyrocketed. I fully appreciate the fact that many drivers are running Hoosiers, and if Michelin had not been magnanimous in saying it was okay to run those in the series , then maybe we wouldn't be having these concerns. Michelin is pouring money into a small program ( there are fewer Vipers out there than one years production of Corvettes ) and is developing a tire for the series
,realizing the first was deficient. Having tested tires for BFG and Yokohama, in years past, I can verify that all of these Manufacturers have had similar problems over the years. I have run Hoosiers and think they are a great company, but they had a fiasco 5-6 years back with a Autocross racing tire that often lasted 1-2 events!! That was really expensive, but many folks stood by them until they could improve this tire. I fully believe that the average driver will come in with his Michelins from the factory and find a place to run in Viper Days from Day One. For such a small group , Skip & crew attempt the impossible of trying to be all things to everyone - Instructional School , Solo I type event, and Wheel to wheel racing. I do not know of any other Marque ( i.e . Porsche,Corvette,BMW ) group that attempts to do anything like this , especially on the scale they do , traveling all over the country.The other sponsors are given a minor concession so that those that want to can do some of the less expensive things to improve their car as they improve or progress. Due to Viper Days small size this is the only economically feasible way at the present , but as the matrix reads at the bottom, it will be adjusted as more sponsors come on board. I agree completely that it would be great to have contingency monies, and that will probably come as Viper Days acquires more sponsors. To achieve that, we need entrants and we need to show a track record that we support those that support us.To paraphrase Richard Dreyfus, in his eloquent speech to Bill Murray, " Baby Steps." This is the phase we are at and to accomplish some of your visionary ideas , we have be thankful that Skip has taken it this far. Has he made mistakes,sure? But few can fault that he tries to listen to all, even though you can't ever make everyone happy. One of the main focus's of the series is an Instructional School, virtually all new drivers will come on the Michelins the car came with - who better to be the main sponsor. As drivers progress, they are given alternatives, and these take the shape of a rules matrix. Like much larger groups, SCCA, Vintage Racing, Nascar, etc. rules change to try to keep everyone happy - from Sponsors to entrants. Though we are tiny in comparison, Skip has been very flexible in adjusting rules to try to compensate as many as possible. This is something a small group can do, but many feel it is part of the problem, since you can't be everything for everybody. Skip will continue to try and that is why so many of us keep attending. I agree with Jon Scott that maybe there needs to be a Stock Coupe Class for those that want to do absolutely nothing to their cars ( except safety issues and racing pads ), for those just beginning or those that want to run a purely stock car - there is alot of validity here. I can also see your point that with full blown race cars in the Unlimited class, against essentially Street Prepared Cars on Hoosiers that there is a concern here. Maybe there should be a Unlimited class for those cars that aren't gutted and have a set number of points, and a Super Unlimited class for the more aggressive, true race Vipers. The reality , in your own words,is that Hoosier didn't pony up the money and Michelin did, so Michelin is the tire that most everyone will be on, and should be on. I , for one, look forward to their new tire late this year, and I appreciate all they are doing for the continued success of Viper Days. I hope you and the others will give Skip a call and as you stated, you will continue to be there for the comraderie, fun and enjoyment of the Viper. You have been a wonderful Ambassador for the Viper, and we need you,Ken, Jon, and others out assisting all the newcomers , in order that they can fully realize the potential their V10 monster has.

PS - As a side note , the race group is not running on street tires, since this is a seperate series within the event structure.

 

[Skip at Viper Days]

We are trying to develop a school, challenge series and race series that will appeal to all Viper Owners. This has proven to be difficult but we are constantly trying to provide a great experience for all drivers. Our biggest problem is the number of entrants at each event. We need more cars!! If each entrant would bring ONE new driver to an event we would be full and this would be a financial winner! We would love to have no spec tire but it is strictly a money issue.

What goes into an event? Track rental, insurance, Flat bed tow truck (So we can keep down time to a minimum), ambulance, corner workers(ours are paid ,unlike others who use drivers from event! also we could use fewer but we feel safety is more important), starter, track event manager(required), communications equipment(radios), flags, fire extinguishers, brooms(We are charged for all these items), reception party, upgraded catered lunches, a gala banquet, commerative shirt, Timing & Scoring person, Chief Steward, Chief Instructor, salary for them, motel rooms, air fares, telephone,timing equipment, tow vehicle and trailer for office plus cost to get to events,web management, newsletter, postage and mailings, Courtney - runs a tight ship and you benefit by maximum track time(she is also paid) and I have NEVER made a penny off Viper Days!! Would you work for free? Unfortunately I love it and believe in it!

The matrix seems to be misunderstood , so I will try and clarify it. First you select your car, then the exhaust configuration. We now have Michelin, K&N, Borla, Venom Oils and Stop Tech as sponsors. They have paid a fee to be the authorized products for Viper Days. You have a choice to utilize their products or not. It is NOT mandatory. The whole idea is - it is your choice. This is done by SCCA and works fine. Continue through the matrix adding points for things that YOU choose to add to your car. Add the total and get your class. Michelin is the spec tire for all classes except the Unlimited class. That is to say that you have a choice of tires. You can run anything you desire and still have a place to run your Viper. The choices are all yours!

Jon Scott brings up a great point and one which we will address immediately. We will have a bone stock class!!

Ladies and Gentlemen - please call us with your ideas we are trying!!! We will make the necessary changes as they are brought to our attention. If you have any questions about the matrix call us! WE need and appreciate your input.... call US!!!
847-594-8477 or E-mail us at [email protected]

Please call us!

First West Coast event will be at Willow Springs on Jan 26, 27 & 28.
Sign up now !!!!
See you at the track,
SkipText

 

[Tom Glenn]

I was really enjoying the discussion on the rules matrix right up to the point I read Bill "Windy" Pemberton's thesis. Seriously, for me one of the best things about the matrix is the flexability to analyze the mods I would like to make to my car in conjuction with the class I would like to run. That combined with Skip's accessibilty and willingness to change the matrix when good points are made is one of the factors that make this such an exceptional experience. I think Jon has made an excellent point on there being a "Stock GTS' class. Especially since this might mean I won't have to compete against him. Keep it up Viper Days, I can't wait for the season to begin.

 

[K Adelberg]

I think many great points were raised, but still think Jon is a Pinoch! Spell it any way you want!

Skip, I think that is great to make a bone stock class, good move! However, I think there should be some variations to the Unlimited class too. If someone comes out with a bone stock car, but likes and wants to run Hoosiers competing in the unlimited class may deter him or her from the event. Perhaps an Unlimited and a Super Unlimited class with a point matrix scale. Just a thought.

Basically, just come out to Viper Days! Who cares where you run, if you are going for points. The real value is in the camaraderie of all of us. I have made friends for life and some are my closest competitors. Forget about the competition and join the fun!

PS Mumford you are going to loose! You should show up with a stock ACR just so you will have an excuse for the humiliation. Pinoch!

 

[Supercharged Vipermad]

The jist of my post wasn't to imply that Skip is doing something crappy. If you pay attention to the posts, you'll see that people are gonna run Hoosiers regardless. So how does it help Michelin if I'm allowed to run Hoosiers but have to compete with Unlimited cars? Is it just to spite me? Teach me a lesson I won't soon forget?

I would think Michelin wouldn't care if I run Hoosiers in Prepared or Unlimited. Now if Michelin came in and said that they'd only sponsor us if NOBODY ran Hoosiers no matter what, then that would be different. Unfortunately, that would be detrimental to Viper Days because the fields would immediately dwindle.

Skip is totally right that we do need to get the word out that Viper Days is the most fun you can have with your Viper. BUT, you don't want to alienate the competitors that have supported the series. Alan M from NY has a great point that needs to be addressed. If it isn't, he won't show up to as many or any events. That would hurt Viper Days. For every Alan M that speaks up, there are probably 3-4 people that won't speak up and just won't show up to the events anymore. That's my concern. I don't want to see the existing group leave because they don't agree with the rules. I like Alan and would hate to see him not show up and I'm sure that Skip wouldn't want to see Alan's thousands of dollars in entry fees disappear either.

So that's my point. It seems like we're just being punished for not supporting Michelin. As for Michelin, they build the greatest street tire available for a Viper. But when I'm giving Adelberg the thrashing of a lifetime in 3 weeks it won't be on the street, it'll be on the track and I'll be driving on track tires. They don't even have a comparable track tire yet, so I doubt they'll care too much until they do. So if I get punished and dumped in the Unlimited class, it won't help Michelin, it won't help me, and it won't help Skip because the odds of me (and my entrance fees) driving to Texas or Thunderhill to defend my points standings are diminished because I won't be in a competitive car.

Also, adding a bunch more classes isn't helpful because one of the big problems is that some classes have 1 or 2 drivers total. Not exactly compelling. I point these things out because Skip is always open to constructive arguments and I don't want to see the fields & competition diminish because of these new rules.

 

[kverges]

My unsolicited and probably unwanted comments:

First, I am not really trying to be critical of Viper Days, as I think the concept is great and obviously you are doing a good job in developing the loyalty of your following.

Second, I have put on a track event and am struggling to do more, so I know a little about the problems with budget and participation.

Now that I have tried to cover my butt a little bit, I'll criticize anyway ;-)

1. Try to get the cost down. I know staff and so on is expensive, but the track events I attended run about $250-$300 for a weekend, including instructors, but not always timing and scoring. It is a chicken & egg thing getting the participation level up enough to help reduce costs, but $600 or whatever it is for the weekend is about double any event I have ever done with any group, be it SCCA, Porsche Club, CVAR, etc. For example the catered food does nothing for me and in fact is an impediment to bringing a guest due to the high fees for that.

2. If you are going to let Vettes play, open it up to other cars, too. I actually prefer the more diverse track events, as there are always Vipers in attendance, but they are also a legal venue to play boy racer with Ferraris, Porsche, Audi, Chevy, BMW, Supra, etc. You might have to change the name so as not to pi$$ off the others, and then that might reduce the Viper attendance, I don't know. Remember this is a limited production car, so your audience is necessarily smaller if you make it a perceived "Viper" event.

3. Have more events within a few hundred miles of Dallas. I know, I missed TWS and should have gone last November. But conflict happens and I just can't travel for the approximately 1 week per event that would be required to do very many of them on the current schedule.

4. Open the finals to locals, especially if you are not full. I know I am a whiner, but it did not exactly warm my heart to be at my home track, for which I pay membership dues, and not be able to play for 2 years in a row. Boo hoo!

FWIW,

Keith

 

[Jaymz]

I would also agree that the $600 or so for the weekend is a little pricey. I have never raced in a Viperdays event but I have been to one before. I know that the costs of running these events is a large sum of money. Maybe you can trim some of the extras like the dinners, etc. to get the price down. That will defiantely get more cars there.

I would also agree that you should open up the events to more non viper cars. Maybe make it a Viper/Vette Days and try to market the events to the Vette owners.


BTW I am planning on running a couple of events this year to support the events.

Just my .02

James Forbis

 

[Skip at Viper Days]

We are constantly reviewing all our options on what Viper Days should offer to its drivers. We could make it a bare bones track time only event. We tried this once and got told to not change the format! They liked the good food and banquet and not eat track food yet enjoy the company of all the participants in one location. Maybe we should try it again. An option that is not feasible is to offer a menu of options. Caterers require a guarentee weeks before an event and this would be an administration nightmare.

As for other marques being allowed to enter, we are looking at this hard! We have invited Corvettes to come but they are few and far between. We are inviting Porsches to attend the race group at selected tracks. But let us remember that all of us have over $70,000 invested!! Do you want to run around the track with a low value car?

As for pricing, I will only mention the fact that we offer a complete weekend package! Track Time is charging $600 for 2 days of track time only... nothing extra! Look at the whole package.
The answer is simple. We need more Vipers entered in each event. We limit the number of Vipers on track to 15. No other group does this! We want to give all entrants lots of safe track time and we have done that! We want to keep it Viper exclusive and have worked hard over the past 5 years to get the entries up. We need your help.... bring out a friend and show them that they will not trash their car. This is what it was made for.

Hope to see you at the track.

 

[Janni]

OK, here's the thing. I guess I really should be whining about the price because it costs us DOUBLE each time we go. But I'm not and here's why I'll pay...

I like having the qualified instructors available. I NEED them. Others may not, but since this is a Challenge Series AND a school, the instructors are costly. Also, I really don't want a bunch of wanna be boy racers telling me how to drive - the quality of instructors is essential to my enjoyment.

I like the mostly Viper layout / format. I like knowing most folks at the events. Its already open to Vettes, and if attendance by Viper owners is low, then Skip usually opens it up later. I am not comfortabble milling around with lots of other folks I don't know. I leave the trailer open, the truck open and am very relaxed that I don't have to watch everything like a hawk. I'm not saying anything would happen, but if you get a bunch of different folks at each event, then I think you increase the chances.

Meals - I am pretty easy to please there, but in case some of you have not noticed, most Viper owners are a fairly demanding lot. And some are just not used to eating McDonalds 2 or three times a day. Oh, and the water thing - there is always plenty of water to prevent dehydration - most folks would NOT bring enough and not drink enough during real hot weather.

Safety - pay the corner workers. I DO NOT want to stand out in the sun with flags watching for mishaps and throwing the passing flag. I'd probably not be very good, and between run sessions I like to watch my better half and relax. Also, having a real tow truck there is nice - nothing worse than sitting in your car on the grid waiting for Billy Bob amd Jombo push a broken car halfway around the track becasue the owner is worried about scraping the nose.

Oh, and I like the fact that the number of cars is limited. SOmetimes is gets pretty crowded out there for us slower folks. I like being able to let a couple of folks by and hten concentrate on my driving without a rear view mirror full of Vipers. We going to join VIR this year and participate in the member days there. Lots of Vintage cars. Cost will be $120 per day (probably end up being more) but I'll bet the number of cars per run group will be higher, I'll spend a couple hundred in overpriced food, no instruction, no timing and scoring, oh an this is on top of hte normal monthly fees to be a member. I figure we'll spend 60-70% as much for less track time and no instruction.

Please remember that not all of us are Ricky Racer types who don't need instruction and don't mind hanging out all day at tracks with no bathroom facilities

Oh, and I can say all this becasue we plan to attend all the east coast events this year, only one of which is event remotely close to our home....

 

[Supercharged Vipermad]

$600 is a bargain considering what you receive. I go to a lot of track events and it is impossible to receive even half of the track time you'll get at a Viper Days event. There are always great instructors ready to hop into your car anytime you want. And these instructors aren't the usual crop of bozos that hang around the track "instructing" that then go out and turn lap times 10sec. slower than everyone else. They really know what they're doing. I've been doing this a while and every weekend (at the beginning and at the end) I take one of the instructors with me and am always amazed that they'll find something for me to work on that I didn't even see.

I spent $2000 to go to a "driving school" and it was the biggest waste of money ever. You'll get way more track time & instruction at ViperDays than anywhere else. But the biggest difference is that you are surrounded only by Vipers. There's nothing worse than being in a run group with 30 other cars, 20 of which have 150 or less horsepower. It's just a big waste of time because you can't concentrate on driving, it's just a passing Bonanza. At ViperDays you only have to worry about lapping Adelberg every few laps, and even he waives you by pretty quickly.

 

[K Adelberg]

I have to agree with Mumford on the instruction. I too have been to many track events with other clubs. Their instructors are usually not familiar with Vipers, even had one of them flat spot a tire of mine and then mumble, "I didn't realize there is no ABS." Viper Days offers the best Viper specific instruction. Bang for the Buck! You can't find a better format for the Viper. Also being a decent driver, at the other clubs it is like driving in rush hour traffic when there are many cars with only 150 HP.

Mumford, my car will be the widest car you ever encounter on the track. Good luck trying to pass me. Everyone feel free to board the Chez Mumford RV for track side service. Satalite TV and clean restrooms. You can even do your laundry.

WAR the Mumford gravy train.

 

[GTS Dean]

OK, it's my turn now.

I have competed in Viper Days for 4 years now and done 3 Finals.

Entry Fee extras: I have a closet full of Viper Days shirts and I don't want to wear them every day. Enough of the shirts now Skip - or at least offer a no-shirt discount. I like the evening cocktail parties and the Saturday night dinner. Keep them. The catered track lunches are overpriced and underconsumed. I work on my own car at the track (and at home) and usually don't have time to eat a sit-down meal. Offer a no-lunch discount. For people doing Viper Days for the first couple of times, however, those little things mean a lot. Remember, we are not driving Ferraris, Lambos or Maseratis. Most of us don't own one of the aforementioned cars and I, for one, don't think it is at all necessary to provide the nice-nice extras. Save that for the Viper-Ferrari Wars.

Tires: I like the Michelin street tires. I don't think any Viper owners should upgrade their tires until they can do consistent *controlled* drifts with their foot on the floor. Big, fat stickies will only give you a false sense of security and most will probably never find find their limits. I like to do at least one session at most tracks on street rubber so I can remind myself what the car's basic limitations are so I don't expect Hoosier performance on the street.

I like the spec tire idea a lot, but I don't like having street tires as the spec for higher classes. I was one of the "weirdos" who thought the Club Slicks were pretty good tires, but then I think the XGT-Z is a good tire too. Unfortunately, the C.S. tires were not an easy one for most people to go play on because they didn't like to be pushed in the corners unless you were unwinding or countersteering to keep the back end in control. I'm looking forward to the new generation of them.

Travel: Every time I go out of state for one of these events, it ends up costing me well over 2 grand. It costs money to have someone haul my car, it costs a grand-plus to put tires and brakes on the car. It costs a grand for airfare, rent-car and lodging. I can trim the cost some if I haul my own car, but I can't be away that long. I will always see lots of great people I know and like there (even Mumford), with whom I share a common love: Vipers! We get to run at some REALLY NEAT tracks and that is worth something to me.

You can show up anywhere in the country to a great track and run a Barber Dodge or Formula Ford (real spec racecar) that is professionally prepared and maintained, in a real race, for a total of around 2 grand plus travel and entry fees. This will get you great, heated competition but win you few lasting friendships. I don't ever see myself caging my car and joining the race group. I like to drive my Viper on the road with some regularity and there are cheaper race cars to run.

I would really rather go cross-country to do Viper Days than VOI. (unless it's in Detroit again - bad roads and all)

I agree that the instructors at Viper Days are extremely valuable, primarily because they understand how quirky the cars are and demonstrate how to make them work so that the average Viper owners can enjoy them more.

Even with all my gripes, I still like the concept and the basic package and I will continue to participate as much as I can. I will continue to get most of my tracktime with other clubs closer to home.

 

[Henry Cone]

I'm going to jump in with my $0.02 as well. While it is a stretch for Janni and I to field 2 cars for all of the East Coast events this year, I can think of no better bang for the buck than doing this. Viper Days is the best combination of great people and a challenging event that I know of.

I also know that I am a much better driver for having participated in Viper Days. Yes, we both run in Super Stock class on Michelin MXX3's - and my driving skills are immeasurably better for it. The challenge of running against others with comparably equipped cars is a great teaching experience - just when you think that you have gotten all that you can out of the car someone goes faster in theirs... and thus proves that there is more to be found. I personalllyh like that kind of challenge....

Our cars are also better for the preparation that we have done to them - all within the Super Stock class rules. We read the rules and figure out what we want (and can afford) to do within them. We also help others with their cars - we have 2 NC Region members who have become completely caught up in track events with their cars because of Viper Days. And we have helped them prep their cars so that they can safely experience the same challenges that we have. And I would do the same for anyone else who asked...

Last yeasr was my first in Viper Days and I ended up second in the East Coast Region (I'll get you yet Bill) and 5th in the finals. My goal this year is to win both!!!! But if I don't I know that I will still be a better driver and have a better car for having tried to meet this challenge.

So as I review next years matrix I applaud Skip's effors to find financial support for the series so that it doesn't get more expensive. The sponsors that he has brought on board are good ones. That doesn't necessarily that I will use all of them but I appreciate that these sponsors have stepped up with $$$ so that we all can continue to run Viper Days.

Sorry to ramble but this is near and dear to my heart. The Viper Days people are some of the best that there are. I enjoy the chance to talk, eat, drink, benchrace, BS, etc, etc Vipers with all of them - it simply doesn't get any better!!!!

 

[FrankBarba]

what ever happened to the misjak's, hampton's, snelton's, mckee's, sw's, and all the forgotten others that helped get viper days off the ground ?