What's the "In-Thing" on Supercharger Gages??

cayman

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Just getting a consensus on turbo/supercharger gauges. I'm running a Roe SC but I'm not using any gauges....yet. I'm thinking of the boost gauge that Roe sells coupled with an Innovate wideband setup (LC-1 with their DB gauge). The LC-1 will be set up with the VEC3 for logging and tuning purposes via laptop but I also wanted to be able to monitor AF while driving and after tuning. I know some say the AF readings on an independent gauge bounce so much its meaningless, even with the wideband but surely there is some value in using an AF ratio meter when not actually logging on a computer. Also considering a dual gauge pillar pod to mount these in. Thoughts, comments, pics of your setup?

BTW, done a search but most are old threads. I'd like an update based on the in-thing nowadays regarding gauge usage and placement.:eater:
 
D

DAMN YANKEE

Guest
Cayman,

Good topic..

I run a single Innovate LC-1 wideband and have an LED square "DynoTune Gauge" (red) mounted in he cockpit. The gauge runs off of one of the LC-1 analog outs and, after doing the required, simple software setup using Innovate's own "LogWorks" software, the gauge works perfectly. It is mounted below the key area on the dash, no wires show and one can see it plainly and not have to stare at it all the time. Having said that, your question is actually more complex and I know you are looking for a full answer.

Value of a WB gauge mounted in the cockpit:

First a little background. The purpose of running the wideband is to get much more of an accurate view as to be a "air to fuel" ratios occurring real-time in your viper. This requires a little background as well, for gasoline engines the best Lambda reading is 14.7:1. What that means is there is 14.7 pounds of air for every pound of fuel. When lambda occurs, the combustion of the engine is near-perfect but it is important to mention that is the case in a normally aspirated gasoline engine. When one Supercharges or turbocharges an engine that target lambda readings are actually quite different. In all Roe Racing five pound supercharged viper, the target lambda when the car is in open loop is between 11.5 and 11.9. But, you will never see it. Repeat, you will NEVER see accurate reatime OPEN LOOP readings. What is possible to see is the 14.7 lambda reading when the car is in closed loop and idling. One might also be able to see the 11.7 lambda reading when the car is in closed loop and at a super constant cruising speed. At that time, the gauge will oscillate from the low 11s to the low 12s. As soon as one stomps on the gas, I promise you that the last place you will be looking is at your gauge. Want the data? Then you'll have to log, and when you do your log will reveal all of the data that one could possibly want to comb through. Got a VEC, AEM, etc? No wideband? You can still log EVERYTHING that your engine is currenly doing OTHER than lambda. You just cant tune your rig without widebands...and then only by looking at the logs. To put it bluntly...a wideband gauge on a well running motor is a bore, important...but a bore.

Others will argue that the innovate gauge sets provide something more than just intermediate viewing. They are referring to the button control on the gauge that allows you to automatically begin a logging session. As most gauges are well within reach of the driver this seems to be a simple way to begin a logging sequence without having to reach over into the passenger seat and hit the start button on a laptop. I reach over into the passenger seat and hit the start button on the laptop all the time, I'm not sure there are tremendous gains to be had by running a gauge simply to house a button. But having said that it is a very clean way to go and many swear by it. The other advantage of running in innovate gauge is that their new software may include the capability for the single gauge, usually mounted on the steering housing, to oscillate between two independent wideband sensors. Sounds good doesn't it? The issue is that my conversations with the Innovate people leaves me with the impression that one cannot tell which of the two banks one is viewing as a dial does not display a special character. Not much good in my opinion. However, the idea of running to separate wideband gauges is even less appealing unless they are as small as the DynoTunes.

I would make one additional point. There is something even more important perhaps then reading Lambda measurements off a gauge. That is, the ability for you to be sure that your wide bands are fully heated before you first crank cold engine. Crank a cold engine on a wideband and the water (exhaust condensation) will ruin the wideband quickly. Crank an engine with a disconnected widebnd (again no heat) and its over as well for the wideband. In the case of the Innovate LC-1, they provide the ability for you to run a red diode either into the cockpit or in a visible place elsewhere. This diode will tell you if the sensor is working in good order...and hot. I am always surprised to see how long it takes for a good wideband sensor to heat up and for the red LED to remain constant. Unfortunately, no one to my mind makes a gauge that has this very same indicator included in the face. Too bad.

There is something comforting about letting the car warm up and see the gauge read 14.7 at idle. Aside from that, some folks say the gauge might help one notice when it is way off in idle or cruise.

Dynotunes web site

http://www.dynotunenitrous.com/store/scripts/prodlist.asp?idcategory=44


Log, log, log....
 
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KenH

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The WBO is the most important guage IMO. You must log to tune, but the guage does provide a quick reference as to whether your tune is moving on you without having to hook up a laptop.

2nd in my opinion is a vacuum/boost guage. Not so much for the boost reading, but rather for the vacuum reading. Many tuning issues are during vacuum or vacuum - boost transitions and a guage helps to locate those problem areas. If you are like me, the car never misbehaves when I have the laptop hooked up. A boost only guage in my opinion is fairly useless.

My 3rd guage is a D-PIC performance meter. I figured it would give me additional input on how my tuning was working. I haven't tried to retune the car since installing, so not sure if it has much value or not.

A gauge that I think is under utilized is an EGT, especially on setups that are boost programmable.
 
D

DAMN YANKEE

Guest
EGT = Exhaust Gas Temperature....

"There seems to be a lot of mystery and misinformation about using exhaust gas temperatures to tune engines. Claims by many EGT gauge manufacturers about it being the best way to tune an engine must be qualified. The BEST way to tune an engine is on an engine dyno- PERIOD. What EGT is good for is a reference for where the engine made maximum torque at wide open throttle. Once removed from the dyno, a similar air/fuel ratio can be established at a later date by dialing in the mixture to achieve the target EGT. It is really the AFR that is important, not the EGT. Most engines will make maximum power at an AFR of between 12.0 and 13.5 to 1 however, the EGT may vary from 1250F to 1800F and is dependent on many factors.

It should be mentioned that the target EGT is valid only on the same engine configuration as was used on the dyno. If you change the ignition timing, cams, pistons, headers etc., the optimum EGT may also change. Raising the compression ratio with no other changes will drop the EGT at the same AFR. Retarding the ignition timing will generally raise the EGT at the same AFR. One engine might make best power at 1350 degrees while a very similar engine might be happier at 1500. You can't guess at this or you are simply wasting your money on the instrumentation. Wankel engines have higher EGTs than comparable piston engines due to their lower thermal efficiencies. 1800F is not uncommon here.
Some gauge manufacturers say you should tune to achieve maximum or peak EGT for maximum performance. This is incorrect. Peak EGT generally occurs at an AFR of around 14.7- 15.0 to 1 on gasoline. This is far too lean for maximum power and is dangerous under continuous WOT conditions. Many people think that the leaner you go, the higher the EGT gets. This is also incorrect. Peak EGT occurs at stoichiometry- about 15 to 1 for our purposes. If you go richer than 15 to 1, EGT will drop and if you go leaner than 15 to 1 EGT will ALSO drop. It is VERY important to know which side of peak EGT you are on before making adjustments. It is safe to say that peak power will occur at an EGT somewhat colder than peak EGT.

You can sometimes feel a lean of peak condition as the mixture is hard to ignite and power will be down a bit as well. Once the AFR gets close to 17 to 1 at WOT, generally the engine will start to lean misfire. Most tuners always recommend to begin jetting or programming from a known very rich initial setting and carefully leaning until torque falls off slightly, then going back richer to the point of max torque. Note the EGT at this setting. Be aware that altitude, barometric pressure and ambient air temperature may affect this optimal temperature to some degree.

Are EGT gauges better than AFR meters? Conventional narrow band oxygen sensors and digital LED meters are not the best devices to measure AFR in the richer ranges but they certainly warn of a too lean condition immediately and obviously, without translation by the driver and they are affordable. Meters combined with wide band sensors are supposed to be highly accurate and everyone has jumped on the bandwagon with these lately. Unfortunately the naive and impressionable often don't question the accuracy of these devices. We have seen some dyno plots indicating best power was achieved at AFRs of 9.7 to 1 on gasoline. This is PHYSICALLY AND CHEMICALLY IMPOSSIBLE and shows that either the sensor was bad (leaded fuel used possibly) or the meter was not calibrated properly. Again, the wide band sensors have the same limitations as the narrow band- leaded race gas quickly fouls them. We have heard and read many stories now indicating that certain brands of wideband meters differ as much as 2 points AFR in readings between each other. In other words, the accuracy of some of these devices is highly questionable. Extensive testing with laboratory quality instrumentation on aircraft engines universally indicates that best power is NEVER made at AFRs richer than 12 to 1. Airflow and fuel flow rates are independently measured and each cylinder is instrumented with EGT probes.

We recently dynoed a shop road racing Celica on a DynoJet equipped with a wide band meter. The meter was saying that the engine was going super lean (17 to 1) at high rpm so we kept upping the fuel there. The engine lost more and more power as we added fuel. The dyno operator was convinced that the meter was right but logic told us with no serious dip in power on the curve and the fact that the engine was still alive that the meter was not correct. We started leaning the engine down more and the engine started gaining power. Finally, when confronted with this information, the operator checked the water trap for the wide band sensor. Once this was emptied, the AFRs looked reasonable again. We didn't need the wide band to tell us this, only the torque curve from the dyno.
We have heard of several other instances with people using wide bands getting erroneous readings and tuning their SDS based on these readings. Then they phone us saying that the system is crap. Look at the dyno curve, when the engine makes its best power at a given rpm, that's where it likes the AFR irregardless of what other instrumentation is telling you. Remember, a bad sensor whether O2 or EGT equals bad information. When the engine sounds crisp and makes great power, you're there.

I would suggest that mixture meters and EGT gauges are complimentary. EGT gauges have the advantage of working long term with leaded fuel which will clog oxygen sensors. EGT gauges are widely used to set mixture on engines used for steady state high power applications where operation has been carefully documented such as in aircraft. The choice would depend on the application. Both are better if you can afford them."

- from the web... http://sdsefi.com/techegt.htm

Where are you mounting the gauges?
I am liking my D Pic more and more too.
 
G

grcforce327

Guest
Cayman,

Good topic..

I run a single Innovate LC-1 wideband and have an LED square "DynoTune Gauge" (red) mounted in he cockpit. The gauge runs off of one of the LC-1 analog outs and, after doing the required, simple software setup using Innovate's own "LogWorks" software, the gauge works perfectly. It is mounted below the key area on the dash, no wires show and one can see it plainly and not have to stare at it all the time. However, the idea of running to separate wideband gauges is even less appealing unless they are as small as the DynoTunes.
Dynotunes web site
http://www.dynotunenitrous.com/store/scripts/prodlist.asp?idcategory=44

I have two available!:D

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