10 throttle bodies... Cool? or Junk?

[KepRght]

I found a 10 throttle body setup that removes the viper intake for extreme applications. Who would use such a thing? I can imagine a bad ass TT setup taking advantage of this.

Here is the link:

http://www.giwasa.com/viper_10throttles_frameset_gb.htm

Here is the copy:

10 THROTTLES KIT BODIES
GIWASA built a 10 throttle bodies kit for RT10 & GTS , same as the GTSR unit in 62mm(2,48in diameter) this unit is originally for the GTSRR 1200 HP GIWASA

Size & fittings are done for take place of the original intake manifold without any modifications , its a ready to go turn key system .
Fittings are done for :
- the original throttle cable
- the original wiring for the injectors
- screw for the original gasoline hose
- for the electronic idle valve
- for the heather vacuum pipe
- the map sensor connection
- the original vacuum tube from the brakes
note 1 : with the GIWASA 10 throttle bodies & original engine the idle speed nivel is stable on 700 rpm .
note 2 : no body modification is required for the GIWASA kit mounting , original hood can be conserved .
GIWASA kit is built around 2 main parts , one set of 5 throttle for each side of the engine . All the butterflys are hermetic bearings mounted , its a guarentee for many miles of smiles . They are extremly wear resistants . Equilibrating the different bodies between them can be done by right/left scews also mounted on inox rod ends by aurora

Each 5 throttle part is monobloc to avoid thermical dilatation who can make idle perturbations , special fuel rail and new size injectors are delivred with GIWASA system
the ECU-PCM upgrade is include in this system .
note : new injector sizing & ecu upgrade are done for stock engine , on request dedicate special sizes & ecu programming .

CARBON AIR BOX GTSR lookalike is delivred with the kit , a flat big size K&N filter is fitted on top like on the INDY CAR or F1 engines

 

[Bill B]

TT and 10 N/A throttle bodies are two different animals. You use the 10 throttle bodies to make N/A power where the sanctioning body doesn't allow forced induction.

 

[Fiorano]

This has been discussed before. Consensus is that it is really for racing only (high RPM range power). You'd lose low end power and the cost for this is huge. I love the look of injection stacks though.

 

[FE 065]

I wrote them to see what the $$ damages are..

 

[Torquemonster]

It's the ultimate setup for n/a or TT. The TT would require a custom air box that would require R & D flow work to ensure equal distribution - but end result would be the ultimate Viper engine using stock head and block castings.

On a motor like this talk about loss of bottom end is irrelevant - it idles at 700rpm, it could be tuned to go get groceries and pull away crisply from 1500rpm in 5th or 6th - who needs more than that in a balls out engine? This is a race tech part not a tractor.

Mid range and top end power under boost would be potentially more power than anyone could use on the street. It'd need a dry sump and custom crank and rods etc to handle the extra rpms, but the throttle response with lightened flywheel would be electric - you could crack the throttle like a whip!

I want one

 

[ViperJoe]

I bet that ***** is 10k :-0

 

[KepRght]

Yo JR, I think this should be part of your new SVS STAGE IV TT package that not even NASA has the budget for, But hey, we gotta have a dream right?


PS. How would you go about tuning this thing? Another 50k into R&D? I have seen the #10 issues, wondering if this would aleivate the problem.

I liked the part about cracking the throttle like a whip... I want one!

 

[SVS Turbo]

Yo JR, I think this should be part of your new SVS STAGE IV TT package that not even NASA has the budget for, But hey, we gotta have a dream right?


PS. How would you go about tuning this thing? Another 50k into R&D? I have seen the #10 issues, wondering if this would aleivate the problem.

I liked the part about cracking the throttle like a whip... I want one!

We have tested with the GTSR ten throttle body intake, built some different configurations along the same lines, came up with something that performs well, and have some really cool custom intakes in the works!

NASA? For the SVS Stryker TT stage IV, V, VI,........well I guess it stands for Need Another Seperate Account.

Jr.

 

[Mike Brunton]

Giwasa? Aren't these the guys that talked about some crazy powerful turbo setup they had, and they had pics of the car on their site, and there was no intercooler or any "turbo" stuff visible? And then they had pics of the car after it had obviously been on fire?

Maybe I'm thinking of someone else. But I've never heard of anyone using anything from 'Giwasa'

 

[jimandela]

they look cool!!

 

[SVS Turbo]

You must be registered for see images

This was development over a year ago. Things are much different NOW but follow similar principles. Utilizing the 10 throttle body intake is difficult keeping each throttle body in sync. The large intake 10 body is necessary for achieving higher rpm, but the linkage to each butterfly is a tedious job that is more suited for the racetrack. We've come up with newer designs that work for street driven applications.

Jr.

 

[Gerald]

What I don't understand is, it's a biiiiiatch trying to get 2 throttle bodies synched and having your car drive right.. What's it like trying to keep 10 throttle bodies adjusted properly?

Gerald

 

[Torquemonster]

What I don't understand is, it's a biiiiiatch trying to get 2 throttle bodies synched and having your car drive right.. What's it like trying to keep 10 throttle bodies adjusted properly?

Gerald

grin. Once the hardware is worked out right - it is a software issue and a computer could not care if it has to keep 2 in synch or 10 - long as it has the computing power to do it - you just need good software.

why do you think you'll pay $80k for a Caldwell LeMans engine? If it were easy everyone would do it.

It can be done. Remember the old Weber IDA carbs - they offered one centuri per cylinder and tuned/sized right nothing could touch them in the pre injection days. They were king of the track. Same principle - trouble is very few know how to get them just right... which is good.

Love that SVS pic - that looks really hot.

 

[Fiorano]

You must be registered for see images

This was development over a year ago. Things are much different NOW but follow similar principles. Utilizing the 10 throttle body intake is difficult keeping each throttle body in sync. The large intake 10 body is necessary for achieving higher rpm, but the linkage to each butterfly is a tedious job that is more suited for the racetrack. We've come up with newer designs that work for street driven applications.

Jr.

So what prices are your 10 throttle body systems for street cars?

 

[FE 065]

They've got a new system coming out in January.

Here's what they told me about the previous 10TB system.

"The old 10TB was working with no loss...

idle was 800 rpm stable
1000 rpm = + 10hp
2000 rpm = + 30 hp
3000 rpm = + 35 hp
4000 rpm = + 50 hp
5000 rpm = + 80 hp
6000 rpm = + 100 hp"

They said the new system might be around $8000. (that'll buy a DIY blower!)

Doing a search, I found THIS website mentioning a 1200hp, 8.20@155 Giwasa Viper..

Looks like they're in or near FRance..

Bon Voyage

 

[KepRght]

This has got to be the best setup for road racing where it is not feasable to run a blower or TT.

I bet this thing with tuning and heads/cam would outperform a blower on a stock long block

thoughts?

 

[Marv S]

Carbon Viper at SEMA had 10 tb intake.

 

[Torquemonster]

This has got to be the best setup for road racing where it is not feasable to run a blower or TT.

I bet this thing with tuning and heads/cam would outperform a blower on a stock long block

thoughts?

Can a 1000+ boosted hp car be beat without boost or NOS? Not realistically - although a Pro Stock engine would do it.... so i assume you mean more like compare to a 800hp boosted engine on stock longblock?

Then - using a race prepared blueprinted long block - yes you could realisitcally beat an 800hp supercharged street Viper. But theres a catch.

With a built up naturally aspirated engine you can also run steeper gears then setup the car to run great track times whereas the blown car will blow the tires trying to keep up - and while they spin you pull ahead.

But you'll be using 7000rpm to do it - don't think you are going to beat a boosted stock long block at stock rpms in a built engine - that's dreaming. So add a dry sump into the equation with better rods,pistons and a race prepped crank. End result will make almost as much hp, not as much torque as the boosted stock long blocks - but cost will be WAY HIGHER...

Advantage is it would be easier to get all of it down, and it will be far better to road race. With slicks, 4.1:1 rear end, sequential shift box and lower ratios in 5th and 6th - it'd be an absolute violent animal. But to make it work would not come cheap!!!

Bottom line - boosted packages are cheaper to run same times.

Still - the $8k package plus heads/cam would look way cool and still run very hard - beating many of the lessor blower cars.

 

[Torquemonster]

They've got a new system coming out in January.

Here's what they told me about the previous 10TB system.

"The old 10TB was working with no loss...

idle was 800 rpm stable
1000 rpm = + 10hp
2000 rpm = + 30 hp
3000 rpm = + 35 hp
4000 rpm = + 50 hp
5000 rpm = + 80 hp
6000 rpm = + 100 hp"

They said the new system might be around $8000. (that'll buy a DIY blower!)

Doing a search, I found THIS website mentioning a 1200hp, 8.20@155 Giwasa Viper..

Looks like they're in or near FRance..

Bon Voyage

Sounds like the bees knees - but if it worked so well - why are they making a new one?

Is the new one supposed to be better everywhere - or just cheaper?

Those GTSRR quoted figures would make it the all time record holder for a street Viper - I wonder if they are actual figures or calculated.

 

[WESTCOAST JASON]

That is one clean looking setup, but I have got to call BS on the following quoted gains.
<quote>
idle was 800 rpm stable
1000 rpm = + 10hp
2000 rpm = + 30 hp
3000 rpm = + 35 hp
4000 rpm = + 50 hp
5000 rpm = + 80 hp
6000 rpm = + 100 hp"
<quote>
There is NO WAY that those gain numbers are based in regards to a stock intake. The stock Viper intake runner length being cut back by nearly 10 inches will NOT make more power at 1000RPM, 2000RPM and so forth. We have spent considerable dyno time on different intakes (including a 10 venturi design with an open plenum that is collecting dust on the shelf because it makes less power than stock until 5000RPM) Taking just 2 inches off of the stock runner length causes major differences, the intake pulses that bounce off of the closed intake valve are kept in the runner based on its length. These intake pulses are key to intake design. This produces your 'power band' - fuel injection is the opposite of carbed vehicles. The shorter the runner, the higher the power band. The longer the runner, the low end torque is better. (remeber the old school, dual quad tunnel rams on drag cars? just the opposite of fuel injection, tunnel rams were for HIGH rpm power) Just like the Dodge (Caldwell) 10 TB setup on the GTS-R's, this one pictured will only be good for high RPM power. There is no way around that regardless of cam, head work, boost, engine controls or witchcraft. Low end torque will definatley be lower than if the car had a stock manifold.

.02

 

[Torquemonster]

I wasn't going to call BS but have to agree with Jason in principle.

For a start - how can you dyno an engine at WOT at 1000rpm - those figures were not dyno figures but estimates - probably much like the performance claims... although I've no doubt the top end would be very good.

The 10TB is still a great idea though on a serious engine - and you can always use longer stacks. There is also more than just length that affects performance - there's also diameter and shape.

Point is however - for those who stick to the stock rpm range - stock is best value.

 

[KepRght]

We have spent considerable dyno time on different intakes (including a 10 venturi design with an open plenum that is collecting dust on the shelf because it makes less power than stock until 5000RPM) Taking just 2 inches off of the stock runner length causes major differences, the intake pulses that bounce off of the closed intake valve are kept in the runner based on its length.

Was this in conjunction with your TT setup, or when running without boost. I would think boost from a T with the 10TB would blow the stock runner length need for low end TQ out of the water?

 

[Mike Brunton]

Yeah these "Giwasa" guys are the ones I was thinking about. Their are full of $h!t in my opinion.

Look at their outrageous claims...

+10HP@1000RPM from a 10-TB setup? Ok, but it won't make power at 6,000RPM then! Two different things!

And check out the 'specs' on their car.

6-speed tranny (stock), 488cid (stock), 1200HP and 1400lb-ft??? And it runs the 1/4 at 8.2 seconds at 155mph.

Gee you would think that since they are
-Only 6-speed into the 8's
-the fastest 1/4 and MPH I've ever heard of
-the most power ever heard of
-the most torque ever heard of
-stock displacement

You would think we would have heard of this car huh? It used to be on their website and they had pics of the "test car" that had caught fire and was sitting by the side of the road. Their claimed pics of this turbo car showed it didn't have any sort of intercooler which is impossible for 1200HP.

So I think these guys sit around dreaming up ideas, and exaggerate the power levels their products make, then try to get people to buy them.

Look at their 'ECU reprogram'. How do they reprogram it? If it's not a piggyback computer, I would be real interested how that claim is met. I don't think they have half the stuff they claim to. I believe the Mopar catalog has a 10TB setup - I wonder if the one on Giwasas website is just the same one from Mopar's website???

Inquiring minds...

 

[KepRght]

I believe the Mopar catalog has a 10TB setup -
Inquiring minds...

Were these ever used in production? GTS-R??

 

[KepRght]

Someone told me that the GTS-R does have this setup... Can someone confirm?

 

[WESTCOAST JASON]

The GTS-R's like #91 & #93 do use the 10TB setup with an open plenum. (or did, I think those cars are retired) and they do work at high RPM. 2000+ RPM idle. It is just not an option for anything under what we consider redline. Additionally, the GTS-R cars do not use a factory PCM. They use Motec. Using that setup under boost makes no sense either, the expense would be huge for little if any gains. The part about them re-programming the factory PCM is also VERY hard to believe. We have spent countless months trying to do that and only recently struck a deal that supposedly makes us the only ones that can do it. There is a LOT of hardware and knowledge needed to change parameters in the JTEC and JTEC+ (Viper PCM's)

 

[Torquemonster]

I find it hard to believe a GTSR idles at 2000rpm - 3000hp Top Alcohol cars can idle at 1500rpm with cams and intakes much bigger, and they don't have EFI.

Even the old Hilborne and Kinsler mechanical injection with velocity stacks could be modified to run excellent on the street - even getting reasonable gas mileage at cruise. It comes down to definition of street I guess.

 

[Dyno Dave]

The SRT-10 Carbon is using the GTSR t/body setup. The thing is a pain-in-the---- to calibrate and get running decently. The runner lengths are too short for a street car and low-end to mid-range torque is compromised. But the SRT-10 has plenty to trade off.

By the way, you can run an engine on the dyno at 1000rpm and lower at WOT on a dyno. I do it almost everyday. You just need the right kind of propshaft and damper.

 

[BoostedV10]

1st Hand exp.

The 10 TB set up on the GTS-R is not made for the street and functions more like a switch... on or off.... at part throttle the mixture goes all over the map due to inconsistencies in the throttle linkage and just the slight expanding and contracting of the cylinder head and intake. The flaw was in the design of linkage and how it connected to each throttle body. It was designed with weight as the main concern and not actual streetabilty. If you compare a Ferrari (street) multi TB set up to the GTS-R set up you will see that it the Ferrari is far more complicated and intricate. The purpose is to keep everything in sync. through out all operating extremes. But in a race car, you have a very confined set of operating criteria therefore the linkage dose not need to accommodate large variances...

The 10 TB set up is a BAD AS* "looking" set up but not really all that practical for street use. (At least the Mopar/GTS-R version) I would defiantly like to see how this other company has the linkage set up ... it appears completely different from the Mopar version. I would like to see how streetable this version is. It looks like they are on the right track for the correct design.

 

[Torquemonster]

Re: 1st Hand exp.

Very interesting!

If I were doing it - I'd run J shaped tubes to have 10 vertical stacks. This would add extra air speed for each throttle body, improve airflow around the intakes, and simplify airbox design. 10 vertical stacks also look just as good, and do not need to be too tall if designed well - especially if force fed.

Unbeleivably powerful setups have been done this way with twin turbos - 1500hp on upwards from that on V8's.

The main problem is hood clearance - but the bulge on the Viper could easily be raised professionally to look like a factory power bulge. The curves are already there to enhance. THis would never be a mass market modification anyway.