Automatics vs. Traction Control

[Shelby3]

I have an honest question about drag racing and I'm not trying to stir up any shiite.

It is mostly accepted that running Vipers with automatics against six speeds in a drag race should not be in the same class because one racer is manually shifting the gears and the other has the transmission doing it for them. I understand the logic there.

What I don't understand is the logic that allows a Viper with traction control (where the computer is basically modulating the power for the driver) to be considered in the same class with Vipers where the driver is having to modulate the power with his right foot.

Can someone splain the logic for me here, Lucy?

Thanks

 

[SVS Turbo]

Shelby3,

Mechanical vs. Electronic control is a debate that is resonating across sanctioning bodies. Obviously a car equipped with unemotional precise computer controls that keep traction on the absolute edge or boost at the optimum level will outperform a non electronically assisted vehicle.

A 6 speed with, will beat a 6 speed without. It's almost like the "easy button" commercial.

All people that I have ever spoke to about this state that the traction controlled vehicle should be either disallowed or be in a different class. Have fun trying to regulate it though.

PRI was full of cost effective electronics hitting the streets. Eventually everyone will have to play catch-up.

 

[Rocket65C]

All people that I have ever spoke to about this state that the traction controlled vehicle should be either disallowed or be in a different class. <font color="red"> Have fun trying to regulate it though.</font>

Excellent point. With on board ECUs, wouldn't it be IMPOSSIBLE to know if someone was using traction control? And then, what about the degree? Maybe you program in to let the rearend break loose a little before the traction control kicks in, so people would think you didn't have it.

 

[2MANYTOYS]

Shelby3,

Mechanical vs. Electronic control is a debate that is resonating across sanctioning bodies. Obviously a car equipped with unemotional precise computer controls that keep traction on the absolute edge or boost at the optimum level will outperform a non electronically assisted vehicle.

A 6 speed with, will beat a 6 speed without. It's almost like the "easy button" commercial.

All people that I have ever spoke to about this state that the traction controlled vehicle should be either disallowed or be in a different class. Have fun trying to regulate it though.

PRI was full of cost effective electronics hitting the streets. Eventually everyone will have to play catch-up.

Good reply SVS! Makes sense to me. Don't most sanctioning bodies dis-allow the use of these in competition? I know Nascar does, what about NHRA etc.... The guy that developed the system that several Nascar drivers got caught with lives a few miles from my house. They really have some tricked out ways to hide those things. I bet he design something for my Viper.

Shelby3 with all that power you have you may need this.

 

[Shelby3]

There must be someone out there who can explain the prevailing attitude regarding traction control cars and the V-10 Nationals. If you think they should be in the same class with other six speeds without it, I'm interested in your logic. I'm trying to configure a car to compete and would like to know where this issue is going. Anyone?

 

[Simms]

Are there even enough vipers right NOW with traction control to create another class at the V-10's?

 

[Shelby3]

Are there even enough vipers right NOW with traction control to create another class at the V-10's?

I don't believe there are now, although more are likely to appear. I also don't think that cars without traction control can compete (all other things being equal) with cars that are using it. That being said, I guess my point is that if both configurations are going to be allowed in the same classes, you would have to have traction control to be competitive.

 

[Simms]

Are there even enough vipers right NOW with traction control to create another class at the V-10's?

I don't believe there are now, although more are likely to appear. I also don't think that cars without traction control can compete (all other things being equal) with cars that are using it. That being said, I guess my point is that if both configurations are going to be allowed in the same classes, you would have to have traction control to be competitive.

I agree, but unfortunately I don't see classes changing yet. Hopefully they will when the number of traction controlled cars increases.
As of now, I don't even know what races will definitely be held for the series next year.

 

[CHAD]

Traction control is banned in almost every form of racing.

With the AEM, it is easy to see if traction control is enabled. Little difficult to check everyones' tune but possible. I suppose a stand alone system would be almost impossible to detect.

I'm not sure which would be more beneficial, an automatic or traction control. A great driver narrows the gap on both and a poor driver can look real good with both. Kevin from Underground can flat out drive. I'm not sure he would pick up much with an auto and traction control. I on the other hand....

If I was David, I would put my car in exhibition so that everyone can watch it go and participants can have fun again.

If you think the last race was brutal, just you wait until TX.

 

[Shelby3]

Traction control is banned in almost every form of racing.

With the AEM, it is easy to see if traction control is enabled. Little difficult to check everyones' tune but possible. I suppose a stand alone system would be almost impossible to detect.

I'm not sure which would be more beneficial, an automatic or traction control. A great driver narrows the gap on both and a poor driver can look real good with both. Kevin from Underground can flat out drive. I'm not sure he would pick up much with an auto and traction control. I on the other hand....

If I was David, I would put my car in exhibition so that everyone can watch it go and participants can have fun again.

If you think the last race was brutal, just you wait until TX.

That's a pretty forthright response. It would be interesting to see what your car would do without traction control or what the Boggs TT or Anderson blower car would do with it. It has intrigued me from the start as to just how much of your advantage is traction control. Assume for this fantasy testing that the drivers were the same. What do you think Fudge would run if he had 1000 RWHP?

 

[CHAD]

What would my car run without traction control? I'll have to try sometime (once the cage is done).

What would David's TT run with it? Still slow. Don't forget SW drives that thing.

What would Brian's car run with traction control? Who cares. I'm still waiting to see him make a pass.

Fudge's car would run sixes with Heffners Performance supplying the power.

 

[CHAD]

BTW, this is fun. There hasn't been any race posts in forever :thumb:

 

[Shelby3]

What would my car run without traction control? I'll have to try sometime (once the cage is done).

GOOD, DO THAT AND POST THE RESULTS

What would David's TT run with it? Still slow. Don't forget SW drives that thing.

FROM WHAT I SAW IN SHREVEPORT I THINK IT WOULD RUN IN THE 8'S

What would Brian's car run with traction control? Who cares. I'm still waiting to see him make a pass.

FROM WHAT I SAW IN SHREVEPORT I THINK IT WOULD RUN IN THE 8'S

Fudge's car would run sixes with Heffners Performance supplying the power.

WITH 1000 RWHP FROM ANY TUNER THIS CAR WOULD BE EASY 8'S WITH A BAD DRIVER

 

[Jason Heffner]

You do realize that the only thing traction control does is reduce power, right? So what part of reducing power would make Boggs' car pick up the 18 mph necessary to run like Chad's? Boggs' car also has an AEM EMS as does Brian Anderson's car now, as does JKRACER's car, as do several other cars in that class. That being said, maybe others should get to figuring it out.

 

[2MANYTOYS]

You do realize that the only thing traction control does is reduce power, right? So what part of reducing power would make Boggs' car pick up the 18 mph necessary to run like Chad's? Boggs' car also has an AEM EMS as does Brian Anderson's car now, as does JKRACER's car, as do several other cars in that class. That being said, maybe others should get to figuring it out.

I don't have AEM on yet!

 

[CHAD]

Shelby, there has been 1000 rwhp cars around for quite some time from a number of tuners but no one has even gotten close to smelling the eights, until the BIG HEFFNER TT (except for the [******] car with glide, juice, CF, etc).

Don't down play what has been accomplished here. A non-driving nobody jumped in his own car that is infinitely faster than anything he has ever driven and ran 9.0 on pass 2 and an 8 on pass 5! Hell, if they made big enough diapers, Brian could run an 8 in my car!

 

[GARY J]

Jason beat me to it. Traction control will not help the MPH. It should be pretty clear to anyone who knows anything about drag racing, that Chad's "secret" isn't traction control. I would guess it has something to do with the 500+ hp advantage.

 

[Shelby3]

You do realize that the only thing traction control does is reduce power, right? So what part of reducing power would make Boggs' car pick up the 18 mph necessary to run like Chad's? Boggs' car also has an AEM EMS as does Brian Anderson's car now, as does JKRACER's car, as do several other cars in that class. That being said, maybe others should get to figuring it out.

Yea, I know what traction control does and I don't think it's the only factor in Chad's car putting the numbers down that he has to date. I'm merely interested in quantifying the impact of traction control. I saw several cars in Shreveport that looked like they would benefit hugely from getting the power to the ground. I still haven't heard anyone supply logic that shows why TC should run in the same class as cars without it. Run Chad's car without TC and we would all be able see how much faster it is than the other unlimited cars. I think it's faster, just would like a direct comparison.

 

[CHAD]

Here's a little secret. One of the runs in Bradenton did not have traction control enabled.

Discuss.

 

[CHAD]

Here's another tidbit.

Faster describes trap speed.

Quicker describes ET.

Traction control only hurts trap speed but can significantly affect ET.

My car put 17 mph on the next closest car at Bradenton. Can you imagine what that would look like from a roll? That would be like the next closest car, Roof's TT at 151, racing a bolt on Roe car that runs 134! It would not be pretty. And if traction control wasn't pulling power, my car would REALLY mph.

The reason I listed Roof's 151 vs Brian's is that with his drag race only ice water intercooler, he would be much less effective on the street. Or does Roof have a drag race water to air intercooler too. I don't remember.

 

[Shelby3]

What would my car run without traction control? I'll have to try sometime (once the cage is done).

Here's a little secret. One of the runs in Bradenton did not have traction control enabled.

Discuss.

 

[CHAD]

I mean try on purpose!

 

[Shelby3]

I mean try on purpose!

So, what did you accidently run?

 

[2MANYTOYS]

Shelby, there has been 1000 rwhp cars around for quite some time from a number of tuners but no one has even gotten close to smelling the eights, until the BIG HEFFNER TT (except for the [******] car with glide, juice, CF, etc).

Don't down play what has been accomplished here. A non-driving nobody jumped in his own car that is infinitely faster than anything he has ever driven and ran 9.0 on pass 2 and an 8 on pass 5! Hell, if they made big enough diapers, Brian could run an 8 in my car!

You think? Maybe you could loan me one. Make sure it's got traction control in it. I'd hate for anything to get out

Oh yea there has been 1000 hp cars around for a while, but none of them were using traction control either. I do believe their is a car that is smelling the 8's even without the traction control and a hell of a lot less invested. *****!!!!!!

 

[2MANYTOYS]

Jason beat me to it. Traction control will not help the MPH. It should be pretty clear to anyone who knows anything about drag racing, that Chad's "secret" isn't traction control. I would guess it has something to do with the 500+ hp advantage.

I don't think Shelby is asking about mph. He is asking about traction vs. non-traction comparisons.

 

[CHAD]

Brian, wrong forum to discuss performance per dollar. Try mustang dot com.

As for a car without traction control that can smell the 8's, who is it? They must be downwind.

Chad

PS: You're not getting huffy over there are you? You come after me enough so enjoy.

 

[Shelby3]

Jason beat me to it. Traction control will not help the MPH. It should be pretty clear to anyone who knows anything about drag racing, that Chad's "secret" isn't traction control. I would guess it has something to do with the 500+ hp advantage.

I don't think Shelby is asking about mph. He is asking about traction vs. non-traction comparisons.

You are correct sir. Just trying to measure the impact of TC. Chad's car obviously makes big power, there's no attempt to denigrate any accomplishments by asking about traction control. Look at it this way, this thread has morphed into Chad's favorite subject...............













THE CHAD

 

[2MANYTOYS]

Brian, wrong forum to discuss performance per dollar. Try mustang dot com.

As for a car without traction control that can smell the 8's, who is it? They must be downwind.

Chad

PS: You're not getting huffy over there are you? You come after me enough so enjoy.

You know who it is! I don't "come after you" No I'm not huffy. I've got much thicker skin than that. It would be interesting though to see what you could run driving my car.

 

[2MANYTOYS]

Jason beat me to it. Traction control will not help the MPH. It should be pretty clear to anyone who knows anything about drag racing, that Chad's "secret" isn't traction control. I would guess it has something to do with the 500+ hp advantage.

I don't think Shelby is asking about mph. He is asking about traction vs. non-traction comparisons.

You are correct sir. Just trying to measure the impact of TC. Chad's car obviously makes big power, there's no attempt to denigrate any accomplishments by asking about traction control. Look at it this way, this thread has morphed into Chad's favorite subject...............













THE CHAD

 

[CHAD]

Hey, I know that guy.

I tell you what, Brian. And this is not a dig. You prove that you can handle a big power car and run some good, consistent numbers and we can switch cars for a couple passes. You can pick if the traction control is on or off. I've got no problem with that.