Great track day with the Vettes. Still need 50rwhp. Ideas?

Gforce

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Had a great day at Portland International Raceway with a few of my Viper friends. James Retych (WA president), George Wirsch, Scotty Twyler and John Coleman all showed up.

The first session was a bit embarrassing for the viper crowd. 2 out of 3 spun off the track <oops>. James had a leak in his overflow that got on his right front tire and george over-cooked a corner. By the end of the day, we all had a respectful showing as we passed porches, vettes and a number of other brands.

Big thanks to those of you who helped me dial in my Motons. The car cornered like it was on rails. I eventually ended up in the front: +4 on the bump, +3 on the rebound, Rear: +3 on the bump, +4 on the rebound. The idea was to get the weight on the rear tires and keep it there. It worked great - most of the time. I did lose the rear once towards the end of the day but mostly thats because it was getting slick and I was driving the heck out of the car. It was a safe place to find the limits and I found them :)

Have to say that the most rewarding part of the day was catching everyone under braking. Not certain why that lights me up so much but it was fun. It took most of the morning for me to convince myself not to brake at the 400ft mark. I walked myself in by verbally counting of seconds past the point when I wanted to brake. I eventually cut 150 feet off my braking on the front and 100 feet off my braking on the back stretch!

The stock pads held all day long in 90 degree weather. Not certain if I can expect that to continue as my times improve but I was way impressed. Only a trace of fade at the end of the 20 minute sessions and by then, my brain was tired anyway so it worked out just fine.

The bad news is that I got passed by a couple of vettes (both Z06s). The most frustrating part of it was when they pulled away from me on the straights :( . There in lies the problem. One of these guys claimed to be "totally stock motor". He claims he races in a stock autocross series (solo?) and that he could not motify the motor. He had 315s up front and 335s in the rear, a penske suspension and a cat-back exhuast (at least thats all he mentioned). I actually cornered competitvely with him but he pulled away on both the front and back stretch.

So if I have 500 (now 510) HP and he has 405 (now 410?) how the heck could he walk away so easily - probably 2 car lengths each side and I was exiting as fast as him and outbraking him!

In any case, I decided I need about another 50rwhp. Motor is totally stock. K&Ns are installed, light weight flywheel and 3.55 gears.

Any thoughts for the most cost effective and efficient solution to add another 50rwhp :confused: ?

thanks -

j

p.s. - anyone know how I change my user name? Now that I no longer have my 99GTS, I think the handle is a bit old.
 

FLYNLO

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Had a great day at Portland International Raceway with a few of my Viper friends. James Retych (WA president), George Wirsch, Scotty Twyler and John Coleman all showed up.

The first session was a bit embarrassing for the viper crowd. 2 out of 3 spun off the track <oops>. James had a leak in his overflow that got on his right front tire and george over-cooked a corner. By the end of the day, we all had a respectful showing as we passed porches, vettes and a number of other brands.

Big thanks to those of you who helped me dial in my Motons. The car cornered like it was on rails. I eventually ended up in the front: +4 on the bump, +3 on the rebound, Rear: +3 on the bump, +4 on the rebound. The idea was to get the weight on the rear tires and keep it there. It worked great - most of the time. I did lose the rear once towards the end of the day but mostly thats because it was getting slick and I was driving the heck out of the car. It was a safe place to find the limits and I found them :)

Have to say that the most rewarding part of the day was catching everyone under braking. Not certain why that lights me up so much but it was fun. It took most of the morning for me to convince myself not to brake at the 400ft mark. I walked myself in by verbally counting of seconds past the point when I wanted to brake. I eventually cut 150 feet off my braking on the front and 100 feet off my braking on the back stretch!

The stock pads held all day long in 90 degree weather. Not certain if I can expect that to continue as my times improve but I was way impressed. Only a trace of fade at the end of the 20 minute sessions and by then, my brain was tired anyway so it worked out just fine.

The bad news is that I got passed by a couple of vettes (both Z06s). The most frustrating part of it was when they pulled away from me on the straights :( . There in lies the problem. One of these guys claimed to be "totally stock motor". He claims he races in a stock autocross series (solo?) and that he could not motify the motor. He had 315s up front and 335s in the rear, a penske suspension and a cat-back exhuast (at least thats all he mentioned). I actually cornered competitvely with him but he pulled away on both the front and back stretch.

So if I have 500 (now 510) HP and he has 405 (now 410?) how the heck could he walk away so easily - probably 2 car lengths each side and I was exiting as fast as him and outbraking him!

In any case, I decided I need about another 50rwhp. Motor is totally stock. K&Ns are installed, light weight flywheel and 3.55 gears.

Any thoughts for the most cost effective and efficient solution to add another 50rwhp :confused: ?

thanks -

j

p.s. - anyone know how I change my user name? Now that I no longer have my 99GTS, I think the handle is a bit old.

either a blower, or for a couple of pennies more...some head work with a mild cam.
 

Chuck 98 RT/10

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One of these guys claimed to be "totally stock motor". He claims he races in a stock autocross series (solo?) and that he could not motify the motor. He had 315s up front and 335s in the rear, a penske suspension and a cat-back exhuast (at least thats all he mentioned). I actually cornered competitvely with him but he pulled away on both the front and back stretch.

Pulling on the straights is HP. Everybody says their car is "stock."
 

Chuck B 98 GTS

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One of these guys claimed to be "totally stock motor". He claims he races in a stock autocross series (solo?) and that he could not motify the motor. He had 315s up front and 335s in the rear, a penske suspension and a cat-back exhuast (at least thats all he mentioned). I actually cornered competitvely with him but he pulled away on both the front and back stretch.

Pulling on the straights is HP. Everybody says their car is "stock."
Sad but true
 

Raheel

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So if I have 500 (now 510) HP and he has 405 (now 410?) how the heck could he walk away so easily - probably 2 car lengths each side and I was exiting as fast as him and outbraking him!

In any case, I decided I need about another 50rwhp. Motor is totally stock. K&Ns are installed, light weight flywheel and 3.55 gears.

Any thoughts for the most cost effective and efficient solution to add another 50rwhp :confused: ?

Your reference to the Vette seems to be a C5 Z06 with 405 HP - and to compete with it you are looking to get another 50 rwhp. To compete with the new "C6" Z06 with 505 HP, you'd probably need 150 rwhp given the 300 lb weight advantage that Z06 has.
 

Kai SRT10

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A stock Z06 should not be pulling away from you on the straights. I go head to head against Vettes all the time. My Viper can out accelerate a stock Z06 on a straight.

So . . . The Z06 is likely not stock, or, he was carrying significantly more speed through the corner leading into the straight. I am guessing that his engine was modded a bit more than he let on.

If you really want to go faster on the track, don't bother with the power mods. Get a set of SSR wheels and Michelin Pilot Sport Cup tires. A Quaife differential will also help you in getting the power down sooner coming out of the corners. These things will decrease your lap times more than adding 50 horsepower, and will also be less expensive.
 

MannyC

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Sounds to me like you might have thought you were coming out of the corners at the same speed, but weren't. If his car is coming out of the corner just 5 mph faster than you and hits the apex better and can put more of the power down sooner than you can, he's going to walk you, even with less power (been there, done that.) It's like Drag racing -- if you bog for just 1 second, you can have 200 HP more than the other guy and it's going to take you the whole 1/4 mile straight just to catch up, if you can.

He might have also lightened the car. My track Viper is stock (in terms of motor) but the car has a great suspension setup, is 300 pounds lighter, etc., and the car can run circles around my other Vipers at the track.

-Manny
 

Chuck 98 RT/10

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I thought the same thing Manny, but took him for his word that he was hanging with the Z through the turns.

I agree with Kia on all counts. The last thing I want to do is open up that bullet-proof motor.
 

bmoney

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One of these guys claimed to be "totally stock motor". He claims he races in a stock autocross series (solo?) and that he could not motify the motor. He had 315s up front and 335s in the rear, a penske suspension and a cat-back exhuast (at least thats all he mentioned).

I am pretty sure that he was straight up lying. You can't run those tires and be in the "stock" (SS) class. You would at least have to be in the "tire" class, which says he is probably lying about the engine too.

As a side note, I had a Z06 before my SRT10, and my Viper is WAY faster. My best friend still has a Z06 (and he knows how to drive), and I pull him pretty hard with ease.
 

Bill Pemberton Woodhouse

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As per my PM to you, it pretty much is stating the same as Manny has. I have about 6,000 miles on a local track, and I pass cars going down the straight that have alot more hp than I do ( Spec Miata here, no Snake ). The advantage I have is two fold, in that I have a ton of seat time, and I exit the last corner before the straight at 5-7 mph faster than many drivers. It is a trick corner, but experience and chassis set-up is what makes me faster, not hp. Let us know a bit more about your level of experience, etc. and Manny had some very good points in his remark to you.

Hang in there, sounds like you are having a blast!
 
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Gforce

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Kai - I have the VRL forgeline wheels and am running michelin slicks off Don Roberts comp coupe so unfortunately, I think I have squeaked a much as I can from the wheels/tires thing.

Superbar - I wondered if he had lightened the car - which I suspected. If he runs in Solo autocross, I am not certain what the rules are. In any case, I was on his tail coming onto the stretches so I think our exit speeds were pretty close.

Bill - In terms of track time, I have been doing PIR and SIR for the past 12 years and probably have 100 track days under my belt. The other driver has been doing it about as long. Last year I could beat him in my 99 but I suspect he did something since then. BTW - turn 7 at PIR is also a trick corner and I have the trick down. Unfortunatley, so does Lee (the guy in the Corvette). I was out cornering and out breaking him all day long but it was not enough to make up for the lost time on the straights.

Curious - how much advantage would there be in having my stock heads ported and polished? Not certain I want to go for the whole new cam thing but I may need to.

other thoughts?

j
 
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Gforce

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chuck - I agree 100% with not wanting to open up the bullet proof motor.

I did put roller rockers in my 99 but I did it in the first 3 months and after that, the motor never got opened. It still runs like a champ.

Thats where I was wondering about something like porting and polishing the heads. Just don't have a feel for how much that costs or what benefits I get back.

I am also thinking about something about an after market computer that may help.

Are there other tricks for more HP that don't require a $10K supercharger or opening up the engine? I may be asking too much.

cheers -

j
 
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Gforce

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quaife sounds like the common consensus.

Is it needed just to get me back to where my GTS was or is it somehow "better" than the diff in my GTS?

How much better than the stock SRT diff is it?

Can I sell my stock diff for anything?

Just curious.

j
 

MannyC

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Kai - Bill - In terms of track time, I have been doing PIR and SIR for the past 12 years and probably have 100 track days under my belt. The other driver has been doing it about as long.

Man, 100 track days. I'd love to hit the track more. I've got less than 20 track days still, but am hoping to get 1 or 2 track days per month from now on.

Thinking back, are there things that happened at around a certain # of track days that changed the way you drive? I'm still trying to make sure I look ahead and catch myself looking at the corner I am entering vs more forward -- hate that!

-Manny
 

Chuck 98 RT/10

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How much better than the stock SRT diff is it?

Can I sell my stock diff for anything?

Quaife will get the power to the ground in the corners.

I've seen stock pumkins go for $500. I could use a spare if you can't find anyone to buy it.
 

Kai SRT10

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quaife sounds like the common consensus.

Is it needed just to get me back to where my GTS was or is it somehow "better" than the diff in my GTS?

How much better than the stock SRT diff is it?

Can I sell my stock diff for anything?

Just curious.

j

Can't comment on GTS, but the Quaife is significantly better than the stock diff on the SRT-10. Turns are smoother, with no inside wheel hop and spin. I can get on the throttle significantly sooner with the Quaife coming out of the corner without unsettling the car.
 

quick2tr

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Addressing the original question,

I would think the K&N kit ($300 +10hp) and the VEC2 made by ROE ($1000 +35hp) would be an easy way to gain close to 45rwhp without altering the torque curve much.

My stock dyno showed very rich a/f ratio (and still made 461rwhp).
 
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Gforce

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Superbar -

For me, probably the most instructive thing was when I started driving more than 1 track. For example, the different corners and elevation changes at SIR helped me understand a lot more about my car.

Also, as much as I hate to admit it, finding out exactly where the limit is and what happens past the limit was very valuable. I continually have to probe that area as I make changes to the car but knowing where it is certainly helps.

My guess is that after about 20 track days, I started hunting for the limits in safe places. After about 30 track days I started really walking my braking points up. After that, its pretty much fine tuning as my lap times are fairly consistent (or at least were until I changed cars :) ).

cheers -

j
 

Chuck 98 RT/10

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Superbar -

For me, probably the most instructive thing was when I started driving more than 1 track. For example, the different corners and elevation changes at SIR helped me understand a lot more about my car.

Don't give Manny any tips. Not until after the Texas finals anyway.
 

MannyC

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The Texas finals will BE my 20th actual event -- an anniversary of sorts! Just keep an eye out for the NIGHTMARE NEON!

How many seconds faster should a Viper on slicks be than a Dodge Neon with DOT tires at that Texas World Speedway track?

Chuck, I believe this is around a 2 min track, so if I can get within 10 seconds of you per lap in the neon, no salt for you at dinner! Bet?

Gerald, you coming out from Florida too?

-M
 

Chuck 98 RT/10

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Ok, I'll take the bet. I'll just down 5lbs of salt the night before, just in case you put nitrous in the Neon...again. Gotta keep those arteries good and strong.

Ha! Gerald track? Not a chance. Gotta twist his arm just to get him to the 1320.
 

Vipermann

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Sounds to me like you might have thought you were coming out of the corners at the same speed, but weren't. If his car is coming out of the corner just 5 mph faster than you and hits the apex better and can put more of the power down sooner than you can, he's going to walk you, even with less power (been there, done that.) It's like Drag racing -- if you bog for just 1 second, you can have 200 HP more than the other guy and it's going to take you the whole 1/4 mile straight just to catch up, if you can.

He might have also lightened the car. My track Viper is stock (in terms of motor) but the car has a great suspension setup, is 300 pounds lighter, etc., and the car can run circles around my other Vipers at the track.

-Manny

If you were braking so late, this is likely the answer. There's no way a stock Z06 out pulls a Viper on the straights ... but also likely that he was running a set of 3.73 or 3.90 gears in back ... Viper 3.07 gears just don't cut it.
 
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Gforce

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yeah - I thought about the gearing. I have 3.55 but forgot to take into account the larger tires. Probably should have gone with the 3.73.

I almost wonder if I have that K&N problem people were talking about. I'll take it apart tomorrow and see if I am missing some HP. Maybe thats why he was able to pull me.

Also - its sounding a lot like some good heads and a vec2 would be a solid ticket for another 50rwhp. Still need to talk to Bill Pemberton and Bobby Archer but at least I am honing in on something.

thanks again for all the help -

j
 

Vipermann

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I didn't read where you already had 3.55s ... you should be solid ... something doesn't add up ... probably your corner speed
 
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Gforce

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Vipermann -

Turns out at least part of the problem was those stinking K&Ns. See my other post for details but the car is WAY more responsive now and pulls with much more enthusiasm.

Not certain exactly what that restricted hole controls but it feels like I gained some HP (maybe 20-25) and some responsiveness.

Have to take it back to the track to see if this fixes all of the problem. Seems like a small tweak but feels really big.

j
 
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