Michelin Pilot Cup reviews and/or updates?

[Bugeater]

PDM Racing had reviewed the tire and was unsatisifed with the grip over
sprint racing duty...mentioned they dropped off way to much and waaay to fast.

I was wondering if anyone could corroberate his claims, or did anyone come to
a different conclusion? I am worried about buying a rather expensive tire to run
at ViperDays and be ********** that they **** compared to my current Hoosier setup. I know they wont be as good as a Hoosier slick (As I have heard), but
was interested in hearing some new, more encouraging feedback. If not, well, does anyone know anything about the Michelin slick? I suppose I could run unlimited with the superchargers and crazy track set-ups...

I heard a rumor that they were "working" on the tire compound (the Cup tire) to
fix some of these problems...anyone care to share thats in the know?

 

[GTS Dean]

I haven't heard anything since that informative post some months ago. While they may not ultimately be as fast as Hoosiers, the whole idea behind spec tires is to level the field for everyone. One of the biggest problems with Viper Days early-on was the lack of a good class structure and adherance to a spec tire. Good, mediocre, or slow, the spec tires will affect everyone more or less equally. As always, it will come down to who nails the setup, gets the breaks in traffic, and can extract the utmost performance from the tire.

If you want lap records, run slicks.

 

[Bugeater]

Yeah I understand the intent to level the field, but Hoosiers were in the unlimited-only class. I actually think it was more a factor of sposorship than fixing a class disparity. I wouldnt mind and actually expect them to be less of a performance tire. I just dont want to spend serious money (arent they like 400 a piece?) on a tire that craps out after 10 laps! Most people have a problem with paying more and getting less, even if its "the rules". Ultimately I dont have a problem with this, I am just trying to get positive info on the tire chosen for Viper Days. (Eternal optimist here)

Has anyone heard if they have made improvements to the initial design?

How do the Michelin slick compare to Hoosiers? Price/performance?

 

[GTS Dean]

To tell you the truth, I think the main reason Skip wants people on slower tires in the Challenge classes is that there are some people who are very uncomfortable that a few 100% street legal cars are turning laps faster than half of the race group. This is not an equipment problem, it is a driver problem.

 

[pdmracing]

I stand by my initial assesment, but remember I was testing on 3000 lb cars with 200 & 160 hp! This is a fairly heavy cars with low HP so momentum is key. If you are going to run them you MUST shave them or forget it. They take a few laps to get up to temp & they are horrible cold. Running the low pressures reccomended by the engineeres the sidwalls felt spongy. Once they got up to temp they stuck but felt very uncomfortable. It took me many a lap to flat foot it through turn 12 @ R/A where on the Hoosiers I wouldnt think twice. Unshaved they are ok as intermediates in light steady rain, fair in the heavy rain. They are also smaller footprint than the hoosiers. A 245 cup = 225 hoosier, 225 cup = 205 hoosier. In fact on the boxster the 225 hoosier wouldnt even fit on the rim the 225 cup was mounted on.

the good news they last for ever!!!!! like the old toyo ra 1 but even longer. If you want to go fast , the Hoosier is still king, the shaved khumo #2 & I would rate the shaved cups with the shaved toyo.

 

[Janni]

To tell you the truth, I think the main reason Skip wants people on slower tires in the Challenge classes is that there are some people who are very uncomfortable that a few 100% street legal cars are turning laps faster than half of the race group. This is not an equipment problem, it is a driver problem.

Thanks for the enlightenment. You are basing this on what? Extensive conversations with Skip? My guess is no.

I'll base my response to you on those very conversations.

1.) Prior to this year, Michelin didn't have a reasonable DOT slick / Hoosier-like tire for the entire season - the Sport Cups were late last year. Now, they do. They sponsor the series. Skip specs their tire. Simple.

2.) Yes - the unlimited folks and others are turning VERY fast times. Faster than some race cars. THAT'S why you see increased safety requirements for Super Mod and Unlimited. Lack of safety equipment makes Skip (and his insurance company) uncomfortable.

If you have any other questions, Skip would be happy to discuss this with you - he's readily available at 847-594-8477.

 

[Bugeater]

Quick clarification - Is the "Michelin Slick" the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup, or another tire altogether?

Another Q - what size front tires can we run in Slick, Cup or whatever allowable tire for the challenge series?

 

[Janni]

John,
Give Bobby Archer a call - I know Michelin has a full slick, as well as the Pilot Sport Cups. Bobby works closely with Skip about the proper tires, and is stocking the "right" tires for your ViperDays applications.

 

[GTS Dean]

Janni, I'd love to prove it to you, but the 'past results' link at Viper Days is down. I know for a fact that Skip is concerned about the lap time/safety equipment equation because I've heard him say so. Keeping the classes on different rubber is a reasonably effective means of controlling ultimate performance.

 

[Janni]

Dean - I KNOW he's concerned about safety - I agree - but that's not the reason for the TIRE situation. Sponsorship drives tires and Michelin sponsors the Challenge Series. As you add more tire, you need more safety equipment. Agreed.

And as far as the Challenge guys going as fast / faster than the race guys - I KNOW - it's scary because the race guys have all the safety devices to keep them in one piece. Lots of folks will spend THOUSANDS on go fast goodies and nothing on safety items - Skip is making sure that he keeps them as safe as he can by requiring increased safety items as you move up in class. So it's about safety and sponsorship - not about protecting the race guys' egos. I think Michelin has a full slick that wil be legal in ViperDays and that may be a sticker tire than the Hoosier, so it's not really about slowing the challenge guys down...

That was my point - sponsorship and safety, not handicapping and ego stroking.

 

[JGarrett]

Hi all,
I'm a Challenge guy. I run Super Stock on the street Michelins. Yes I spent $ on brake cooling. roll bar, Seat, harness, and fire suppression, but many haven't.

A couple of points. 1. The Viper comes with Michelins so it's nice that new guys can show up and run without buying a different tire. 2. I've seen guys in Stock cars with year old tires run faster than guys in the unlimited class on either Hoosiers or Michelin Cup tires (hail Mr Rossi for one). 4. I've been in my car when Mr Archer was driving, passing some of the Comp Coupes on my Street Michelins. 5. they noticed a number of the wheels last year had cracks. (They're getting older). 6. Michelin has helped out by being a Sponsor for several years and is again this year. Lastly, I've been to a lot of venues with Ferrari, Porsche and others and Skip puts on a great event (one of the best I've seen) at a lot of exciting and expensive tracks.

My personal opinion is that it's good for Viper Days to have Sponsors to help defray some of the expenses. It good to have different classes based on the mods and tires that you are running to compete on a level playing field. And if you want to go faster you can; put the Cup or slicks on or use my approach which is trying to learn to drive better with what I brung. (Which ain't bad)
Cheers,
Jim

 

[pdmracing]

Jim good points , but Tires are the only real thing between you & the road, just 4 little contact oatches. I consider proper tire a SAFTEY issue. Driving around on old bricks is a sure way to meet a corner worker & definitely a false economy. It sort of like buying a cheap helmet.

 

[JGarrett]

Thanks PDM you'll get no debate from me regarding your observations. I totally agree that tires are a big safety issue. I replace mine at least every other event.
My point for bringing up guys who are fast on a year old tire was in response to the Bugeaters origninal query as to whether the Michelins fall off way to far and way to fast. My point in that regard was that even though they may fall off somewhat, they are still pretty capable. Certainly, they are not a competition tire and don't have the ability of one, but then again the Challenge series is still a driving school and everyone is there to learn. There are classes you can run Cups or Slicks or there's always that next move up Viper Racing League. One last point regarding some Challenge Series going as fast or faster than the racers, we must remember that often we have less traffic, we don't run a defensive 'you can't pass me' line, don't pass off line or in corners and a host of other things,
Cheers,
Jim

 

[Rich Wesorick]

Jim:

That is so not true! I was driving all over the track at MSR trying to keep up with you!!

Seriously, I enjoyed meeting you and look forward to seeing you again.

Take care,
Rich

 

[JGarrett]

Rich,
Too funny, and you had little trouble. It was a pleasure meeting you as well. I'm looking forward to this year....
Well I'm off to teach Porsche folks the rain line at Texas World Speedway.
Cheers,
Jim

 

[WCKDVPR]

re: Michelin Slicks

I just spoke with Courtney, Bobby Archer Motorsports, and Brian Monprode at Michelin North America. Michelin is producing a true slick in 27/65 - 18 XLT for the fronts and 30/70 - 18 XLT for the rears. The fronts are 270mm width, 650mm tall, 18" wheel, rears are the same formula. These will be the allowed spec tire for Super Modified and Unlimited class.

This is the same size as the GTS-R tires but a "Club racer" compound (not the super proprietary really sticky compound the Oreca team had). Quote from Brian, the Michelin "Club Racing slicks are optimized to be very competitive versus our competition, but safe for the average user. They are
only available in one compound." Brian also said no comparison testing has been done to see if they will be faster than Hoosiers, but he will be at Willow Springs to find out.

The rear tire is 27.7" tall which makes one think a gear change is in order. Also, the fronts want an 11.5" rim and the rears run on a 13" rim. Probably not what most unlimited class people have. Tread widths are 10.6" and 11.8", front and rear, respectively.

This is all fine and I think a spec tire is great, I just wish that Viper Days would leave the unlimited class "hot ticket" tire alone for more than one year so us less than filthy rich guys could get a few sets of wheels, set up their car, and leave it at that. This is the 4th year in a row the unlimited class tires have changed, and each change has required different wheels (Goodyear slicks, Hoosiers, Pilot Cup Sports, now Michelin Slicks). I think Viper Days are great and plan to run them again this year, but like last year, I won't be collecting points because I will again be on "illegal" tires.

I can also confirm from personal discussions that Skip is very concerned about safety and the speeds some of the non-VRL cars are running. He is absolutely right, we need to start thinking more about safety equipment before we go after that last 1/2 % more power.

Enough of my rant.
Best regards,