i want to get forged internals on my creampuff. i have all the bolt ons and the roe blower on the car and need to get a head job and forged pistons and rods. what are the best pistons and rods to use? i am going to have some valves made also so who has the best valves so i can compare craftsmanship. if you could have valves made what type of metal would be the best? also if you could make pistons and rods what type of metal?
which rods & pistons are the best to upgrade creampuff?
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Vic
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I'd like to do forged pistons, also.
Don't know much about pistons specifically, but most people seem to use Ross or JE. Quite a few people keep the stock rods. On compression, 9.0:1 or possibly even a tad lower is recommended. With all that said, you may want to consider waiting on the complete overhaul as the next few months should be interesting with one or more intercoolers for the Roe setup coming out, the new VEC2 with timing advance now available, and possibly the AEM ECU as another tuning option. You can change heads and cam without pulling the engine, and if the intercooler and tuning work well you may not need to go to forged internals. I also have a Roe blower on a cast piston car and I think I'm going to wait until the intercooler is available and then go for more boost with the cast pistons in place.
Larry Macedo
Enthusiast
Feel free to call or Email me regarding Roe Blowers and stroker motors. I'm currently putting together conversion packages from cast to forged with 510 to 543 stroker motors utilizing the Roe S/C.
Anthony - 98 GTS
Enthusiast
I have JE pistons and Manly rods. 
Larry is who you need to talk to for a Roe blower car.
Larry is who you need to talk to for a Roe blower car.
Bandit400
Enthusiast
I thought the stock rods were good. They are forged correct?
Bandit400
Bandit400
Torquemonster
Enthusiast
How good a rod you need comes down to how fast you want to turn the engine.
rpm's not hp is what hurts a rod. If you will never see more than 6100rpm then a blueprinted and prepared stock rod with good rod bolts will get the job done.
If you'd like to run serious power and a solid street roller cam etc and rpm to 7,000 - then Oliver or Carillo etc come into it. Of course if you run a stroker - you need different rods anyway - so might as well get good ones. Another good brand is GRP - who make a titanium alloy rod that has the lightweight of aluminium and the durability of steel - provided they are not taken apart too often - they're good for about 50 tear-downs - which should be more than enough ;-)
As for forged pistons - CP is preferred by many Pro Stock racers for their superior oiling system - but at the rpms you'll use - any of the reputable pistons will be fine - Ross, JE etc. As the price between a stock JE part number and a custom JE is not great I'd seriously consider having a piston made to achieve a tight quench - you'll pick up 6-7hp per 0.010" tighter you go, you can safely go to around 0.035" piston to head clearance (which requires pistons sticking up into gasket if a 0.040" gasket is used... but the main advantage is detonation resistance under boost will increase dramatically!!
You can keep compression down to 9:1 by deepening the valve reliefs and a little chamber work. Once the piston manufacturer has done one set they can make them a saleable item - I'd call them a "Tight Squish 9:1 Piston". Heads and block should be surfaced lightly and each piston has to be hand checked/finished to ensure all are the same at TDC (a rod length may vary slightly - so you can't do one and assume all the others are the same - they should be but don't assume).
Go get them Swain coated along with the head chambers and valves - a good move with boost.
With the valves - avoid going too light as they may not be durable for street use long term. Get good SS valves and save weight via titanium retainers. There is potential gains if you can adapt the new Chevy "BEEHIVE" valve springs. If you can run those - you save a lot of load on your valvetrain via a lot less spring pressure required for any given cam spec.
rpm's not hp is what hurts a rod. If you will never see more than 6100rpm then a blueprinted and prepared stock rod with good rod bolts will get the job done.
If you'd like to run serious power and a solid street roller cam etc and rpm to 7,000 - then Oliver or Carillo etc come into it. Of course if you run a stroker - you need different rods anyway - so might as well get good ones. Another good brand is GRP - who make a titanium alloy rod that has the lightweight of aluminium and the durability of steel - provided they are not taken apart too often - they're good for about 50 tear-downs - which should be more than enough ;-)
As for forged pistons - CP is preferred by many Pro Stock racers for their superior oiling system - but at the rpms you'll use - any of the reputable pistons will be fine - Ross, JE etc. As the price between a stock JE part number and a custom JE is not great I'd seriously consider having a piston made to achieve a tight quench - you'll pick up 6-7hp per 0.010" tighter you go, you can safely go to around 0.035" piston to head clearance (which requires pistons sticking up into gasket if a 0.040" gasket is used... but the main advantage is detonation resistance under boost will increase dramatically!!
You can keep compression down to 9:1 by deepening the valve reliefs and a little chamber work. Once the piston manufacturer has done one set they can make them a saleable item - I'd call them a "Tight Squish 9:1 Piston". Heads and block should be surfaced lightly and each piston has to be hand checked/finished to ensure all are the same at TDC (a rod length may vary slightly - so you can't do one and assume all the others are the same - they should be but don't assume).
Go get them Swain coated along with the head chambers and valves - a good move with boost.
With the valves - avoid going too light as they may not be durable for street use long term. Get good SS valves and save weight via titanium retainers. There is potential gains if you can adapt the new Chevy "BEEHIVE" valve springs. If you can run those - you save a lot of load on your valvetrain via a lot less spring pressure required for any given cam spec.
thanks for the reply guys. i know alot of guys are using je and arrow told me a couple months ago diamond were good to use. whats the best piston with price not being a factor?
i know the rods are forged but they are not that good(according to arrow). since the motor will be apart mind as well swap them out.
the intercooler won't be out for awhile and even when it comes out forged pistons will be safer and you will be able to run even more boost.
i know the rods are forged but they are not that good(according to arrow). since the motor will be apart mind as well swap them out.
the intercooler won't be out for awhile and even when it comes out forged pistons will be safer and you will be able to run even more boost.
Hey torquie, what do you think about using the Roe blower on a stroker motor? For some reason I have a vague recollection that you held forth on that issue once a while back, but I may be wrong. Either way, I'd like to hear it again.
Torquemonster
Enthusiast
Trent - I'm a little rusty on some of the detailed stuff now - but will be getting more up to speed when my own project comes on stream.
Any of the top tuners will be able to tell you the advantages of the valves and brands they use on their hot head/cam packages etc.
I've not got into discussion with them about the things I've talked about above - so it would be inappropriate to comment on their behalf.
I can tell you that both Hughes Engines in Washington Illinois (about 2 hours from Chicago) and Ray Barton Racing Engines in PA do that kind of stuff for the Mopar V8's routinely. Both have built record breaking engines using tight squish pistons. There is no magical difference between the 2 engines - just extra cylinders.
I'd find a good machine shop with the capability and reputation for precision work - able to measure tolerances of +/- 0.0002" accurately (Note: many will claim they can but it is BS - it takes good gear and skill), then work with them to design the parts you want custom made and have the design specs sent to the appropriate company for manufacture - e.g. JE or GRP for pistons etc.
Any top race engine builder could do this - incl. the Ford and Chevy guys lke Sonny Leonard etc!!! But if you can find a reputable Viper tuner that is happy to work with you - you'll have at least the advantage of working with someone who has an overall understanding of the whole car - not just the longblock. Unless you want to be independent - I'd start talking with the Viper tuners.
Any of the top tuners will be able to tell you the advantages of the valves and brands they use on their hot head/cam packages etc.
I've not got into discussion with them about the things I've talked about above - so it would be inappropriate to comment on their behalf.
I can tell you that both Hughes Engines in Washington Illinois (about 2 hours from Chicago) and Ray Barton Racing Engines in PA do that kind of stuff for the Mopar V8's routinely. Both have built record breaking engines using tight squish pistons. There is no magical difference between the 2 engines - just extra cylinders.
I'd find a good machine shop with the capability and reputation for precision work - able to measure tolerances of +/- 0.0002" accurately (Note: many will claim they can but it is BS - it takes good gear and skill), then work with them to design the parts you want custom made and have the design specs sent to the appropriate company for manufacture - e.g. JE or GRP for pistons etc.
Any top race engine builder could do this - incl. the Ford and Chevy guys lke Sonny Leonard etc!!! But if you can find a reputable Viper tuner that is happy to work with you - you'll have at least the advantage of working with someone who has an overall understanding of the whole car - not just the longblock. Unless you want to be independent - I'd start talking with the Viper tuners.
Larry Macedo
Enthusiast
For those that want to know, the quench (a squish effect that causes turbulence for mixing fuel and air = more power) is the area between the flat portion at the top of the piston to the flat portion of the cylinder head.
Torquemonster
Enthusiast
Hey torquie, what do you think about using the Roe blower on a stroker motor? For some reason I have a vague recollection that you held forth on that issue once a while back, but I may be wrong. Either way, I'd like to hear it again.
I like strokers to a point - and adding boost to them seems a good idea - except you need to be mindful of the maths and basic block capabilities under the extra stress of boost. As a rule of thumb as you go up in stroke you should go down in rpm - you can build around that for racing, but for durable street engines - once you go under 1.5 rod stroke ratio you're asking a lot to spin that baby much past 5500rpm - the piston speed on such a short rod ratio is huge!!!
Remember that boost is like adding more engine cc - so there is a valid argument - why stroke and boost - just build a really strong stock sized motor with good rod stroke ratio then add more boost to get more torque. That way you can still safely rpm and hold it.
There's a lot of argument over rod stroke ratios etc - at end of the day - a good ratio helps an engine to be reliable at wide open throttle and enjoys good bore life and good rpm potential. A poor ratio is ok for low end but has to be very strong to take high rpm and puts a lot of side pressure against the bores.
what have i said? not sure
My opinion is this: I'd rather build a strong motor and boost it than stroke and boost it.
I'll guarantee you I can make more power reliably from 488 or 500 cubes on boost than on 550 plus boost - the block will let go at 550 long before it will at 500 - anyone who doesn't agree doesn't understand engine maths. The rod stroke ratio at 550 cube is good for a tractor but not a 6000rpm long life street/track engine. When someone builds a 1500hp 550 V10 that can stand WOT for more than a few seconds - I'll change my mind - but the stress will be huge.
BUT - If you reduce redline to 5500 or 5800rpm max - a big stroker will sound good on the car resume and will make more torque/power at any given boost level - so you could make more power on less boost.
It could be built stronger than stock as a stroker should have a stronger crank than stock, and should have better rods and pistons - but if you spin a 543 cube V10 to 6000rpm and stay there - eventually you will be asking for trouble IMHO.
So it comes down to what you want. If you limit the rpms - the stroker will make more power. But you use a Roe SC - known for its bottom end - so why add a stroker? Why not add better rods, pistons, heads and cam - and make the hp and safely rpm to 6000? Which one rocks your boat?
Torquemonster
Enthusiast
Thanks for that Larry - that's true and anything more than 0.045" has no effective squish effect at all. If it's over 0.045 it might as well be 0.100"
Because it takes a lot of precision to get a good squish you won't see it on most factory engines - it has to be blueprinted into it and requires machining and sometimes - custom pistons.
Sounds like Larry could do that for anyone who wants it.
Thanks Torque, great stuff. As far as why one might go the stroker route with a Roe blower instead of just increasing boost, the only thing I can come up with might be issues related to the volumetric efficiency of the blower. IOW, if by chance this particular blower becomes really inefficient trying to compress enough air into a big V10 to make more than, say, 700 rwhp, going the stroker route would provide an avenue around that problem to gain another 50-75 hp without upping the boost level. Make any sense? And I should note that this is hypothetical because I don't have any data on the efficiency of the blower, and I don't know that anyone has discovered its limits yet. It will be interesting to see what Larry can do with the Roe blower and an intercooler on one of the cars with ported heads and a cam. Maybe mine?
Torquemonster
Enthusiast
Yes - the best way to do that is to use a light (but street sensible) piston with a low compression height and a longer rod. If you are buying rods anyway - get them as long as possible. I'd wager that is what SVS have done to run 7000+rpm - good crank, longer rods and shorter pistons = good rod stroke ratio, lighter bob weight, stronger bottom end + good oiling system = safe high rpm if the valvetrain is built for it.
That is what I will be doing anyway - I can say that for sure.
Torquemonster
Enthusiast
More labour and expense.
No down side re anything else except that if running boost you may need to remove a few cc from heads and increase piston valve reliefs to get compression down to 9:1. For non boost - you could go to 10:1 on pump gas with ease on a tight squish, esp. with a bigger cam like the .588" lift model.
Tight squish gains everywhere - right across rpm band and also improves mpg, response, and emissions if tuned right - it's better all round.
Knowing what the stock "quench" clearance is will be a good start to knowing how much compression will rise by tightening up to 0.035" with all other things staying the same. Thats your starting point - find out stock clearance at TDC.
Torquemonster
Enthusiast
Thanks Torque, great stuff. As far as why one might go the stroker route with a Roe blower instead of just increasing boost, the only thing I can come up with might be issues related to the volumetric efficiency of the blower. IOW, if by chance this particular blower becomes really inefficient trying to compress enough air into a big V10 to make more than, say, 700 rwhp, going the stroker route would provide an avenue around that problem to gain another 50-75 hp without upping the boost level. Make any sense? And I should note that this is hypothetical because I don't have any data on the efficiency of the blower, and I don't know that anyone has discovered its limits yet. It will be interesting to see what Larry can do with the Roe blower and an intercooler on one of the cars with ported heads and a cam. Maybe mine?
I hear you - but here's a thought - if the blower cannot feed enough air to go over 700rwhp at 488 cube - adding more cubes will ask for more air the blower cannot give it - so all you gain is more bottom end torque and power but no gain up top and also peaking at lower rpms as the airflow peaks earlier.
More power requires more cfm and a bigger engine won't supply more air unless it can pump more. The blower does not know what size your engine is - it has a fixed CFM rating for any given speed. When it hits max - it is max regardless of size of engine.
Vic
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Torquie's my hero!
Torquemonster
Enthusiast
Hey Vic - shucks man.
I know that when you take me around the track in your Viper and scare the living crap out of me - you'll be my hero - just don't kill me ok? I need to live so i can write it all up on the forum!
I know I'll be in safe hands
I know that when you take me around the track in your Viper and scare the living crap out of me - you'll be my hero - just don't kill me ok? I need to live so i can write it all up on the forum!
I know I'll be in safe hands When Larry Macedo built my motor he was meticulous in the tolerances. He would hand file each ring for each piston....trial fit it measure the tolerances, remove file it again...reassemble and measure it. Some cylinders he do this 6-10 times until he had the exact tolerances he was looking for. He sent many hours and days assembling the short block and very particular in selecting the machine shop. The machine shop he selected had done some Nascar engines machine work as well.
I was also impressed with Larry patience with me ... I have a good background knowledge of motors but not as detailed as Larry's. He would take the time to explain why he was doing something and the costs of doing it before we did each step.
I have seen many of his projects appear in numerous magazines due to the performance of their engines. He was built up Lt1 motors ( Camero, Vettes, SS Impallea). Also getting serious perforance out of Porsches. His most current project is a Ferrari.
Cudaman
I was also impressed with Larry patience with me ... I have a good background knowledge of motors but not as detailed as Larry's. He would take the time to explain why he was doing something and the costs of doing it before we did each step.
I have seen many of his projects appear in numerous magazines due to the performance of their engines. He was built up Lt1 motors ( Camero, Vettes, SS Impallea). Also getting serious perforance out of Porsches. His most current project is a Ferrari.
Cudaman
