Considering a Supercharger for your Gen 2?

[Sweet Ride]

I currently have a Paxton blower that was installed by the second owner. (I am #4). While hp and torque are really the main reasons to buy a supercharger, you may want to consider the following before purchasing:

Ease of installation: The Paxton set up doesn’t seem that bad as long as you have plenty of time to do it right. There are a lot of coolant hoses run through the vehicle for the intercooler and it is all a really tight fit. If you don’t install it yourself, have someone do it that has some experience installing superchargers. The Dodge dealer that installed the supercharger on this car did a slipshot job at it. It was a terrible install and I am still working out some of the bugs. A number of the hoses were rubbing against other pieces and have almost rubbed through. The intercooler water pump wiring was pinched between the frame and an a/c line, melted, and shorted to ground. The oil drain tube was pinched between the frame and the steering rack. The fuel pumps are mounted right by the starter and transmission so they can get nice and warm. Piss poor install…

Vehicle repairs: The Paxton really loses me here. I just had to replace my timing cover gasket and the supercharger easily doubled the time of the job. Wanna replace your drive belt? Pull the supercharger off to do it. Need to replace your P/S pump? Pull the supercharger off to do it. Need to replace the supercharger belt? Pull the supercharger off to do it. Water pump? You guessed it, pull the supercharger off to do it. I do all my own work, so it doesn’t bother me as much as if I had to pay someone to do it. If you send your car to someone to work on it though, be prepared to pay extra labor time to get the supercharger out of the way for almost any engine work.

Power: The power from the Paxton is awesome, but it doesn’t really hit the power band until about 3500 RPM. It’s like turbo lag, but it’s more progressive. I would prefer to hit my torque peak about 1000 RPM sooner.

Other parts: Considering the expense of a Paxton supercharger for the Viper, you might think that’s all you need to get it going. You’ll get going for sure, but you will start to break other things along the way. With all the added power, there are a number of other things you should upgrade at the same time, or shortly after:
Half shafts ($800-$1000+)
Fuel system ($800-$1000+)
A proper computer and dyno tune ($400-$1000+)
Gears ($300-$800+)
Stickier tires ($600+)
Cooling system ($800-$1000+)
Full exhaust ($1200-$3000+)
Poly motor and trans mounts ($400-$600+)
Brakes (if you race) ($1000-$3500+)
Throw all that in there and your $8000-9000 supercharger set up is now in the $20K+ range to do it right. Sure, you can get by just buying the supercharger set up, but you probably wanted to upgrade all that other stuff anyway

If you live close to a good tuner (DC, DLM, Roe, et al.) you will likely have a far better experience.

I’m sure I’m forgetting some stuff here, but I bet others will chime in with their experiences.

Shop around and ask questions before you get a supercharger. If I was doing it over again with this car, I would go Roe. Just my $.02…

 

[Dads Toy]

nice information. I would be curious as to what members say about the superchargers. I am sure they get the down low extra boost that you may want, but do they have MORE traction issues with all of that down low power?

 

[eucharistos]

thanks for the very informative real life experience post

Merry Christmas

 

[SquadX]

Wow, you really have to remove the supercharger to do those little things. I wonder if its the same for the Roe. Making me think twice now about a Supercharger and just doing some ported stryker heads by Greg Good.

 

[RTTTTed]

Not so many problems with a Roe supercharger. FULL power by 2,000rpm and then the power stays on until 5200rpm or you remove your foot.

6 hrs for instal instead of 16. The Roe is ontop of the engine so it's out of the way of everything. The Roe comes with a tuning computer that you can also purchase and add to the Paxton (Comes as part of the Roe system. No extra fuel pump needed until power goes way up. 8# boost and an MSD fuel pump voltage booster is a good idea. Roe works with stock front engine crossmember in place (unlike the Paxton).

No gear change advantage with a Roe (cars actually slow down with lower gears). Half-shafts are definitely a needed upgrade for the Roe because of all the torque.

Ted

 

[Dads Toy]

so how do you get traction with all of that extra low end torque? I raced a Viper that supposedly had around 800hp a couple of years ago with my 508 hp Trans Am in the 1/4 mile at a track. I beat him to the end of the track, he was coming on like a bat out of hell but I beat him down the track because he could not get any traction. he smoked the tires probably halfway down the 1/4.

 

[plumcrazy]

you dont need to take the SC off to do a belt swap.

and this is a good thread with good info in it

 

[Sweet Ride]

you dont need to take the SC off to do a belt swap.

and this is a good thread with good info in it

My bad. I was on a rant at that point due to my experiences this past weekend... It looks like you have to at least loosen it up and tilt it out of the way to get the belt out.

I think the Roe setup is superior to the Paxton. I'll keep mine like it is for now but if the right deal ever pops up, I'm switching to a Roe.

 

[Sweet Ride]

Wow, you really have to remove the supercharger to do those little things. I wonder if its the same for the Roe. Making me think twice now about a Supercharger and just doing some ported stryker heads by Greg Good.

If you are thinking about a Supercharger you should still consider it. Just consider all the stuff that you have to do with it. If you structure everything properly, you should be ok.

I say get the heads and do the supercharger!!!

 

[Red Snake]

I love the power of the Roe in the lower rpms. I am running 10 pounds of boost on mine with w/m. Over 700 pound feet at the wheels, most of it by 2,000 rpms.





Go Roe if you want to really feel it down low.

 

[RTTTTed]

so how do you get traction with all of that extra low end torque? I raced a Viper that supposedly had around 800hp a couple of years ago with my 508 hp Trans Am in the 1/4 mile at a track. I beat him to the end of the track, he was coming on like a bat out of hell but I beat him down the track because he could not get any traction. he smoked the tires probably halfway down the 1/4.

Traction on street tires is difficult to obtain, although it's not so bad with PS2s.
With PS1s on my car it turned 10.5@139mph. Drag radials are better for traction. Slicks are good for at least a second in the higher powered Vipers.

Haha, you're either addicted to power - or yah ain't!

Ted

 

[Steve 00RT/10]

Not so many problems with a Roe supercharger. FULL power by 2,000rpm and then the power stays on until 5200rpm or you remove your foot.

6 hrs for instal instead of 16. The Roe is ontop of the engine so it's out of the way of everything. The Roe comes with a tuning computer that you can also purchase and add to the Paxton (Comes as part of the Roe system. No extra fuel pump needed until power goes way up. 8# boost and an MSD fuel pump voltage booster is a good idea. Roe works with stock front engine crossmember in place (unlike the Paxton).

No gear change advantage with a Roe (cars actually slow down with lower gears). Half-shafts are definitely a needed upgrade for the Roe because of all the torque.

Ted

Ted,

Don't get me wrong, I'm a Roe guy all the way... 2 of them. But my experience is a little different from yours. As a DIY kit, unless your 2nd name is 'mechanic', you will not put this on in 6 hours total time....if for no other reason than being extremely careful. The lower temp t-stat alone took a couple hours to scrape everyhting clean. The crank pinning took me 2-3 hours. (took a while to find the sweet spot to get the drill in there) The new injector connectors took an hour or two. The VEC and WB set up took up took several hours to get it wired, dressed up nice, and routed properly.

Like anything, time could easily be reduced, once you're tooled up properly and do several of them......but 6 hours total time is in the expert category...like a Tator or Roe himself.

IMO a half shaft upgrade is not really necessary with stock tires. The tires are the shear pin. I spin them every time the car comes out of the garage for a ride. Stock half shafts. 83K miles on the car. 40K SC miles between the two cars. If drag racing is the main purpose for the car, then half shafts would be in order. Repeated violent shifts to 2nd with a stock car could probably snap a shaft as well.

We have 3.45s and a light flywheel in the RT/10. I don't drag race, but up to 130 or so, I don't think it's slower. ....Getting into OD at 130 while a stock geared car is still pulling at a 1-1ratio may negate any gains to 150......after that it's all over for the stock geared car....power in each being equal.

Throw in exceptional customer service from Sean Roe and I wouldn't change a thing.

Steve

 

[RTTTTed]

Installin the Roe could take days if you stop or do other jobs while installing the sc. I was using "other peoples" numbers to compare installation times. The Paxton could take much longer than 16hrs as well. Last time I removed my sc it was because I was porting the heads and that took much longer.

With lower gears in my car 4th gear was needed before the end of the quarter mile so the car slowed down. Stock gears meant no extra shift so the car was faster.

I also have driven 32,000miles on two Roe sc's.

Ted

 

[ViperTony]

Ted,

Don't get me wrong, I'm a Roe guy all the way... 2 of them. But my experience is a little different from yours. As a DIY kit, unless your 2nd name is 'mechanic', you will not put this on in 6 hours total time....if for no other reason than being extremely careful. The lower temp t-stat alone took a couple hours to scrape everyhting clean. The crank pinning took me 2-3 hours. (took a while to find the sweet spot to get the drill in there) The new injector connectors took an hour or two. The VEC and WB set up took up took several hours to get it wired, dressed up nice, and routed properly.

Like anything, time could easily be reduced, once you're tooled up properly and do several of them......but 6 hours total time is in the expert category...like a Tator or Roe himself.

IMO a half shaft upgrade is not really necessary with stock tires. The tires are the shear pin. I spin them every time the car comes out of the garage for a ride. Stock half shafts. 83K miles on the car. 40K SC miles between the two cars. If drag racing is the main purpose for the car, then half shafts would be in order. Repeated violent shifts to 2nd with a stock car could probably snap a shaft as well.

We have 3.45s and a light flywheel in the RT/10. I don't drag race, but up to 130 or so, I don't think it's slower. ....Getting into OD at 130 while a stock geared car is still pulling at a 1-1ratio may negate any gains to 150......after that it's all over for the stock geared car....power in each being equal.

Throw in exceptional customer service from Sean Roe and I wouldn't change a thing.

Steve

In the land of Ted anything is possible. I also believe time moves slower in Canada. Hence, 6hr Canadian time equates to 16hrs U.S. time.

 

[Steve 00RT/10]

Installin the Roe could take days if you stop or do other jobs while installing the sc. I was using "other peoples" numbers to compare installation times. The Paxton could take much longer than 16hrs as well. Last time I removed my sc it was because I was porting the heads and that took much longer.

With lower gears in my car 4th gear was needed before the end of the quarter mile so the car slowed down. Stock gears meant no extra shift so the car was faster.

I also have driven 32,000miles on two Roe sc's.

Ted

Mine was done over about 8 days with extreme care -- no hurry at all (zero prior experience with such things), cleaning parts of the engine not exposed before, still had a day job then, and having to go out and buy some extra tools. I also built an extra bracket for FI cable harnassing. Start to on road logging was 30 hours (included some VEC orientation on the computer). After doing the job, I figured I could cut that time in half were I to do another right away.

I see the correlation you used: 6/16 with well versed people doing the work.

Don't you need 4th gear now to get to 139MPH? ...or did you mean 5th gear?
I thought stock GEN I & II Vipers had to get into 4th gear for optimal times?

Steve

 

[RTTTTed]

You're right Steve, need 4th through the quarter mile. Lower than stock gears need 5th.

Ted

 

[vipzilla]

so how do you get traction with all of that extra low end torque? I raced a Viper that supposedly had around 800hp a couple of years ago with my 508 hp Trans Am in the 1/4 mile at a track. I beat him to the end of the track, he was coming on like a bat out of hell but I beat him down the track because he could not get any traction. he smoked the tires probably halfway down the 1/4.

he didnt know how to drive

 

[2MANYTOYS]

I currently have a Paxton blower that was installed by the second owner. (I am #4). While hp and torque are really the main reasons to buy a supercharger, you may want to consider the following before purchasing:

Ease of installation: The Paxton set up doesn’t seem that bad as long as you have plenty of time to do it right. There are a lot of coolant hoses run through the vehicle for the intercooler and it is all a really tight fit. If you don’t install it yourself, have someone do it that has some experience installing superchargers. The Dodge dealer that installed the supercharger on this car did a slipshot job at it. It was a terrible install and I am still working out some of the bugs. A number of the hoses were rubbing against other pieces and have almost rubbed through. The intercooler water pump wiring was pinched between the frame and an a/c line, melted, and shorted to ground. The oil drain tube was pinched between the frame and the steering rack. The fuel pumps are mounted right by the starter and transmission so they can get nice and warm. Piss poor install…

Vehicle repairs: The Paxton really loses me here. I just had to replace my timing cover gasket and the supercharger easily doubled the time of the job. Wanna replace your drive belt? Pull the supercharger off to do it. Need to replace your P/S pump? Pull the supercharger off to do it. Need to replace the supercharger belt? Pull the supercharger off to do it. Water pump? You guessed it, pull the supercharger off to do it. I do all my own work, so it doesn’t bother me as much as if I had to pay someone to do it. If you send your car to someone to work on it though, be prepared to pay extra labor time to get the supercharger out of the way for almost any engine work.

Power: The power from the Paxton is awesome, but it doesn’t really hit the power band until about 3500 RPM. It’s like turbo lag, but it’s more progressive. I would prefer to hit my torque peak about 1000 RPM sooner.

Other parts: Considering the expense of a Paxton supercharger for the Viper, you might think that’s all you need to get it going. You’ll get going for sure, but you will start to break other things along the way. With all the added power, there are a number of other things you should upgrade at the same time, or shortly after:
Half shafts ($800-$1000+)
Fuel system ($800-$1000+)
A proper computer and dyno tune ($400-$1000+)
Gears ($300-$800+)
Stickier tires ($600+)
Cooling system ($800-$1000+)
Full exhaust ($1200-$3000+)
Poly motor and trans mounts ($400-$600+)
Brakes (if you race) ($1000-$3500+)
Throw all that in there and your $8000-9000 supercharger set up is now in the $20K+ range to do it right. Sure, you can get by just buying the supercharger set up, but you probably wanted to upgrade all that other stuff anyway

If you live close to a good tuner (DC, DLM, Roe, et al.) you will likely have a far better experience.

I’m sure I’m forgetting some stuff here, but I bet others will chime in with their experiences.

Shop around and ask questions before you get a supercharger. If I was doing it over again with this car, I would go Roe. Just my $.02…

Is your motor stock? I have had a full paxton built car and did not experience the lag you speak of. However, I had the best paxton tuner on the planet do the work (Underground Racing) my car still holds the s/c drag racing record I agree that if your going to do it, do it RIGHT the first time. A paxton built viper is a heck of a nice setup for the money. I've owned 2 roe cars as well and liked them to but neither would run with my paxton car.

 

[2MANYTOYS]

he didnt know how to drive

Your right!!! He didn't know how to drive.

 

[Sweet Ride]

Is your motor stock? I have had a full paxton built car and did not experience the lag you speak of. However, I had the best paxton tuner on the planet do the work (Underground Racing) my car still holds the s/c drag racing record I agree that if your going to do it, do it RIGHT the first time. A paxton built viper is a heck of a nice setup for the money. I've owned 2 roe cars as well and liked them to but neither would run with my paxton car.

I think a lot of my issues go back to the original installing dealer. I have two lag issues. The first one involves the supercharger. The original dyno sheets show the power doesn't come on until about 2800 RPM. Way too far up the rev range for my preferred tastes...

My second lag issue seems like more of a computer or tuning iussue. When the car is cold in the morning I get a lag or flat spot at about 2000-2500 RPM. It's strange, like the car is just running out of thrust. It does't hesitate or stumble, it just flat lines and then comes out of it.

Underground looks like they know what they are doing. They are a little far away from where I am though.

I plan to take the car to DC Performance one of these days for a dyno tune and PC reflash. Hopefully I can get this all sorted out this year. I'd really like to get out to the track and see what kind of times my rookie skill level can run.

 

[BOTTLEFED]

Sweetride, it sounds like you have a bad TPS

I think 2manytoys summed it up.
If you don't have a top Viper tuner that knows the Paxtons well, then the Roe is the way to go. Most of the guys that love the Paxtons are the ones that don't work on their own cars and could not install it themselves. Like Sweetride stated, the Paxtons are awesome... as long as you don't have to work on them yourself.

I do all the work on my car. The nearest Viper tuner is 1000s of miles away so I had to do it myself. I love the idea of the Paxton and it was my first choice, but the Roe is, plain and simple, the better DIY setup. Sean can totally back his product and has a good reason to assist the DIY guys; Paxton doesn't have that.

I respect the performance the Paxton guys are laying down, but I have even more respect for the guys like Tony and Steve that built and tuned their Roe setups to almost equal the pro tuned Paxtons.

 

[Sweet Ride]

Sweetride, it sounds like you have a bad TPS

Thanks for the tip. I was thinking it was the TPS, MAP, or IAT.

The generic scan tool I have didn't seem to show anything wrong with any of those sensors. However, by the seat of my pants I would have to respectfully disagree with said scan tool.

I plan to do some work on the car next weekend and will run through the appropriate sensor tests according to the service manual. Time to dust off the old DVOM...

 

[X-Metal]

Is your motor stock? I have had a full paxton built car and did not experience the lag you speak of. However, I had the best paxton tuner on the planet do the work (Underground Racing) my car still holds the s/c drag racing record I agree that if your going to do it, do it RIGHT the first time. A paxton built viper is a heck of a nice setup for the money. I've owned 2 roe cars as well and liked them to but neither would run with my paxton car.

good point, a paxton not only will make more power, but pull after pull, run after run, the paxton has an intercooler to keep the charge temps down, and the intercooler is easliy upgradeable for better performance.
lag on a Paxton???? your FMU was way off, and prob got pig rich. i will never understand how anyone can have a boosted engine with out an AF and Boost gauge, to know whats going on......that is no different than not running an oil pressure gauge.
EVERY paxton car i have done lays down 700rwhp and i get 685 out of the trucks.
a roe car, by the second pull is so heat soaked, it drops 50-70hp
the Roe is the prettiest, but its a basic power adder at its best. a paxton is basically a belt driven turbo. so far as a bolt on supercharger goes, there is no comparison IMO.
if you are worried about water pumps and front timing cover removal, you have a high mileage car, or a clunker

 

[Sweet Ride]

good point, a paxton not only will make more power, but pull after pull, run after run, the paxton has an intercooler to keep the charge temps down, and the intercooler is easliy upgradeable for better performance.
lag on a Paxton???? your FMU was way off, and prob got pig rich. i will never understand how anyone can have a boosted engine with out an AF and Boost gauge, to know whats going on......that is no different than not running an oil pressure gauge.
EVERY paxton car i have done lays down 700rwhp and i get 685 out of the trucks.
a roe car, by the second pull is so heat soaked, it drops 50-70hp
the Roe is the prettiest, but its a basic power adder at its best. a paxton is basically a belt driven turbo. so far as a bolt on supercharger goes, there is no comparison IMO.
if you are worried about water pumps and front timing cover removal, you have a high mileage car, or a clunker

What would you recommend as a proper FMU calibration for the Paxton? I doubt I am running rich, as my plugs show a lean burn pattern. I believe the car was calibrated to run on 93 octane, but I can only get 91 in this area.

Owner number 2 had the system installed and I don't think he really knew what he was getting into. The dealer that installed the system installed it as it came in the box (and did a piss poor job at it). Car has a boost gauge but no A/F meter. I have planned to install one in the near future. The car was originally dynoed at 589 rwhp shortly after the install. It seems extremely low to me.

My "high milage clunker" blew the timing cover gasket at 32K miles and I know of more that have blown them way before that.

 

[Red Snake]

...........a roe car, by the second pull is so heat soaked, it drops 50-70hp

That's what w/m is for.

 

[BOTTLEFED]

good point, a paxton not only will make more power, but pull after pull, run after run, the paxton has an intercooler to keep the charge temps down, and the intercooler is easliy upgradeable for better performance.
lag on a Paxton???? your FMU was way off, and prob got pig rich. i will never understand how anyone can have a boosted engine with out an AF and Boost gauge, to know whats going on......that is no different than not running an oil pressure gauge.
EVERY paxton car i have done lays down 700rwhp and i get 685 out of the trucks.
a roe car, by the second pull is so heat soaked, it drops 50-70hp
the Roe is the prettiest, but its a basic power adder at its best. a paxton is basically a belt driven turbo. so far as a bolt on supercharger goes, there is no comparison IMO.
if you are worried about water pumps and front timing cover removal, you have a high mileage car, or a clunker

My Roe put down 3 consecutive dyno pulls within 8hp of each other.
I would admit that after that it would start decreasing significantly unless you were on W/M injection.

I agree, a boost gauge and A/F meter are crucial to proper management.

And no, a car that needs routine maintenance and parts replaced after 10+ years is not a clunker, and as sweetride just mentioned, not necessarily a high mileage car either.

 

[X-Metal]

What would you recommend as a proper FMU calibration for the Paxton? I doubt I am running rich, as my plugs show a lean burn pattern. I believe the car was calibrated to run on 93 octane, but I can only get 91 in this area.

Owner number 2 had the system installed and I don't think he really knew what he was getting into. The dealer that installed the system installed it as it came in the box (and did a piss poor job at it). Car has a boost gauge but no A/F meter. I have planned to install one in the near future. The car was originally dynoed at 589 rwhp shortly after the install. It seems extremely low to me.

My "high milage clunker" blew the timing cover gasket at 32K miles and I know of more that have blown them way before that.

do you have any current dyno runs of the car? get an AF gauge, or an LM1 with data record, and we can go from there. i replied to your pm, send me your list and we can get you fixed

 

[X-Metal]

That's what w/m is for.

true, but what do you do when that run out? oops, its hot outside, i cant race you today i forgot to fill my water/****...
an intercooled system is far less to maintain, if at all......
not to mention there is the consumption of bearings and seals in your supercharger to consider when spraying water/****, and the oxidation in your supercharger housing
plus your supercharger is not a hydralic pump, you will wear the vanes out by spraying a liquid into it.

 

[Red Snake]

true, but what do you do when that run out? oops, its hot outside, i cant race you today i forgot to fill my water/****...
an intercooled system is far less to maintain, if at all......
not to mention there is the consumption of bearings and seals in your supercharger to consider when spraying water/****, and the oxidation in your supercharger housing
plus your supercharger is not a hydralic pump, you will wear the vanes out by spraying a liquid into it.

I have a 2 gallon tank. It's not rocket science to refill it once or twice a year. Even a caveman can do it. My tank has NEVER ran out.


And at only 1,000 to 1,500 miles per year, my supercharger is holding up remarkably well.

 

[1BADGTS]

good point, a paxton not only will make more power, but pull after pull, run after run, the paxton has an intercooler to keep the charge temps down, and the intercooler is easliy upgradeable for better performance.
lag on a Paxton???? your FMU was way off, and prob got pig rich. i will never understand how anyone can have a boosted engine with out an AF and Boost gauge, to know whats going on......that is no different than not running an oil pressure gauge.
EVERY paxton car i have done lays down 700rwhp and i get 685 out of the trucks.
a roe car, by the second pull is so heat soaked, it drops 50-70hp
the Roe is the prettiest, but its a basic power adder at its best. a paxton is basically a belt driven turbo. so far as a bolt on supercharger goes, there is no comparison IMO.
if you are worried about water pumps and front timing cover removal, you have a high mileage car, or a clunker

EXACTLY CORRECT.Last July my buddy on his third dyno pull lost 85 rwhp on his Rowe car (10 lb pulley ).Nick at Modern measured the air inlet temps (170 degrees ).This guy roadraces the car HARD so Nick IS HAND FABRICATING HIM AN INTERCOOLER .