My first Dyno experience

wastntim · Nov 11, 2007

Jon (2002 viper gts acr) and I were talking about getting some numbers for our cars. I called over to SVS and Ron, Sr. was able to line us up for Saturday afternoon. Ron, as always, was very cool and showed us some of the awesome work they do there on some incredible machines, including their 230mph car.

I wanted a baseline number for my car as I'm hoping to put heads & cam on the car next year.

Heres a graph, mods are: smooth tubes, K&N, belanger headers, RT cats and catback. Before we started I guessed 440 Jon guessed 430. :2tu:

I have to give Jon props for knowing to reset the pcm. Before this run I was showing 20 less hp. :omg:

Anybody think I have a chance of getting to 600hp NA?

FE 065 · Nov 11, 2007

Only if you opt for THE HEADS.

Edit: Or a LPE build.

wastntim · Nov 11, 2007

FE 065 said:
Only if you opt for THE HEADS.

Edit: Or a LPE build.

Who makes THE HEADS?

FE 065 · Nov 11, 2007

You know..those $6000+ Stryker heads !

jmcylinderheads.com

ViperJohn · Nov 11, 2007

You will definitely need to swap the heads to in order to achieve 600 rwhp. Coincidentally, my 02 made 440 rwhp with similar mods. Cream puffs are consistent.

DrumrBoy · Nov 12, 2007

I had a terrible experience with SVS, you should be very cautious in trusting your car to them.

The car made less power after an SVS rebuild. Through carelessness or misattention SVS put the the clutch in incorrectly (pics available - replaced in a couple of months), the rear u-joints were assembled incorrectly (replaced the diff in 4 months), approximately half of the hydraulic lifters were installed backwards (they're directional, half correct would be "random") requiring replacement (and new expensive gaskets), the new valvesprings were shimmed ALOT and poorly, requiring replacement within 9 months.

Needless to say the car ran pretty poorly. Ron Sr accompanied me on several trips to the dyno (charts available) where the car made mid 400 RWHP but the HP curve went dead flat at about 3800 rpm. His sage counsel to me was "enjoy the car, that's as good as its going to get".

I had the top end rebuilt with proper springs, the lifters installed correctly, some competent headwork and, not surprisingly it made 555/585.

If you'd like to see what Ron charges for the replacement of two half shafts I can post a photocopy. Though I've seen folks change them in a few hours at the track, it seemed to take SVS's guys almost 30 hours to accomplish the task in a shop! I think even he was embarrassed by that one.

Lastly, make sure you get everything that you're billled for. I can show you receipts from SVS that show both the bill for parts not installed and then the follow up no-charge invoice for "parts that s/b installed last time". Had I not gone through the car and identified billed-but-not-installed parts, one can only guess what would have happened.

SVS can definitely build a great car. They can also do terribly shoddy work.

Question you have to ask yourself is, which SVS will show up when my car is on the rack.

Ron(s) please do feel free to rebut any of this. Remember I have the photos and receipts to support every assertion made above.....

v10kingsnake · Nov 12, 2007

crickets...

SSSSE YA · Nov 12, 2007

FE 065 said:
You know..those $6000+ Stryker heads !

jmcylinderheads.com

just do it. (nike)

wastntim · Nov 12, 2007

SSSSE YA - got any dyno numbers on your car?

PDCjonny · Nov 12, 2007

v10kingsnake said:
crickets...

Well that certainly took the air out of the room... :eater:

SVS Turbo · Nov 12, 2007

DrumrBoy said:
I had a terrible experience with SVS, you should be very cautious in trusting your car to them.

The car made less power after an SVS rebuild. Through carelessness or misattention SVS put the the clutch in incorrectly (pics available - replaced in a couple of months), the rear u-joints were assembled incorrectly (replaced the diff in 4 months), approximately half of the hydraulic lifters were installed backwards (they're directional, half correct would be "random") requiring replacement (and new expensive gaskets), the new valvesprings were shimmed ALOT and poorly, requiring replacement within 9 months.

Needless to say the car ran pretty poorly. Ron Sr accompanied me on several trips to the dyno (charts available) where the car made mid 400 RWHP but the HP curve went dead flat at about 3800 rpm. His sage counsel to me was "enjoy the car, that's as good as its going to get".

I had the top end rebuilt with proper springs, the lifters installed correctly, some competent headwork and, not surprisingly it made 555/585.

If you'd like to see what Ron charges for the replacement of two half shafts I can post a photocopy. Though I've seen folks change them in a few hours at the track, it seemed to take SVS's guys almost 30 hours to accomplish the task in a shop! I think even he was embarrassed by that one.

Lastly, make sure you get everything that you're billled for. I can show you receipts from SVS that show both the bill for parts not installed and then the follow up no-charge invoice for "parts that s/b installed last time". Had I not gone through the car and identified billed-but-not-installed parts, one can only guess what would have happened.

SVS can definitely build a great car. They can also do terribly shoddy work.

Question you have to ask yourself is, which SVS will show up when my car is on the rack.

Ron(s) please do feel free to rebut any of this. Remember I have the photos and receipts to support every assertion made above.....

Bob,

Thank you for allowing me to "feel free to rebut any of this"

Here's the first rebut to the first assertion you make in your quote above

You state that "the car made less power after an SVS rebuild"

Around Jan of 2003 you brought us a Venom 650R that you purchased from Buhler Dodge. There was extensive leakage where the headers/heads meet, the engine wouldn't go over 3200 rpm, The piggy back system was a cluster of wires that looked like an experiment, The leak down compression showed the engine at 60-90% leakage on the Even cylinders and 10-15% on the Odd cylinders, The trans was beat on and the diff was howling etc. etc and later we find out that the abuse from nitrous when examining the valves. Basically you bought a less than desireable car and brought it to us for remedy. We were kind enough to write up that fact to Buhler Dodge and they gave you an additional $1500.

How did you end up buying such a car

Here's a few more facts about the Viper you purchased:

1. Stock Engine
2. Stock Cam
3. Stock Heads
4. No fuel system

The ONLY way that the engine that you brought us was near 650Hp was with huge shots of nitrous.

You dealt directly with our engine builder and you discussed with him what you wanted done to your engine. You also supplied him with a cam you specified and wanted it added into your rebuild. You directed your build Bob the way that YOU wanted it done, not the way we told you what was needed in order to make more power than stock!

Our suggestions to you was to add a fuel system and install heads that flowed better than stock and then figure out what was going on with the mess of an engine controller.

You didn't want to spend anymore money than what YOU THOUGHT WAS NECESSARY because it was already costing you from the bad decision you made in buying this Viper.

You stated in your quote above how much the car made after the SVS rebuild: "400 rwhp but went dead after the 3800 mark". How do you expect the engine to make more power than stock when it has stock components and cam that YOU SPECIFIED in the rebuild??????? It dropped off at 3800 because you didn't want to pay for any tuning or figuring out what was going on with the engine controller. We kept trying to tell you what was needed and you didn't follow our prescription at all.

So for the first assertion please tell us all how the car made less power after an SVS rebuild

viperdude118 · Nov 12, 2007

interesting........ :eater:

plumcrazy · Nov 12, 2007

i have a feeling this is gonna be a long thread that ends up being locked

treesnake · Nov 12, 2007

Pssssttttt... I just got a set of Stryker heads, Jesel RR's and matching pushrods for my new engine. (Almost done) I got them with a "group buy" that is/was running on the "Viper truck" forum. Sorry, I promised the guys sponsoring the buy that I wouldn't announce the price. Let's just say the Jesels' and pushrods ($1200.00+) were almost free. Keep in mind that you will need to get different rocker arms to fit the Stryker casting I did tell them that I would pass the info on to get the number of people needed to make this work.

From everything that I am told, these heads are awesome and will greatly improve any engine. I can't wait.

Here's the link for the group buy Group buy on striker heads - Page 13 - Viper Truck Club of America

wastntim · Nov 12, 2007

How much is it to change out all the internals to forged and go with a FI setup in comparison?

DrumrBoy · Nov 13, 2007

SVS Turbo said:
Bob,

Thank you for allowing me to "feel free to rebut any of this"

Here's the first rebut to the first assertion you make in your quote above

You state that "the car made less power after an SVS rebuild"

Around Jan of 2003 you brought us a Venom 650R that you purchased from Buhler Dodge. There was extensive leakage where the headers/heads meet, the engine wouldn't go over 3200 rpm, The piggy back system was a cluster of wires that looked like an experiment, The leak down compression showed the engine at 60-90% leakage on the Even cylinders and 10-15% on the Odd cylinders, The trans was beat on and the diff was howling etc. etc and later we find out that the abuse from nitrous when examining the valves. Basically you bought a less than desireable car and brought it to us for remedy. We were kind enough to write up that fact to Buhler Dodge and they gave you an additional $1500.

How did you end up buying such a car

Here's a few more facts about the Viper you purchased:

1. Stock Engine
2. Stock Cam
3. Stock Heads
4. No fuel system

The ONLY way that the engine that you brought us was near 650Hp was with huge shots of nitrous.

You dealt directly with our engine builder and you discussed with him what you wanted done to your engine. You also supplied him with a cam you specified and wanted it added into your rebuild. You directed your build Bob the way that YOU wanted it done, not the way we told you what was needed in order to make more power than stock!

Our suggestions to you was to add a fuel system and install heads that flowed better than stock and then figure out what was going on with the mess of an engine controller.

You didn't want to spend anymore money than what YOU THOUGHT WAS NECESSARY because it was already costing you from the bad decision you made in buying this Viper.

You stated in your quote above how much the car made after the SVS rebuild: "400 rwhp but went dead after the 3800 mark". How do you expect the engine to make more power than stock when it has stock components and cam that YOU SPECIFIED in the rebuild??????? It dropped off at 3800 because you didn't want to pay for any tuning or figuring out what was going on with the engine controller. We kept trying to tell you what was needed and you didn't follow our prescription at all.

So for the first assertion please tell us all how the car made less power after an SVS rebuild

Jr.,

Nice piece of revisionist history. :lmao:

You got the year right and the dealer I bought the car from right, but after that its pretty much standard SVS. Few facts, and bad business.

The car ran fine, made 520RW and I brought it in to you guys to see if you could help me get through motor vehicle inspection. Nothhin more. From there it was all downhill.

You allege many things that simply aren't true. I still have the trans that you claim was beat and it works fine. The piggyback was working fine - you guys didn't understand it so you broke it apart to see what it was.....rendering it pretty useless. You did return the broken parts in a box for which I'm forever grateful. It would have been much nicer to get my cam orUnitrax back but that was apparently asking too much.

You also assert that I directed the engine build. Jr. even you're not that stupid. I would take my car to SVS to get it through inspection and advocate pulling the engine, and then direct the build with a third-party shop? C'mon.

You say I delivered a cam to the builder? Please check the facts. Your Dad spec'd the cam. Most likely it was a mispurchased cam he had on the shelf and found a "home" for. One can't be certain of this but I can tell you I tried to get the specs on the cam you guys put in there for months and SVS wouldn't provide them. I eventually succeeded by getting your office assistant to fax them to me when neither "Ron" was around! I have the fax, sir.

You suggest that I directed Ted (your engine machinist/assembler) on the rebuild. I met Ted once. Your Dad drove me over to the shop so I could see a pair of heads he wanted me to see. Whether or not they were from my car, only Sr. and Ted know. Directing the rebuild? Who are you kidding? Besides, if i was directing the rebuild, why would I need SVS....because you're such cost effective and thorough wrenches?

I currently run the stock fuel system and make 555/585. The same fuel system you suggest was causing me difficulty at 400. I'm guessing that in reailty the fuel system wasn't what was limiting me to 400. Perhaps you disagree?

Your revisionist history is insulting. Sr mishandled the customer, Jr was a bystander. A few yesars later Jr becomes the expert on the account. Draw your own conclusions folks. Maybe we can ask Jimmy?

Lastly, I notice you didn't bother to refute any of the information about billing for parts not installed, installing lifters incorrectly, misassembling clutches and half shafts (even after spending 30 hours to do so!).

We'll just go a few more rounds with pix of bills and other assorted paperwork I retained from the experience and let folks judge for themselves.
:2tu:

viperpilot99 · Nov 22, 2007

DrumrBoy said:
Jr.,

Nice piece of revisionist history.

You got the year right and the dealer I bought the car from right, but after that its pretty much standard SVS. Few facts, and bad business.

The car ran fine, made 520RW and I brought it in to you guys to see if you could help me get through motor vehicle inspection. Nothhin more. From there it was all downhill.

You allege many things that simply aren't true. I still have the trans that you claim was beat and it works fine. The piggyback was working fine - you guys didn't understand it so you broke it apart to see what it was.....rendering it pretty useless. You did return the broken parts in a box for which I'm forever grateful. It would have been much nicer to get my cam orUnitrax back but that was apparently asking too much.

You also assert that I directed the engine build. Jr. even you're not that stupid. I would take my car to SVS to get it through inspection and advocate pulling the engine, and then direct the build with a third-party shop? C'mon.

You say I delivered a cam to the builder? Please check the facts. Your Dad spec'd the cam. Most likely it was a mispurchased cam he had on the shelf and found a "home" for. One can't be certain of this but I can tell you I tried to get the specs on the cam you guys put in there for months and SVS wouldn't provide them. I eventually succeeded by getting your office assistant to fax them to me when neither "Ron" was around! I have the fax, sir.

You suggest that I directed Ted (your engine machinist/assembler) on the rebuild. I met Ted once. Your Dad drove me over to the shop so I could see a pair of heads he wanted me to see. Whether or not they were from my car, only Sr. and Ted know. Directing the rebuild? Who are you kidding? Besides, if i was directing the rebuild, why would I need SVS....because you're such cost effective and thorough wrenches?

I currently run the stock fuel system and make 555/585. The same fuel system you suggest was causing me difficulty at 400. I'm guessing that in reailty the fuel system wasn't what was limiting me to 400. Perhaps you disagree?

Your revisionist history is insulting. Sr mishandled the customer, Jr was a bystander. A few yesars later Jr becomes the expert on the account. Draw your own conclusions folks. Maybe we can ask Jimmy?

Lastly, I notice you didn't bother to refute any of the information about billing for parts not installed, installing lifters incorrectly, misassembling clutches and half shafts (even after spending 30 hours to do so!).

We'll just go a few more rounds with pix of bills and other assorted paperwork I retained from the experience and let folks judge for themselves.

How much was the cost of installing those half shafts?

Any other member here have done extensive work with SVS and have positive or negative things to say about it please chime in.

DrumrBoy · Nov 22, 2007

Thanks for reminding me to do that.....I felt bad about hijacking the thread. I'll start another one tomorrow and post the bills, dyno sheets and other factual info so readers can make an informed choice.

big-n-italian · Nov 22, 2007

Any other member here have done extensive work with SVS and have positive or negative things to say about it please chime in.

approximately (2) yrs ago, when i started my supercharger project, i called SVS about possibly doing the install. whoever i talked to was very knowledgeable. but as soon as i was told that a leak down and compression check was needed, and that it would take an estimated time of 6-8 HOURS to complete, :omg:

, the phone call was over.

i already knew the answer, but i immediately posted the question to these boards about the test and the estimated time to complete. the consensus felt that the test was a good idea, but they also felt that only a mentally handicapped, wheelchair-bound, quadriplegic, would take 6-8 hours to do a LD/COMP test. and i agree.

( iwould post a link to the post, but a search feature in the archive section doesnt exist)

SNKEBIT · Nov 23, 2007

I think there will be more on this thread ..............

ROGUE · Nov 23, 2007

I'm sure Viper TT/10 would have something to say... if he didn't have a rod hanging out the side of that motor that took 2 years to build.

6-8 hours for a leakdown?

30 hours to install half shafts?

Jesus, if I couldn't do both of those in 6 hours I would beat myself with a torque wrench.

grcforce327 · Nov 23, 2007

My car has been at SVS since april,and should be dynoed next week.I will be more that happy to share my complete experience when finished.

GTSjbud · Nov 23, 2007

ROGUE said:
I'm sure Viper TT/10 would have something to say... if he didn't have a rod hanging out the side of that motor that took 2 years to build.

6-8 hours for a leakdown?

30 hours to install half shafts?

Jesus, if I couldn't do both of those in 6 hours I would beat myself with a torque wrench.

"I couldn't do both of those in 6 hours I would beat myself with a torque wrench" LOL!! that is funny :lmao:

Disturbed · Nov 24, 2007

You don't need a set of styker heads to get 600rwhp N/A.

Just a set of stock heads ported and setup by Greg Good. Even with my wimpy cam (like a 708) I made 565rwhp/610rwtq on the dyno but with my lousy driving and hocky puc tires I trap 127mph in the 1/4mi.

600rwhp N/A is easy these days. 700rwhp N/A is the new goal.

TOOOFST · Nov 25, 2007

DrumrBoy said:
I had a terrible experience with SVS, you should be very cautious in trusting your car to them.

The car made less power after an SVS rebuild. Through carelessness or misattention SVS put the the clutch in incorrectly (pics available - replaced in a couple of months), the rear u-joints were assembled incorrectly (replaced the diff in 4 months), approximately half of the hydraulic lifters were installed backwards (they're directional, half correct would be "random") requiring replacement (and new expensive gaskets), the new valvesprings were shimmed ALOT and poorly, requiring replacement within 9 months.

Needless to say the car ran pretty poorly. Ron Sr accompanied me on several trips to the dyno (charts available) where the car made mid 400 RWHP but the HP curve went dead flat at about 3800 rpm. His sage counsel to me was "enjoy the car, that's as good as its going to get".

I had the top end rebuilt with proper springs, the lifters installed correctly, some competent headwork and, not surprisingly it made 555/585.

If you'd like to see what Ron charges for the replacement of two half shafts I can post a photocopy. Though I've seen folks change them in a few hours at the track, it seemed to take SVS's guys almost 30 hours to accomplish the task in a shop! I think even he was embarrassed by that one.

Lastly, make sure you get everything that you're billled for. I can show you receipts from SVS that show both the bill for parts not installed and then the follow up no-charge invoice for "parts that s/b installed last time". Had I not gone through the car and identified billed-but-not-installed parts, one can only guess what would have happened.

SVS can definitely build a great car. They can also do terribly shoddy work.

Question you have to ask yourself is, which SVS will show up when my car is on the rack.

Ron(s) please do feel free to rebut any of this. Remember I have the photos and receipts to support every assertion made above.....

Always tough to prove the details of these stories, but I can say:
Bob paid SVS for a correct running car that they dyno'd.
I did witness the car on viperclub dyno day, and the #'s and power curve were
embarrasing. I recommended Albert Dashto owner of Brakes Plus in Des Plaines.
He did the Head's Cam package on TOOOFST and Issac's PVTJET. He's the fairest
priced guy in town with the hot rod building experience to match. He just finished
a tune on Roe S/C car that is amazing, like 675/750 on a 10lb pulley and heads.
Albert fixed many issues in the motor and gave BOB exactly what he promissed
for the price.
He also has done a nice S/C kit on a SRT RAM. This is the Tuner you wan,t a guy
who loves his work and has no plan to get rich on your job, just keep busy! :headbang:

SVS Turbo · Nov 28, 2007

DrumrBoy said:
Jr.,

Nice piece of revisionist history.

You got the year right and the dealer I bought the car from right, but after that its pretty much standard SVS. Few facts, and bad business.

The car ran fine, made 520RW and I brought it in to you guys to see if you could help me get through motor vehicle inspection. Nothhin more. From there it was all downhill.

You allege many things that simply aren't true. I still have the trans that you claim was beat and it works fine. The piggyback was working fine - you guys didn't understand it so you broke it apart to see what it was.....rendering it pretty useless. You did return the broken parts in a box for which I'm forever grateful. It would have been much nicer to get my cam orUnitrax back but that was apparently asking too much.

You also assert that I directed the engine build. Jr. even you're not that stupid. I would take my car to SVS to get it through inspection and advocate pulling the engine, and then direct the build with a third-party shop? C'mon.

You say I delivered a cam to the builder? Please check the facts. Your Dad spec'd the cam. Most likely it was a mispurchased cam he had on the shelf and found a "home" for. One can't be certain of this but I can tell you I tried to get the specs on the cam you guys put in there for months and SVS wouldn't provide them. I eventually succeeded by getting your office assistant to fax them to me when neither "Ron" was around! I have the fax, sir.

You suggest that I directed Ted (your engine machinist/assembler) on the rebuild. I met Ted once. Your Dad drove me over to the shop so I could see a pair of heads he wanted me to see. Whether or not they were from my car, only Sr. and Ted know. Directing the rebuild? Who are you kidding? Besides, if i was directing the rebuild, why would I need SVS....because you're such cost effective and thorough wrenches?

I currently run the stock fuel system and make 555/585. The same fuel system you suggest was causing me difficulty at 400. I'm guessing that in reailty the fuel system wasn't what was limiting me to 400. Perhaps you disagree?

Your revisionist history is insulting. Sr mishandled the customer, Jr was a bystander. A few yesars later Jr becomes the expert on the account. Draw your own conclusions folks. Maybe we can ask Jimmy?

Lastly, I notice you didn't bother to refute any of the information about billing for parts not installed, installing lifters incorrectly, misassembling clutches and half shafts (even after spending 30 hours to do so!).

We'll just go a few more rounds with pix of bills and other assorted paperwork I retained from the experience and let folks judge for themselves.

Bob,

You're right I was a directly involved in the business very observant bystander but without any investigation from 5 years ago I inncorrectly stated some comments above.

I'm wrong about saying that you spec'd the cam with Ted at Opel. Also the exact date when your car came in. It has taken me a while to go through all the documents and pictures from 5 years ago.

I will have our SVS story to add to yours very soon

Ron Jr

00SVTdubs · Nov 29, 2007

I just find it CRAZY how people go out of their way to make these outragous claims against you SVS... people must have a lot of time on their hands and must be truely SICK to come after you guys for NOTHING. I honestly feel terrible for you guys... all innocent and just out doing the best work you can possibly do, at a fair price...

In the words of Borat............................. NOT

I hope you guys do get the boot off of here, you truely deserve it! Maybe you can set another one of your pointless records for most court appearances by any tuner ever on E7423 fuel in your "street viper"

I better shut my mouth though... I dont want to find myself in court with you guys over something I said on the internet.... God knows, with all of your experience, you guys have the better lawyer. I heard he only does SVS cases and does quite well for himself! What is he going to do when you go out of business? How will he eat? You have made him a rich man... maybe he can help you guys out on your next business venture!!!!!! (disclaimer... sarcasm)

GTSjbud · Nov 29, 2007

00SVTdubs said:
I just find it CRAZY how people go out of their way to make these outragous claims against you SVS... people must have a lot of time on their hands and must be truely SICK to come after you guys for NOTHING. I honestly feel terrible for you guys... all innocent and just out doing the best work you can possibly do, at a fair price...

In the words of Borat............................. NOT

I hope you guys do get the boot off of here, you truely deserve it! Maybe you can set another one of your pointless records for most court appearances by any tuner ever on E7423 fuel in your "street viper"

I better shut my mouth though... I dont want to find myself in court with you guys over something I said on the internet.... God knows, with all of your experience, you guys have the better lawyer. I heard he only does SVS cases and does quite well for himself! What is he going to do when you go out of business? How will he eat? You have made him a rich man... maybe he can help you guys out on your next business venture!!!!!! (disclaimer... sarcasm)

I couldn't have said it better myself! :2tu:

DrumrBoy · Nov 29, 2007

TOOOFST said:
Always tough to prove the details of these stories, but I can say:
Bob paid SVS for a correct running car that they dyno'd.
I did witness the car on viperclub dyno day, and the #'s and power curve were
embarrasing. I recommended Albert Dashto owner of Brakes Plus in Des Plaines.
He did the Head's Cam package on TOOOFST and Issac's PVTJET. He's the fairest
priced guy in town with the hot rod building experience to match. He just finished
a tune on Roe S/C car that is amazing, like 675/750 on a 10lb pulley and heads.
Albert fixed many issues in the motor and gave BOB exactly what he promissed
for the price.
He also has done a nice S/C kit on a SRT RAM. This is the Tuner you wan,t a guy
who loves his work and has no plan to get rich on your job, just keep busy!

I can vouch for Albert's work and ethics. He and Finish Line got me straightened out.

If you're looking to build or tune in the Chicago area, he's the best if you value a knowledgable, hard-working, honest hot rod guy. (We forgive him for the Corvette stuff he also does!!!!) :usa:

My first Dyno experience

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