99 versus 2000 cam

[Anaconda]

I was reading my Viper book, and I saw that in 2000, they revised the cam to have 6 less degrees of overlap, yet, they have the same horsepower. I am guessing that the 2000 computer is tuned differently than 99, is that correct? Where is the power coming from, since the cam is less aggressive?

Also, this is a totally hypothetical question, but if you put a 99 cam into a 2000, that would have more power, correct? I have NO intentions of doing that, just curious.

 

[Joseph Houss]

From what I understand, the "upgrade" to hyperutectic (sp?) pistons from forged allowed this cam alteration without any decrease in HP.

 

[Russ M]

It does not come from anywhere, creampuffs pull consistantly less power on the dyno. Its not a big difference the power is power.

The reason Dodge didnt change the power rating is because any year viper is still severly under rated so you are still getting more than advertised.

 

[Jeff-00-ACR]

creampuffs pull consistantly less power on the dyno.

I have a 2000 ACR and I've heard this before. Yet I ran an 11.852 at 119.61 bone stock everything, including pilots. I have yet to see many people match that with a stock Viper. It was backed up with multiple 11 sec runs. So perhaps a smoother delivery of power is actually better.

In-car video of my 11.852 1/4 mile run with stock 2000 ACR

 

[radta7]

creampuffs pull consistantly less power on the dyno.

I have a 2000 ACR and I've heard this before. Yet I ran an 11.852 at 119.61 bone stock everything, including pilots. I have yet to see many people match that with a stock Viper. It was backed up with multiple 11 sec runs. So perhaps a smoother delivery of power is actually better.

In-car video of my 11.852 1/4 mile run with stock 2000 ACR

Just to play devils advocate: Which Track? Track prep? Outside Temp? Humidity? Wind? 60ft? Driver ability? tire pressure? Altitude above sea level?

My point is when it comes to times, there is a large number of items that come into play. Don't get me wrong your time was fantastic! Congrats!

 

[Casey]

creampuffs pull consistantly less power on the dyno.

I have a 2000 ACR and I've heard this before. Yet I ran an 11.852 at 119.61 bone stock everything, including pilots. I have yet to see many people match that with a stock Viper. It was backed up with multiple 11 sec runs. So perhaps a smoother delivery of power is actually better.

In-car video of my 11.852 1/4 mile run with stock 2000 ACR

That's pretty awesome!

You are definately one of the few creampuffs that have done that. I have seen many creampuffs with Headers& Full exhaust pull 410 or less on the dyno.

 

[Randy]

It does not come from anywhere, creampuffs pull consistantly less power on the dyno. Its not a big difference the power is power.

I beleive you said that backwards - y2k and later stock Vipers reportedly and consistantly pull *more* power on the dyno than earlier models.

 

[STUGOTS]

It does not come from anywhere, creampuffs pull consistantly less power on the dyno. Its not a big difference the power is power.

I beleive you said that backwards - y2k and later stock Vipers reportedly and consistantly pull *more* power on the dyno than earlier models.

no they put down less power then the 99 and under, also the pre 2000 also make more power from most mods on top of that.

 

[monnieh]

yeah, and the overlap on the 708 cam sounds cooler too.

 

[Randy]

It does not come from anywhere, creampuffs pull consistantly less power on the dyno. Its not a big difference the power is power.

I beleive you said that backwards - y2k and later stock Vipers reportedly and consistantly pull *more* power on the dyno than earlier models.

no they put down less power then the 99 and under

Actually not. The dyno runs I've seen of stock 2000-2002 versus 1999 and previous cars [many of the runs done on the same dyno on the same day, etc, etc] show a couple hp higher on the y2k and later cars... Perhaps your personal experience differs. The difference is not that significant, but, as long as we're saying one is better than the other, might as well have it correct.

 

[Cali Viper]

If we're talking a difference of +/- 5 to 10 HP on an engine that puts over 400 HP to the rear wheels, variation from one vehicle to the next is more than enough to account for the differences observed.

Not to go too far off topic, but how active is the N Cal VCA? I recently bought a 98 GTS and have been debating whether or not to join.

John

 

[Simms]

creampuffs pull consistantly less power on the dyno.

I have a 2000 ACR and I've heard this before. Yet I ran an 11.852 at 119.61 bone stock everything, including pilots. I have yet to see many people match that with a stock Viper. It was backed up with multiple 11 sec runs. So perhaps a smoother delivery of power is actually better.

In-car video of my 11.852 1/4 mile run with stock 2000 ACR

Thats great driving!

 

[radta7]

Actually not. The dyno runs I've seen of stock 2000-2002 versus 1999 and previous cars [many of the runs done on the same dyno on the same day, etc, etc] show a couple hp higher on the y2k and later cars... Perhaps your personal experience differs. The difference is not that significant, but, as long as we're saying one is better than the other, might as well have it correct.

anyone else ever seen this? Everything I have seen and read says otherwise. Mind you it's not a bid difference and in no way trying to start a p!ssing contest either. I have just seen and read the exact opposite. Weird....

As long as we beat the Vette's mod for mod who cares...

 

[Casey]

NEVER seen a dyno event where a '00 or newer has had more power than a pre '99 Gen II. Never! Stock cars of course.

 

[Russ M]

Jeff,

No one said your car was not capable of running like all the other vipers. These cars have more than enough power to run mid 11s stock with a great driver on factory tires.

I have been to many VCA dyno events, and have seen hundreds of vipers on the dyno. R&D dyno has all their pulls on the computer, and I have yet to see a creampuff pull more than a properly running 99 and older. We are talking stock here, with mods anything goes. But with equal mods the 99 and older will make much more power if you dont change internal parts.

 

[Inferno]

Jeff,

No one said your car was not capable of running like all the other vipers. These cars have more than enough power to run mid 11s stock with a great driver on factory tires.

I have been to many VCA dyno events, and have seen hundreds of vipers on the dyno. R&D dyno has all their pulls on the computer, and I have yet to see a creampuff pull more than a properly running 99 and older. We are talking stock here, with mods anything goes. But with equal mods the 99 and older will make much more power if you dont change internal parts.

I have heard this silly crap over and over again. I have one question for you, why is the fastest stock 1/4 mile time done with a so called "creampuff". Cast pistons are better performing and lighter, that's why most high performance cars use them. Yes, the forged ones can handle more boost. The power lost in the cam swap after 99 was made up with a better exhaust system. Pre 99 and older respond better to exhaust mods because 00 and up already have a better exhaust system. The only advantage older gts's have is the ability to handle more forced induction. It costs a grand to put forged pistons in, big deal. Like someone said, all gts's are awesome. If you want a lumpy, rough idle, and you want to make 1000hp, go with an old one. If you want a smoother more refined engine that can only make 700hp, get a newer one. You might want to get a 01 or 02 for the abs. As for the dyno #'s, it doesn't matter, every gts is different, some put down more hp than others, but it means nothing. A 500hp 525tourque srt-10 gets 0.1s advantage in the 1/4m, think about it.

 

[Jeff-00-ACR]

Jeff,

No one said your car was not capable of running like all the other vipers. These cars have more than enough power to run mid 11s stock with a great driver on factory tires.

I have been to many VCA dyno events, and have seen hundreds of vipers on the dyno. R&D dyno has all their pulls on the computer, and I have yet to see a creampuff pull more than a properly running 99 and older. We are talking stock here, with mods anything goes. But with equal mods the 99 and older will make much more power if you dont change internal parts.

Russ,

You seem to have missed my point. I'm giving a real life example of the car in action. I'd rather turn a good 1/4 time, then a good dyno run anyday. Bring your stock pre-00 to the track and let's roll.

I also think the term "creampuff" is a derogatory term. Aren't all Vipers welcomed here without getting talked down to. How about being a little more mature or at least save your hating for the Vettes.

 

[Casey]

Actually not. The dyno runs I've seen of stock 2000-2002 versus 1999 and previous cars [many of the runs done on the same dyno on the same day, etc, etc] show a couple hp higher on the y2k and later cars... Perhaps your personal experience differs. The difference is not that significant, but, as long as we're saying one is better than the other, might as well have it correct.

anyone else ever seen this? Everything I have seen and read says otherwise. Mind you it's not a bid difference and in no way trying to start a p!ssing contest either. I have just seen and read the exact opposite. Weird....

As long as we beat the Vette's mod for mod who cares...

Never seen that before. I have seen many 2000+ Gen IIs pull under 400rwhp on the dyno. And have NEVER seen one pull more than a pre 2000, stock vs stock.

It gets even uglier as you start with the normal mods-exhaust, filter, tubes, etc-- as 2000+ cars tend to fall way behind.

I am sure there are a Couple, maybe even a few creampuffs that can hand with the Big Dogs(96-99), but NOT many!


And as far as beating the Vettes, well, there's not much to that!

 

[STUGOTS]

from my VERY limited expirence with viper on the dyno from waht I have seen pre 99's put down slighty more power stock and react slightly better to most mods (EXcluding exhaust) but I may be wrong, besides EVERY car is diffrent I mean my numbers on my car are not too common (only a hand full of people on here actually) for the mods I have.

In any case there is NO shame in ANY year viper.

1 thing I do have to say is I agree with Jeff on the fact that I think creampuff is kind of derogatory to the post 99 snakes it makes them sound kind of soft and believe me there is nothing soft about ANY 450hp V10

 

[Casey]

I agree the "creampuff" term can come across as negative. It's kind of catchy though too.

Everyone here knows there are only slight difference in various years. And all these Vipers are basically the same bad A$$ machines!

 

[Russ M]

Inferno,

First of all if you want to quote fastest magazine tested times that would be an RT/10 NOT gts. Please stop refering to vipers as GTS's only, since they are the uglier of the 2 and I prefer my cars top less.

The faststest stock 1/4 mile time for a gen 2 was with a 98 if you must know 11.59 Mike from these forums.

I dont know why you are having such a hard time believing this. Just go to a viper day dyno and find out for your self.

SRT's are not any faster than gen 2's in the 1/4 mile because of traction limitations. They make about 30 hp/tq more at the wheels, but they just cant get it down to the ground.

 

[Inferno]

Inferno,

First of all if you want to quote fastest magazine tested times that would be an RT/10 NOT gts. Please stop refering to vipers as GTS's only, since they are the uglier of the 2 and I prefer my cars top less.

The faststest stock 1/4 mile time for a gen 2 was with a 98 if you must know 11.59 Mike from these forums.

I dont know why you are having such a hard time believing this. Just go to a viper day dyno and find out for your self.

SRT's are not any faster than gen 2's in the 1/4 mile because of traction limitations. They make about 30 hp/tq more at the wheels, but they just cant get it down to the ground.

Here is a nice quote from Bill Pemberton. This is all you need to know. You are right the fastest confirmed time was an rt10, however..you are also wrong, it was a "creampuff". Why would you call a gts ugly?
"New technology, less reciprocating mass, and a smoother running engine. Everyone seems to forget the fastest stock time with a Viper was an RT-10 Creampuff , at Englishtown. If you went to the Plant in 2000, they discussed the power increase ( obviously never shown on paper ) with the new motor, and this seemed to bear fruit with those of us running Viper Days. The years have caused folks to wax poetic on what is good or better for Snakes, but many forgot the rumors throughout 99 that the car was the heaviest ever made, and the PCM was changed and power was down. The Creampuff perception is just that, and though many of us liked the lumpy cams ( the severe petrolheads amongst the owners ) , there were quite a few complaints from others --- since neutral gear rattle and other issues popped up from this situation. The move by DC was seen as a way to lighten some internal components, alleviate some owner complaints, and go with new technology. I seriously doubt anyone questioned why Porsche went in that direction, yet it does give us all something to discuss over and over at Viper Functions."

 

[orlandov10]

96-99 GTS are the best models IMHO, as for $1000.00 to swap pistons "big deal" Its much more than that, I just sold my performance shop + dynojet center and still have the most current version of Alldata on my computer, Alldata gives us shop owners labor times for specific jobs, the job in question calls out for 32.5 hours to "just swap pistons" add to that figure the cost of pistons and rings $1100, engine overhaul gasket kit $300, coolant, oil, Freon, and costs to R+R the shortblock 32.5 hours $3000.00 or so labor. This simple job just cost you over $5,000.00 and you have to hope the guy who just dissasembled you motor put every bolt back in its proper place and torqued everything to the correct specs.ANd what about the post work drama? what if your motor starts knocking or something goes terribly wrong because the mechanic screwed something up? The shop would just say your car is modified and not under warranty due to abuse, its very possible you will have a few scratches under the hood too after all this work is complete. No thanks. I just bought my 97 GTS with 5,000 miles, I made the right move IMO. As for the RT10 being prettier than the GTS, I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder.. After all the threads I've read it seems nearly all Viper owners who switch models upgrade from the RT/10 to the GTS not the other way around. No comparison on looks IMO.

 

[LETHAL GTS]

RT's are for those who like big butts!

 

[Casey]

RT's are for those who like big butts!

Don't you mean skinny, flat butts, with NO curve to them!









I am totally kidding my RT/10 friends! It just came out!

 

[pattymelt3605]

Post them pics up of your car!

 

[Inferno]

96-99 GTS are the best models IMHO, as for $1000.00 to swap pistons "big deal" Its much more than that, I just sold my performance shop + dynojet center and still have the most current version of Alldata on my computer, Alldata gives us shop owners labor times for specific jobs, the job in question calls out for 32.5 hours to "just swap pistons" add to that figure the cost of pistons and rings $1100, engine overhaul gasket kit $300, coolant, oil, Freon, and costs to R+R the shortblock 32.5 hours $3000.00 or so labor. This simple job just cost you over $5,000.00 and you have to hope the guy who just dissasembled you motor put every bolt back in its proper place and torqued everything to the correct specs.ANd what about the post work drama? what if your motor starts knocking or something goes terribly wrong because the mechanic screwed something up? The shop would just say your car is modified and not under warranty due to abuse, its very possible you will have a few scratches under the hood too after all this work is complete. No thanks. I just bought my 97 GTS with 5,000 miles, I made the right move IMO. As for the RT10 being prettier than the GTS, I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder.. After all the threads I've read it seems nearly all Viper owners who switch models upgrade from the RT/10 to the GTS not the other way around. No comparison on looks IMO.

I know a mechainic that would do it much cheaper, and you have to consider a person taking the motor apart would do all the work at the same time,(cam, heads, bigger bore)etc... Taking apart your engine is a scary proposition, you need to trust your guy, or do it yourself. I would never swap the pistons, 700-800hp is enough for me. You missed the main point, a lighter, smoother, more powerfull running engine is in a 00-02. You did make the right move, you bought a viper.

 

[orlandov10]

Post them pics up of your car!

My car? Its actually not here yet, should arrive in Orlando sometime Sunday, I'll get pics up of it. I'm buying it with upgraded exhaust and intake, maybe even headers and cam too, I have to verify that though.

ACR - Great 1/4 mile run, do you have any tips on launching a Viper? I am used to 7000rpm cluch drops with the Supra, my best time at the track was 11.2 @ 125 with 470RWHP.. automatic so it was easy.

 

[Russ M]

Didnt say the GTS was ugly I said out of the two it was uglier.

You seem to be stuck on theory when 99% of us know fact, that 2000+ vipers made less power.

Personaly I dont care which one made more power, but facts are facts that many dyno pulls cant be wrong.

To the guy that said most viper owners upgrade to GTS's. That would be a down grade unless you plan on tracking the car and need the roof.

Many Gen 1 RT owners get the gen 2 gts, because they owned RT's for a long time, not many go from a gen 2 rt to a gen 2 gts.

And besides I love both, but when people refer to vipers as GTS's and GTS did this and GTS did that it gets under my skin. The days of the GTS being faster than the rt ended in 98 lets get over it.

 

[Jeff-00-ACR]

ACR - Great 1/4 mile run, do you have any tips on launching a Viper? I am used to 7000rpm cluch drops with the Supra, my best time at the track was 11.2 @ 125 with 470RWHP.. automatic so it was easy.

You don't want to do a 7000rpm launch with the Viper. Watch the in-car video and you will see I launched about 1500rpm and all you heard was a tiny little bit of wheel chirp. That means I was right on the edge of traction. Now it would be very different with some stickies...