Motor Trend: Mini Cooper Beats SRT in slalom

Tomer

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toddt, did z06c (christian) nearly walk you on the street?
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Still, you ripping a 12.1 at your first trip to the strip, says alot about your driving and the car!!

Tomer
 
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toddt

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Christian--

My man, what's aaaaaaaap?

You see how hard we have to work to keep the truth out there about the Viper/Z06! I remember you telling me that a Viper could never do low 12's--that it's a 12.6, 12.7 car.

You learned, but a lot of others still don't know that their Chebby product, although a fine and agressive car, does not out-accelerate Vipers from even 6 years ago. ('97's). I see a lot of denial out there among vette drivers.

As for not being beaten on the freeway as badly as you thought you would be beaten...hmmm...didn't you really, deep down believe your car would pull mine?
smile.gif

When it gets right down to it, the difference between our two cars (with these Q-mile stats) is scarcely evident (but IS evident) at high speeds on the freeway--and we should have expected that!

That was a fun day--You should post your best timeslip here so we have a REAL Zo6 reference to talk about when the subject comes up...

Drive hard!
 

Guibo

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The Cooper S has the advantage in being nearly 10 inches narrower and 660 lbs lighter, while at the same time offering a better view of the road immiately in front of the car (the length of its nose is, like, nothing). Its steering overall ratio (defined in R&T's automotive dictionary as "the ratio of the degrees the steering wheel must turn in order to turn the road wheels 1 degree from their straight-ahead position") is 11.1:1, vs. 15.7:1 for the SRT-10, and both have very similar turns lock to lock (2.5 and 2.4, respectively). The only other car I can think of that comes close to the Cooper S's steering ratio is the Toyota MR2 Spyder, at 13.6:1. But that car has 2.7 turns lock to lock.

Also, the slalom tends to favor heavily understeering cars, and those that are equipped with narrower tires. For the longest time in the '80s, a Swift DB-1 Formula Ford held the record in R&T's slalom (which is one cone and 100 feet longer than MT's). 72.2 mph. Not even the Benetton-BMW B186 Formula One car (70.7 mph) could beat that.
While the Mini Cooper S does beat the SRT-10 in R&T's slalom, it is a fairly close margin. The Cooper S reached 69.5 mph. The SRT-10 did 68.6. For reference, the Ferrari 360 Spider was 2.0 mph slower than the SRT-10, at 66.6 mph. The 996 GT2, while nearly identical to the SRT-10 at 68.7 mph, is still .8 mph slower than the Cooper S. Other cars that are slower than the Cooper S:
996 Turbo: 67.8 mph
Acura NSX: 65.8 mph
Lamborghini Murcielago: 65.7 mph
Lotus Esprit V8: 60.3 mph

So, the Viper is in good company. The Cooper S in an exceptionally well-engineered car for handling, there's no doubt about that. Millions of dollars in investment by BMW have seen to it. Yet, the Viper has to contend with an 8.3-liter V10 and an open cockpit, something the 996's, Lambo, and Lotus don't have to. From this perspective, the SRT-10's slalom performance is truly exceptional.

The only real way to see which is faster is to test them in the same session with the same driver. When in doubt, limit those variables.
 

KepRght

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stop yappin about motor trend numbers vs car and driver etc...

if you want consistant real numbers then you need a device that can drive the cars on an enclosed inside corse

otherwise **** about numbers in magazines.
i have personally witnessed these so callled 1/4 mile c&d tests, they dont even scretch the tires on launch on half of the cars, and the other cars they beat the crap out of.

get a real consistant closed loop test for road performance (which is not possible) and then yap up a thread on numbers

your wasting your time

just rely on what real people who know their cars are posting for numbers not some guy who decided to try driving a viper for 10 mins


<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by KepRght on 01-31-2003 at 04:53 PM</font>
 

Paolo Castellano

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I would agree with Jon here, The overall diameter of the 345/19's is 27.4". A 335/17 tire has a 26.3" overall diameter. 26.3/27.4 = .959854. .959854 X 3.07 = 2.9467 or 2.95. So the SRT 10 is pushing a 2.95 rear end gear in relation to the 1996 GTS. .959 X 500hp = 479.9hp multiplication. .959 X 500LBS/ft = 479.9 LBS/ft multiplication. So the SRT, from a HP Multiplication standpoint is slightly higher than the Gen-2 motor but is slightly lower on the torque multiplication. The Vette has greater HP multiplication than the Gen-2 viper through the 1st 3 gears. The Viper still has a higher TQ multiplication through the gears. The gearing is why the Z06 can hang with the Viper to 100 MPH. With the taller tires it is the same as having 4%less power.

As far as the slalom thing goes, the Mini Cooper has the weight advantage of course... But consider this: if you consider the ratio of the length and width of the Mini Cooper to the spacing of the cones and come up with an arbitrary number of say 10. Do these numbers for the SRT 10 and you would probably come up with an 8. So if you increase the spacing of the cones in the slalom to accomodate the larger width and length of the SRT in direct proportion to what the Mini's is, I am sure, regardless of the higher weight, the SRT would have a higher MPH through the slalom. I remember being at a Miata autocross with my Viper; there was this thing they called a "garage" where you have to make a jog from the straight line you are on and go through these 4 cones in a rectangle... I had to practically come to a stop to clear this "garage" ==&gt; That little [******] Miata practically went through this "garage" flat out! Should I have been worried? In the context of this small parking lot autocross with all tight turns and the timing equipment on and going for the win? Absolutely! I did not beat the Miata! He was about 1.5 seconds faster. Do I care, maybe a little! Should I feel bad? I hope not. The Mini Cooper is just better at the slalom, that's all. No big deal. Paolo
 

Mike Brunton

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One other thing to remember about the Z06 is that, while the gears are shorter, it means you're shifting earlier also.

For example, in a 0-100mph run, you may get to 55 in 1st, 80 in 2nd, and make 100 in 3rd. The Z06 may need to shift into 4th to get to 100 (just making up numbers - illustrating that the Z needs to shift more and sooner).

The more important part, however, is torque multiplication over time. Let's say you line up with a Z. You both launch, and he is putting more torque to the wheels than the GTS, and he pulls ahead.. after, say, 200 feet that takes 4 seconds to cover, he's shifting into 2nd where is torque multiplication is 20% less. Now, YOU have more torque at the tire than he does... so for the next 100 feet, you're still in 1st and he's in 2nd... so you're putting more torque down than he is for the next 100 feet and 1.5 seconds. Then you grab 2nd and now he has more again for 100 more feet and 2 more seconds... but 80 feet later he's going into 3rd and again you are still in 2nd putting more torque to the wheels than he is... and so on and so on.

So, in 10 seconds which car can cover more ground and be traveling faster? It's not just about the torque multiplication of the gears, it's also about the RPM limit of the car, the actual gear ratios, the torque curve, and alot of other things. Yes, the Z06 may have more torque multiplication at it's torque peak than the GTS, but we are only at our torque peak for a fraction of a second, meaning it pales in importance to the torque CURVE. If you drew a graph, the GTS may have more torque to the wheels (even with it's lower multiplication) from 1,500RPM to 3,500RPM and the Z has more from 3,500 to 5,000 or something.

It's easy to argue numbers - the Z06 guys love to argue the numbers :) - because it takes out alot of the variables in the equation and they focus on one single point about why the Z "has to" be faster.

None of that really matters... back to back, stock vs. stock, equal drivers and conditions, the Viper is the faster car. That's the bottom line. It's been proven in the magazines, it's been proven on the track, and it's been proven on the timeslips.

I'm aware a couple of "good" drivers with intakes have run in the 11's. My friend Greg (who owns a twin turbo Z06) drove my BONE STOCK Viper to an 11.76. This is when the car was BONE stock, meaning no K&amp;N's, no smooth tubes, no special exhaust, no drag radials, no throttle body coolant bypass BS, no cut airbox.. the SAME as it was when it rolled off the factory assembly line. I have never seen a BONE stock Z06 accomplish this. As far as "just about stock" I've run an 11.68, Jamie Furman has gone faster, and Jason Heffner I believe has run 11.5's in his K&amp;N/smoothie Viper. I don't see ANY Z06's even coming close. I've seen a few guys with drag radials running 11's... when it comes right down to it, the MPH tells the speed of the car. The ET is how well you maximized the power potential - most of that is driver, but alot of it is the suspension setup too. No Z06 is EVER going to MPH STOCK than the equivalent Viper.

Having said all of that, they are close enough that a GOOD driver in a Z06 CAN EASILY take out a not-as-good driver in a Viper... but as far as the CARS go, the Viper is simply the faster car, no question. I give all the credit in the world to GM for making the Z06 so close... and all the credit in the world to the Z06 guys taking out Vipers... it warms my heart to know good drivers actualyl RUN their cars and show up the occasional poser in the Viper :) . But the cars aren't equal.
 

Tomer

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Todd, let me know if/when you guys plan to go back up and slug it out...I might just embarass myself and hit the strip too :D

Tomer
 

Paolo Castellano

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One other thing to remember about the Z06 is that, while the gears are shorter, it means you're shifting earlier also.

For example, in a 0-100mph run, you may get to 55 in 1st, 80 in 2nd, and make 100 in 3rd. The Z06 may need to shift into 4th to get to 100 (just making up numbers - illustrating that the Z needs to shift more and sooner).

The more important part, however, is torque multiplication over time. Let's say you line up with a Z. You both launch, and he is putting more torque to the wheels than the GTS, and he pulls ahead.. after, say, 200 feet that takes 4 seconds to cover, he's shifting into 2nd where is torque multiplication is 20% less. Now, YOU have more torque at the tire than he does... so for the next 100 feet, you're still in 1st and he's in 2nd... so you're putting more torque down than he is for the next 100 feet and 1.5 seconds. Then you grab 2nd and now he has more again for 100 more feet and 2 more seconds... but 80 feet later he's going into 3rd and again you are still in 2nd putting more torque to the wheels than he is... and so on and so on.

So, in 10 seconds which car can cover more ground and be traveling faster? It's not just about the torque multiplication of the gears, it's also about the RPM limit of the car, the actual gear ratios, the torque curve, and alot of other things. Yes, the Z06 may have more torque multiplication at it's torque peak than the GTS, but we are only at our torque peak for a fraction of a second, meaning it pales in importance to the torque CURVE. If you drew a graph, the GTS may have more torque to the wheels (even with it's lower multiplication) from 1,500RPM to 3,500RPM and the Z has more from 3,500 to 5,000 or something.

It's easy to argue numbers - the Z06 guys love to argue the numbers :) - because it takes out alot of the variables in the equation and they focus on one single point about why the Z "has to" be faster.

None of that really matters... back to back, stock vs. stock, equal drivers and conditions, the Viper is the faster car. That's the bottom line. It's been proven in the magazines, it's been proven on the track, and it's been proven on the timeslips.

I'm aware a couple of "good" drivers with intakes have run in the 11's. My friend Greg (who owns a twin turbo Z06) drove my BONE STOCK Viper to an 11.76. This is when the car was BONE stock, meaning no K&amp;N's, no smooth tubes, no special exhaust, no drag radials, no throttle body coolant bypass BS, no cut airbox.. the SAME as it was when it rolled off the factory assembly line. I have never seen a BONE stock Z06 accomplish this. As far as "just about stock" I've run an 11.68, Jamie Furman has gone faster, and Jason Heffner I believe has run 11.5's in his K&amp;N/smoothie Viper. I don't see ANY Z06's even coming close. I've seen a few guys with drag radials running 11's... when it comes right down to it, the MPH tells the speed of the car. The ET is how well you maximized the power potential - most of that is driver, but alot of it is the suspension setup too. No Z06 is EVER going to MPH STOCK than the equivalent Viper.

Having said all of that, they are close enough that a GOOD driver in a Z06 CAN EASILY take out a not-as-good driver in a Viper... but as far as the CARS go, the Viper is simply the faster car, no question. I give all the credit in the world to GM for making the Z06 so close... and all the credit in the world to the Z06 guys taking out Vipers... it warms my heart to know good drivers actualyl RUN their cars and show up the occasional poser in the Viper :) . But the cars aren't equal.

Hey Mike, that is a very interesting post, I have never seen the dyno sheet for a Z06 and did not realize the torque curve was that good that high up. I just knew it had way less, but that the HP multiplication was greater through the 1st 3 gears. I just know I have destroyed the two Z06's I raced on the highway.

By the way, what do you think of the 27.4" (taller)tire and the 4% less HP/TQ multiplication on the SRT?
 

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