H E E E L L P . . . .I'm melting!

varanus

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H E E E L L P . . . .I\'m melting!

Today I went out for a cruise to the beach in my 97 gts and the car interior was HOT! Temperature ranged from 70 to 80 degrees outside and it was sunny. With all the windows down it was tolerable the first half of the day. If I rolled the windows up and used the ac it was worse. Cabin got hotter.
When I got to the beach it was about 70 to 75 degrees and I got stuck in some traffic for 15 minutes. The car got really hot although the temp gauge stayed in the zone at the mark slightly right of the 190, so the engine was within normal temp I think.. While stuck in traffic a buddy behind me tells me my car might be on fire! Well it's not on fire, just the right side sill overheating. I look at the sill and smoke is eminating from the paint (which has burned by the hi temp of the cat-big ugly brown spot on the blue sill) I can smell plastic burning
I have the roe blower with hi flow cats and I have posted before on the #10 cylinder running really rich at idle which gets the right side cat much hotter than the left.
When I finally get out of the traffic I pour water onto the sill to cool it off and the water just sizzles. I notice that the plastic plugs that cover the access holes to the bolts that you take out to remove the sill have started to melt.

After a bit I am on my way and heading towards home. Temp is running right at the 190 or slightly left or right of it on my gauge as I drive the freeway. It is still bloody hot and I am sweating.

Later that night about 7 pm I am cruising with another friend and it is about 75 degrees outside. He has never been in my car since the sc install and we are just crusing the streets with no long idle times except stop lights. We are both soaked in wet sweaty shirts and I can smell the side sill running really hot-but no smoke although at a gas station I pour more water on the sill and it sizzles. Both footwells are easily 30 degrees hotter than the outside temp and I can feel heat emanating from the dash area near the radio. Again the temp gauge is at the 190 mark or slightly right of it mark.. The only relief we had was driving on the freeway when we stuck out arms out the windows to deflect air in. Still the cabin was easily 15 degrees or so warmer than outside and way worse in the footwell areas and the dash. While he was impressed with the speed of the roe blower, he said he would never ride in my car again until winter because his shirt was soaked with sweat and it was just to darn uncomfortable.

My questions to you all are:
1. Do you have this much heat to a point that the ac is totally worthless? My car has always been warm even before the sc. Now it is so unbearible I don't want to drive the car anymore. In the winter I usually have the window down even if it's cold outside.
2. Have any of you done anything to insulate the car from heat? I have followed posts about side sill insulation, cutting a hole on the drivers side grill etc?
I suspect a large amount of heat is from the side sills. I am thinking of using some kind of heat barrier to line the sills. Also to loosely wrap the entire length of the exhaust including the cats with a heat shielding material. I think this would cool the interior along with preventing further paint damage to the right sill, but would it destroy the cat?
3. Where do you supose the heat is from on the dash? Could it be the stereo deck. The cds when ejected are quite hot.
4. Just running the vents with air (not ac) the air is hotter than ambient air outside.
Should I wrap the air box (for the ventilation system) in a heat shield material?

Any suggestions are appreciated. Along with the roe sc I have headers, hi flow cats, and a corsa 3" catback. Spending multiple thousands on an insulation kit seems unreasonable for me to have to enjoy my snake any other time than winter.
 

CAS

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Re: H E E E L L P . . . .I\'m melting!

That's horrible :( - heat sheilding might be your only option, although it seems entirely unreasonable. I initially looked to see if you did have hi-flows thinking that should help a little. Maybe you need Vipermed's hood to release some of that underhood heat.
 

V10 MOJO

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Re: H E E E L L P . . . .I\'m melting!

dude, do you have hiflo cats? 180 therm? radiator upgrade? waterwetter? do em all

somethings got ta work for you
 

GR8_ASP

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Re: H E E E L L P . . . .I\'m melting!

I do not know but my suggestion is to find out why you are running rich, such that the catalysts are getting over hot. Based on your descriptions of the heat I would say you have already overtemped the cats. That may be causing excess back pressure (due to catalyst melting), which will also drive the heat up. So the first step is to find the cause for excess fuel and correct that. Then locate any other damage that may have resulted. What you are describing is not normal.
 

GR8_ASP

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Re: H E E E L L P . . . .I\'m melting!

An additional comment. The coolant temperature and exhaust temperature have very little in common. The coolant temp is not a good indicator of the overall exhaust temperature. Sounds like everything you have noticed is refelective of a fuel-air issue. Any chance you have a stuck fuel injector or some other source of lots of fuel?
 

luc

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Re: H E E E L L P . . . .I\'m melting!

Varanus,

Putting on insulation kit will not solve you problem,you car is just putting out way more heat than normal.

I will look at the exhaust sytem,especialy the cats and the air/fuel ratio.

Cats are well know to "overheat" when the air/fuel ratio is to rich (to much fuel).

With all the modes that you have,it seems obvious that the stock air/fuel ratio must have been changed to have extra fuel, may be the ratio is fine for WOT but not for low rpm's.
The best solution would be to drive the car with an OBDII reader/diagnostic software and read in real time the air/fuel ratio at diferent rpm's.

Luc
00GTS
 
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varanus

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Re: H E E E L L P . . . .I\'m melting!

thanks guys. I have the 180 thermostat, fluidyne radiator, and hi flo cats.

The af is definitely too rich-at idle at least. As I mentioned I have the roe sc. At idle the number 10 plug turns black very quickly (within minutes) and Sean told me to run the engine at higher rpms to clean off that plug. However at idle it seems maybe #10 doesn't get enough airflow and runs really rich probably overheating the right side cat. This is a problem if I ever get stuck in stop and go traffic like I did yesterday.
Ted May at Valaya have tinkered with the car quite a bit. We pulled the side sills and found the cat on the left is 500 degrees while the cat on the right goes beyond the 750 degree limit of the temp reading gun we used. We read the temp of the headers right as they exit the heads and number 10 runs about 100 degrees cooler than all the rest making us think it is not burning all the fuel and dumping it into the cat thus overheating it. We have checked injectors, swaped them, swapped coil packs, harness, did leakdown tests to make sure the engine was sound, etc. As far as we can tell the engine and components are fine and perhaps something in the sc is causing the uneven airflow into number 10. A buddy also has the same sc and also has the black #10 plug problem.

Luc-will the OBD read af overall or individual cylinders? I will say that my cruise to the beach a car following me the driver got a sick feeling from the smell of my exhaust even though I have cats and that the inside of my exhaust tips are coated with black soot after 200 miles.

Help me before I have to buy a vette! . :p

Thanks guys
 

MHQC

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Re: H E E E L L P . . . .I\'m melting!

Varanus, I remember your post on the s/c thread about your #10...

I think that if the heat is this bad, no amount of insulation etc...will help. I saw a Viper up here where the guy had drilled a hole about 2 inches wide in front of the side sill and one in the back (so air could pass through) and covered it with wire mesh. It looked, well...very cool. He said it made a big difference because his wife stopped complaining. :D

If #10 is fouling, could you not change plugs, gap it differently or change the plug depth? Is modifying the injector an option? I'm just throwing out ideas here, but I would hope that plug fouling can be easily corrected...no?

If it was me, I would try the hole thing. If it was still too hot, I would try diff things with the plug.
 

Russ M

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Re: H E E E L L P . . . .I\'m melting!

Varanus,

Did Sean say if that was normal for #10 to get that rich? It should not be any different than the other cylinders, perhaps you have a bad plug/coil/wire/injector?

If its just #10 then it cant be o2 sensors. Is the catalytic touching the sill? Is your factory insulation still in there?
 

mrviper99

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Re: H E E E L L P . . . .I\'m melting!

Varanus, have had some of the same problems. Question do you still have your resinator in your side sills? I removed my and put on hi flow cats and side sills were just warm after a stop and go cruise. The biggest problem is the too rich, your just burning gas at the hi flow cats. I'm in the process of tracking down a no spark problem on #6 cyl. how I found that I didn't have spark at times, I used 1960 technology, a timing light. I'm running rich on the right bank also. Because of the no spark. Checked the plugs, wires(resistance), changed PCM, next I'm going to coil paks. I think you might want to try a differant PCM on my 96 it did make some differance. Or I'm sure you have a VEC 2 with the supercharger, you may just need to adjust it a little but you must fix # 10 first.
 
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varanus

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Re: H E E E L L P . . . .I\'m melting!

Varanus, I remember your post on the s/c thread about your #10...

I think that if the heat is this bad, no amount of insulation etc...will help. I saw a Viper up here where the guy had drilled a hole about 2 inches wide in front of the side sill and one in the back (so air could pass through) and covered it with wire mesh. It looked, well...very cool. He said it made a big difference because his wife stopped complaining. :D

If #10 is fouling, could you not change plugs, gap it differently or change the plug depth? Is modifying the injector an option? I'm just throwing out ideas here, but I would hope that plug fouling can be easily corrected...no?

If it was me, I would try the hole thing. If it was still too hot, I would try diff things with the plug.

I thought about the vented side sill as someone else had posted about it a while back. My viper tech didn't seem to think it would be worth it as there wasn't enough airflow down there at idle sitting at lights or in traffic where the problem is it's worse. But I still may try it anyways.

The sc calls for a plug gap of 32 originally then Sean suggested to change number 10 cylinder only to 28 to compensate for it's condition. It didn't change anything really.

I don't think changing an injector is the answer as i think at WOT it is sized correctly like the others. I guess if there was a way to shorten the pulse on that injector so it sprayed less gas at idle but went to the same settings as the rest of the fuel injectors, it could work. But I don't see any way to control it as such.

with any changes to number 10 at idle you would have to make sure it ran like the other 9 cylinders at wot or it might just run lean.
 
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varanus

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Re: H E E E L L P . . . .I\'m melting!

Varanus, have had some of the same problems. Question do you still have your resinator in your side sills? I removed my and put on hi flow cats and side sills were just warm after a stop and go cruise. The biggest problem is the too rich, your just burning gas at the hi flow cats. I'm in the process of tracking down a no spark problem on #6 cyl. how I found that I didn't have spark at times, I used 1960 technology, a timing light. I'm running rich on the right bank also. Because of the no spark. Checked the plugs, wires(resistance), changed PCM, next I'm going to coil paks. I think you might want to try a differant PCM on my 96 it did make some differance. Or I'm sure you have a VEC 2 with the supercharger, you may just need to adjust it a little but you must fix # 10 first.

I will check on the resonator

we know number 10 plug fires as we have pulled the plug , changed the gap to a bigger gap and watched huge sparks jump the arc. At idle there is no pressure from the blower so it's not like it has a condensed atmosphere that it has to jump through either. We did the pcm swtich, plug wires, harnesses, coil packs, still black plugs and hot cat.

I do have the vec 2 updated except for Sean's newest hot temp profiles , replaced all the injector clips and soldered them, added the 2 addidtional ground wires too.
Unless someone has a different idea, I think there is too rich of a condition in number 10 either thru too much gas or not enough air or not enough spark. We know the plug fires as we have tested it with several plugs outside of the engine. We know the injector appears to be fine as we have traded it with number 8 and number 6 cylinders and still number 10 is the only one with a black plug. I have also used a stethescope to make sure it is firing and not stuck open or closed. So I can only think of not enough air volume and/or velocity at idle going to number 10, Anyone else having these problems with number 10?
 
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varanus

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Re: H E E E L L P . . . .I\'m melting!

Varanus,

Did Sean say if that was normal for #10 to get that rich? It should not be any different than the other cylinders, perhaps you have a bad plug/coil/wire/injector?

If its just #10 then it cant be o2 sensors. Is the catalytic touching the sill? Is your factory insulation still in there?

Yeah Sean says it's normal. I have checked plugs, coil pack , and injectors (see other post)
 

HP

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Re: H E E E L L P . . . .I\'m melting!

This might be a long shot, the #10 is a rear cylinder, and in the case
of valve guide/seal wear, it's the most likely to **** oil on the intake stroke
because, the top of that guide, gets bathed in oil on acceleration. It wouldn't hurt to plug in an intake vacuum dial gauge - to see if that's the case. If it was the coil, the companion spark- cylinder(#5) should suffer also.
 

luc

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Re: H E E E L L P . . . .I\'m melting!

Varanus,

The OBDII reader will only read the overall A/F on each exhaust side but,it will also read each injector pulse witdh and timing and from there you can deduct wich injector is not working corectly.
That 2 cars with the same S/C have the same problem on # 10 will make me believe that there is may be a design problem with the S/C.
As for having to rev the engine in order to keep plug #10 clean, that a lot of crap, it's like saying that if your A/C don't work, only use the car when it's cold and therefore you will not need it.

Having a cylinder running too rich can only be due to 3 reasons or a combination of those 3 reasons.( putting aside mechanical issues)
1/ wrong A/F
2/ No or not enough spark
3/ Wrong ignition timing
First you have to make sure that you have a good spark, that done,you can switch injectors (let say put#10 in #5 and vice versa),
Then,2 posibilities:
1/ #10 is still bad #5 is OK The injector was good
2/ #10 is running OK #5 is bad the injector was bad

If it's 2, the answer is simple,get a new injector.

If it's 1, and you are sure that you have a good spark, there are only 3 possibilities:

1/ Mechanical,as the exhaust valve no closing completly or wrong valve timing.
That will allow some of the A/F mixture to leak down the exhaust before it can be ignited and burned

2/ Design parameter, not enough air being aspired/forced through this cylinder.
Obviously this must have to do with the mods that you did,not with the way Dodge designed the engine.

3/ Computer/engine management system, wrong injection pulse witdh and/or ignition timing
That mean that the valve in the injector stay open longer that it should or at the wrong time with too much fuel or not a complete burn being the result.


Luc
00GTS
 

HP

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Re: H E E E L L P . . . .I\'m melting!

Oh, don't cool the sill with water - it's just asking for trouble.
The heat expansion, along with a sudden contraction, from cooler water -
will weaken paint adhesion.
 
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varanus

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Re: H E E E L L P . . . .I\'m melting!

This might be a long shot, the #10 is a rear cylinder, and in the case
of valve guide/seal wear, it's the most likely to **** oil on the intake stroke
because, the top of that guide, gets bathed in oil on acceleration. It wouldn't hurt to plug in an intake vacuum dial gauge - to see if that's the case. If it was the coil, the companion spark- cylinder(#5) should suffer also.

Hugh, we did a leak down test already to check to see if there was any valve guide wear. Engine checked out fine so I think the guides are okay.Also replaced valve springs on number 10 in case a spring was weak or broken. Still no change

about the sill . . the brown burn spot it about 8 inches around, so a repaint is needed so I'm not worried about that-more worried about a fire.
 
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varanus

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Re: H E E E L L P . . . .I\'m melting!

Varanus,

The OBDII reader will only read the overall A/F on each exhaust side but,it will also read each injector pulse witdh and timing and from there you can deduct wich injector is not working corectly.
That 2 cars with the same S/C have the same problem on # 10 will make me believe that there is may be a design problem with the S/C.
As for having to rev the engine in order to keep plug #10 clean, that a lot of crap, it's like saying that if your A/C don't work, only use the car when it's cold and therefore you will not need it.

Having a cylinder running too rich can only be due to 3 reasons or a combination of those 3 reasons.( putting aside mechanical issues)
1/ wrong A/F
2/ No or not enough spark
3/ Wrong ignition timing
First you have to make sure that you have a good spark, that done,you can switch injectors (let say put#10 in #5 and vice versa),
Then,2 posibilities:
1/ #10 is still bad #5 is OK The injector was good
2/ #10 is running OK #5 is bad the injector was bad

If it's 2, the answer is simple,get a new injector.

If it's 1, and you are sure that you have a good spark, there are only 3 possibilities:

1/ Mechanical,as the exhaust valve no closing completly or wrong valve timing.
That will allow some of the A/F mixture to leak down the exhaust before it can be ignited and burned

2/ Design parameter, not enough air being aspired/forced through this cylinder.
Obviously this must have to do with the mods that you did,not with the way Dodge designed the engine.

3/ Computer/engine management system, wrong injection pulse witdh and/or ignition timing
That mean that the valve in the injector stay open longer that it should or at the wrong time with too much fuel or not a complete burn being the result.


Luc
00GTS

Thanks for the input Luc. We already swapped injectors around and still it's always number 10. We also checked valve clearences, did a leak down test for worn parts, checked for spark, replaced valve springs on #10. I have to assume ig timing is okay as we have triple checked coil pack to pllug wires and plugs.

If an injector was staying open too long-wouldn't it set off a code? actually there are several cars with number 10 fouling, but I think most people took off the cats and don't notice the problem. Ted and i are still scratching out heads, but believe it is inadequate air throwing off the A/F.
 

King RT10

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Re: H E E E L L P . . . .I\'m melting!

I had the same problem when I fist had my S/C installed
I or should I say (vipermed) pulled the hi flow cats and put turbo mufflers in its place to keep the sound down.
The temp went way down. I had roe cats in and they cooked with the S/C. It was fission. I started my own black hole at a red light hot.
Now everything is fine!
 

Russ M

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Re: H E E E L L P . . . .I\'m melting!

Sounds like a design flaw, perhaps Shawn Roe needs to deal with it. Pulling the cats is the obvious thing to do, but for many going way illegal is not an option.
 

Sean Roe

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Re: H E E E L L P . . . .I\'m melting!

Hi Kevin,
Did you ever get an opportunity to put the restrictor in the bypass hose? If not, let me know.
Did you remove the support post as we spoke about? Since yours was about the second kit, it has a full size support, which was later downsized and then removed to improve flow.
Do you know what the long and short term fuel trim adaptives are on the right bank? I just want to make sure it's not adding fuel.

Otherwise (for everybody else), here goes. Our manifold flows air better to the middle and front cylinders under vacuum than the rear two. When you go to boost, they equal out quite well. (Kevin was not told to "rev it up and everything will be ok").The stock intake has the same type of issue, but opposite as it has better distribution at vacuum than at wide open throttle, where the rear cylinders are the farthest back on a long plenum and struggle to get air left over from the cylinders forward of it. I took an intake off a stock car recently and #10's intake port was the only one with oil in it (standing oil that leaked out when we lifted the intake).

Beyond air flow and air / fuel ratio, which is correct or it would set a rich mixture code, there is a significant factor most people miss. That factor is ignition timing. At idle, the factory timing curve varies between 0 and 14 degrees, typically between 0 and 6 degrees most of the time. It's really hard to light the fuel early enough to burn completely in the cylinders with that little timing. The manufacturers do some things like this in order to keep cat temps up at idle and low loads to pass strict smog tests, explaining why we so many stock Vipers with brown side sills or cooked insulation when we take the side sills off. It doesn't make it easy for us as a modifier, but this fact and the rear cylinders getting the same amount of fuel as the forward cylinders, though there's less air for them, add to each other and can cause situations like this. It was a lot more prevalent before the VEC2, as the VEC1 was trimming idle fuel by way of MAP sensor signal manipulation.

We've found that going back to the bypass size we originally tested with can help keep more of the air in the manifold, helping the rear cylinders. The size we originally used was 1", though Autorotor later suggested 1.5", so that's what we used. Putting a restrictor in the bypass helps and we have them on about 6 cars total. I don't know if Kevin has had an opportunity to do this. (One of the design goals for the intercooler is to improve air distribution under vacuum.)

Kevin,
Let me know the answers to the above questions and if those known items have been done. We'll help you more from there. However, feel free to seek input from others as well.

Regards,
Sean
 

luc

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Re: H E E E L L P . . . .I\'m melting!

Sean,

Since the the overly rich A/F is due to the rear cylinders receiving the same amount of fuel than the others ones but with LESS air,can the injectors pulse witdh for those cylinders be reduced at idle/low rpm's?

Luc.
00GTS
 
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varanus

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Re: H E E E L L P . . . .I\'m melting!

Sean. I haven't had the chance to pull the sc off again. Since I don't have the funds to pay Valaya for an install again, I will pull it off myself to try the removal of the post like you suggested. I just need to find time to do the uninstall and install with my work schedule.
To everyone-Sean did not tell me to rev the engine to clean it off, he told me the plug would clean off once I got under way and to take it up to 3000 rpm a little bit as I drove. So perhaps I didn't quite word that right. Although thinking about it-I wonder if an occasional say 5 -10 second burst of running the motor to 2000 rpm at the light when stuck in traffic would bring enough airflow to clean the plug and help keep the cat cooler. Or would the increased revs just cause more heat?

Sean-will the new cards trim fuel enough to to help out the rich condition?
I don't know about the restricor but I will measure the hose tommorrow (to see if it is 1" or 1.5") and take it off to see if Ted put in a restrictor of some sort. I talked to Tony Armour a while back and he didn't feel it helped much, but will still check just to gather up info so we can try to fix this problem.. I am assuming by a restrictor that you want me to sleeve the hose to the bypass valve with a smaller section of hose inside of it if I don't find one?

Also I am curious with the same idea as Luc. Can you shorten the pulse length on # 10 at idle with the Vec 2 ?

Sean I would read the the fuel adaptives, but no longer have the OBD software you loaned me. I will see if I can find someone with a reader of some type.

Thanks everyone for you support and ideas
 

Fishtail

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Re: H E E E L L P . . . .I\'m melting!

Which hi-flow cats do you have? You should replace them because unburned gasoline in the cats ruins them :( . Are you able to lower the fuel pressure at idle to #10 cylinder? Let us know how it works out .....sc cars are a lot of fun :) to drive once you get it right.

-Lou
 

Sean Roe

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Re: H E E E L L P . . . .I\'m melting!

Hi Kevin,

The VEC2 is tuneable by right and left bank, not individual cylinder. Yes, the hot weather program (which runs less fuel) will help, as I had mentioned in the other thread where you asked. It may only help some to add the restrictor in the bypass hose, but it is still a help.

My suggestion is we send you the program card and a Delrin 1.5" to 1.0 " restrictor. The restrictor will install in about 5 minutes using a screwdriver and as you know, the card just slides in. I would only consider removing the post in the SC base as a last step since you wouldn't be doing it yourself.

Otherwise, to answer your original question, anything you can do to get air to and through the area of the side sills and cats will help tremendously. I know that our older RT/10 had small louvers or slits under the sills where our GTS does not. You may want to consider something like this also if you plan on keeping the cats in it; http://www.atpwrap.com/viper.htm .

Regards,
Sean

PS. Now here's what I'm wondering;
Since team Viper knew the cats run hot enough inside side sills on '92-'02 that the owners were looking at solutions such as ATP's, why didn't they just design the SRT-10 frame and exhaust such that the lower halves of the cats were exposed to ambient air flow like on 99.99% of the other cars on the road?
 
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