New fuel economy standards...

dave6666

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We have an auto industry on it's death bed, so what does DC do to help-- it burdens it more with a new set of unobtainable CAFE standards--accept by FIAT 500's.

Without getting too deep into the subject, we've got an auto industry that mis-managed itself into this mess, that mess of course now having spilled over into the working folks and all of their financial problems.

Soooooooooooo, I shed no tear if the auto industry is now being burdened with the seemingly unobtainable task of this super mpg car.

They screwed us. Screw them back. IMO of course.
 

Lawrenzo

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The car companies didn't cause the financial market meltdown, yet it was that "perfect storm" that ultimately put them on the ropes. That being said, they probably wouldn't have taken the necessary steps quickly enough to ramp up fuel conservation had this mess never occured.

The horses are already out of the corral, so let's just concentrate on bringing 'em back home.
 

RTTTTed

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It's just a money game. The gov. really loves GREEN because that represents HUGE TAXES and allows them to feel that they actually helped the enviroment. It's becomeing Politically incorrect to say "Glaobal Warming" because the Artic is getting more ice in general, not just losing a bit in one area. Here in BC Canada our springs and summers are coming so late that the crops are suffering and underproducing. We need less and less Mexican workers flown here each year. There was 4" of new snow on the ground this morning!!!

Stupid Politicains are gradually saying "Climate Change" now, but I'm amazed that anyone bleieves the liars anylonger. I think the Greenies should go jump into a Volcano (we've had 3 polluting Volcanos during the last 6 months) and try to lower the pollution.

The Government added $15,000 to Cat engines in Semis a few years ago. They added $8,000 non-compliance 'taxes' to Cummins Variable Turbo engines for those same Semis.

Not hard to figure out why the economy was soooo good for a few years because of all the new taxes and insurance costs everyone couldn't save their money and spend their total income. Another few years of higher and higher taxes, fuel costs and it becomes obvious that raising taxes and not income means that the economy is going to collapse. First part of the economy to go was housing, then automotive and finally all sectors of Life. Although our Provincial Gov raised taxes so that a used Viper costing $50,000 also cost about $9,000 in taxes. Great for the economy but that nearly 20% taxes really cuts down on car sales and imports.

The Greenies says "Good, you should only be allowed 1 electric car anyway?"

All those losers should pass a law forcing themselves to drive scooters to show their commitment and dedication. The pollution they save will make up for all the old polluter cars (like my 440 Duster) that some of drive? The Greenies should pay ALL the taxes.

Beware the Governments that talk "Carbon Tax". It does not lower fuel consumption, but all rural areas, airtraffic, heat, flashlights, food, manufacturing and everything else in your area will cost more. Then the Cruise ships will go somewhere else to save fuel monies, etc. Even lowering income tax and handing out $100 cheques like the BC Government did is to screw ALL people. Instead of high income people paying more taxes it'll be every single person living there paying more to live.

Ted
 

Tabs1

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Yes, where does electic come from? But as important, where do the batteries and its components come from. What about the waste at the end of their life? So many variables and when everything is taken into account, life will be no better.
 

Dads Toy

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waiting for obama to lower speed limit back to 55 mph like in the 70's. easiest way to improve gas milage, slow down a little.
 

RTTTTed

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Depending where you live, my electricity (right subject?) comes from Diesel Generators. Although "yapping" about Green, green" the gov doesn't actualy do anything towards green except collect more taxes. Althouth they talk a good story, it's a pile of BS. We have global cooling, not warming. They get floods and records set in the 1970s for winter snowfall etc. are being equalled. Floods across the continent are equalling floods from the '50s and 70s. I'm not seeing any reason for higher taxes.

When we had a few warm winters and the Pine Beetle became a problem a few of BC's smartest people informed the Gov. that if there wasn't a controlled burn (small forest fire) to get rid the highest infestation in the province there would be problems. Now BC Forests are mostly dead. No Green work when the Gov could have made a difference in the Beetle Battle. Now the Liberals got re-elected by stating that the Forest Industry is coming back. No, it's not - they killed it.

The Liberals have ignored applications for a Co-generation power plant (Green) that would produce enough power to energize our closed sawmill (can't afford the millions it cost to buy fuel for Gererators), power our communities and supply extra power to the grid. The last 3 years have been a waste of time and the Gov has ignored "Green Power".

They seem to only want more and more of your money for their purposes. Taxes are much more than half your income (even if you're poor) which means that you could live on a single income if they hadn't taxed us so much. My DAD provided the income for my family, until some greedy gov. decided to take his money and spend it for him. Now we get 1.4M road repair jobs that cost 4.7M instead.

Ted
 

RTTTTed

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If Obama lowers the speed limit to 55 again the Gov will seize a lot of cars and accidents will go way up. The new "over 20mph above, over 30mph above posted" laws would get used a lot. So mnay traffic laws being made into criminal laws would add to the already overstressed jails and courts making them need a huge increase in money since they're already behind so badly.

You'd think that when we get added laws the Gov. would have the foresight to add the extra courts, extra prisons, prosecutors, judges, etc. etc.? Instead we get extra speed cameras?

BC's Solicitor General (Minister of Public Safety) was in the middle of a BIG campaign to hand out speeding tickets and added Driver's Penalty Points Premiums (more than doubled the cost of tickets). I paid $275 for 2 minor speeding tickets and on my borthday they'll send me another bill for $300+ or take my D. License. Anyway, it turned out that he "stepped down" from his 'Top Cop' job because he lost his license for 3 excessive speeding tickets. LOL.

Ted
 

certs_210

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From reading the comments here, it’s obvious I’m in the minority, so hopefully I don’t make too many enemies, but how about an opposing point of view?

Disclaimer, I consider myself neither a bleeding heart, treehugging liberal, nor a gun-toting, bible-thumping conservative. But I do find it somewhat amusing that any one side could blame the other for the current state of affairs. The dems cried foul last year when GWB signed this legislation, because it was a slap in the face to their beloved UAW. The conservatives now curse BHO for upping the timetable, mostly (it seems to me) because they simply don’t like him. Flame me all you want, but I think Bush and Obama both did the right thing. I only wish Clinton had pushed the issue when the writing was on the wall.

That being said, I’m one of the few who is fully in favor of the CAFE standards. In fact, I think they may be the only solution to save the US auto industry. The current average fuel-efficiency standards in Japan and the EU are 42 MPG and 43 MPG respectively. That is 7 to 8 MPG better, right now, than the US CAFÉ standards will be when they are fully realized 6 years from now. That is the single biggest reason why Japan and Europe are already making cars that are kicking our butts all over the playground when it comes to fuel economy. Necessity truly is the mother of invention. Their engineers were faced with the problem of designing and manufacturing cars under strict fuel-efficiency standards as much as 15 years ago. The result can be seen in the endless sea of Civics and Corollas. But lest anyone scream that the sky is falling, remember that they were also smart enough to balance the bland cars with ones that keep us car-guys happy. Which is why Japan recently gave us the GT-R. And even though Fiat will soon be pushing the 500 down our throats, they also give us the F430. Other examples abound: the same car company that brings us the Golf/Rabbit brings us the GT3. Some companies are really smart and bring us both thrilling monsters (M3/M5) as well as fun gas-sippers (Cooper S). This is all proof-positive that fuel efficiency standards will not homogenize the car world. The fun and exciting cars will still be around, and those of us willing to pay the gas-guzzler tax will still gobble them up. If keeping Vipers and Corvettes on the road means we need to balance them with a slew of boring mini-mobiles that run on air and rainbows, I say “bring it on!”

Furthermore, we have engineers in the US that are up to the task; contrary to the new wisdom, Japan and Europe are not producing the great scientists and thinkers of our age. The problem is that our designers and engineers, until now, were not faced with the right challenges. Instead, they have been forced to wallow in red tape, and work for the Big Three who have earned a collective reputation for stamping out creativity with ruthless precision. It’s way past time for both sides to step up… time for the engineers to prove (again) that we produce and nurture the greatest problem-solvers in the world, and time for the Big Three to provide them with an environment that is conducive to progress.

My true worry is that this will all be too little, too late. Next year when gas prices are $4 per gallon (again), and people are dumping their daily drivers for more fuel efficient models (again), guess who will have the best product to fit their needs? Hint: the Big Three aren’t ready. These standards are meant to be the kick in the pants that gets us back on track. I only hope they aren’t the last kicks to a dead horse.
 

RTTTTed

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From reading the comments here, it’s obvious I’m in the minority, so hopefully I don’t make too many enemies, but how about an opposing point of view?

Disclaimer, I consider myself neither a bleeding heart, treehugging liberal, nor a gun-toting, bible-thumping conservative. But I do find it somewhat amusing that any one side could blame the other for the current state of affairs. The dems cried foul last year when GWB signed this legislation, because it was a slap in the face to their beloved UAW. The conservatives now curse BHO for upping the timetable, mostly (it seems to me) because they simply don’t like him. Flame me all you want, but I think Bush and Obama both did the right thing. I only wish Clinton had pushed the issue when the writing was on the wall.

That being said, I’m one of the few who is fully in favor of the CAFE standards. In fact, I think they may be the only solution to save the US auto industry. The current average fuel-efficiency standards in Japan and the EU are 42 MPG and 43 MPG respectively. That is 7 to 8 MPG better, right now, than the US CAFÉ standards will be when they are fully realized 6 years from now. That is the single biggest reason why Japan and Europe are already making cars that are kicking our butts all over the playground when it comes to fuel economy. Necessity truly is the mother of invention. Their engineers were faced with the problem of designing and manufacturing cars under strict fuel-efficiency standards as much as 15 years ago. The result can be seen in the endless sea of Civics and Corollas. But lest anyone scream that the sky is falling, remember that they were also smart enough to balance the bland cars with ones that keep us car-guys happy. Which is why Japan recently gave us the GT-R. And even though Fiat will soon be pushing the 500 down our throats, they also give us the F430. Other examples abound: the same car company that brings us the Golf/Rabbit brings us the GT3. Some companies are really smart and bring us both thrilling monsters (M3/M5) as well as fun gas-sippers (Cooper S). This is all proof-positive that fuel efficiency standards will not homogenize the car world. The fun and exciting cars will still be around, and those of us willing to pay the gas-guzzler tax will still gobble them up. If keeping Vipers and Corvettes on the road means we need to balance them with a slew of boring mini-mobiles that run on air and rainbows, I say “bring it on!”

Furthermore, we have engineers in the US that are up to the task; contrary to the new wisdom, Japan and Europe are not producing the great scientists and thinkers of our age. The problem is that our designers and engineers, until now, were not faced with the right challenges. Instead, they have been forced to wallow in red tape, and work for the Big Three who have earned a collective reputation for stamping out creativity with ruthless precision. It’s way past time for both sides to step up… time for the engineers to prove (again) that we produce and nurture the greatest problem-solvers in the world, and time for the Big Three to provide them with an environment that is conducive to progress.

My true worry is that this will all be too little, too late. Next year when gas prices are $4 per gallon (again), and people are dumping their daily drivers for more fuel efficient models (again), guess who will have the best product to fit their needs? Hint: the Big Three aren’t ready. These standards are meant to be the kick in the pants that gets us back on track. I only hope they aren’t the last kicks to a dead horse.

Definitely interesting viewpoint. You've been to Europe?

6' wide streets, $7/gl., Countrys that you can drive across faster than it takes me to drive to the next town @ 3hrs.

Not the same kind of country and not needing the same kind of cars. They have cars that were never designed to drive at speeds faster than 60kph and therefor have 12" tires and teeny, tiny brakes. No areodynamics are needed for cities, just teeny tiny cars that can park in half of a 20x7' parking spot, because they don't have many parking spots. Cities that never end and some don't have freeways, bypasses, etc. Russia?

They mostly drive scooters there, right? Accidents are mostly someone hits your scooter and you fall over? Nothing like North America at all.

Ted
 

plumcrazy

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not one single car mentioned was even remotely close to a viper for ME. not one of them is more than 6 cylinders either unless im wrong (which is likely in my case)

some of us actually enjoy the sound,feel and power a v8 or v10 gives, none of those mentioned do that....at least for me. (but i do like the 430)

there is NO replacement for displacement

i dont even have a real problem with treehuggers wanting cars to go further on a tank of gas. if THEY want that car and are happy driving THAT car, god bless them. Just dont FORCE me to do the same.

.
 

MoparMan

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not one single car mentioned was even remotely close to a viper for ME. not one of them is more than 6 cylinders either unless im wrong (which is likely in my case)

some of us actually enjoy the sound,feel and power a v8 or v10 gives, none of those mentioned do that....at least for me. (but i do like the 430)

there is NO replacement for displacement

i dont even have a real problem with treehuggers wanting cars to go further on a tank of gas. if THEY want that car and are happy driving THAT car, god bless them. Just dont FORCE me to do the same.

.

Exactly! that's the problem isn't it - they're basically going to be taking away or at least extremely limiting your right to buy and enjoy a car like the Viper.
 

RTTTTed

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There's too many people telling me what to do, what to drive, how to act, what to say, what to drive, when to drive, how fast to go, hwere to go, etc. blah, blah blah. Too bad they're such complete losers. Think they'd try to get their life together instead of trying to run everybody elses - oh guess that's why they want to run our lives - because their lives ****.

I love life and enjoy it, as everyone can see in my choice of vehicles.

Once a citizen made a public statement that "Subjecting yourself to a vehicle that can actually be heard is like ******* in your cornflakes." ??? Never tried that, but I guess we'll just have to take his word for it as I am still enjoying listening to the throaty sounds of my Duster and my Viper, loud music from my stereo and I keep the volume high on my Big Screen TV.

Ain't life great??? :) :) :)
 

certs_210

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Definitely interesting viewpoint. You've been to Europe?

6' wide streets, $7/gl., Countrys that you can drive across faster than it takes me to drive to the next town @ 3hrs.

Not the same kind of country and not needing the same kind of cars. They have cars that were never designed to drive at speeds faster than 60kph and therefor have 12" tires and teeny, tiny brakes. No areodynamics are needed for cities, just teeny tiny cars that can park in half of a 20x7' parking spot, because they don't have many parking spots. Cities that never end and some don't have freeways, bypasses, etc. Russia?

They mostly drive scooters there, right? Accidents are mostly someone hits your scooter and you fall over? Nothing like North America at all.

Ted


I’ve spent plenty of time in Europe, yes. I certainly wouldn’t say that people in Europe drive mostly scooters. There are a lot of scooters in rural areas, and some of the flimsy Peugeots you describe in the French countryside. But if you’ve spent any time on the E15, or the E51, you know that there is no shortage of highway capable automobiles in Europe. And there are plenty of people that use them to go long distances. Their rural problems may not be as pervasive as ours, but the problems themselves exist and are of the same nature.

The story is the same in urban areas. London at 5pm rivals the worst traffic mess I’ve ever seen in LA or NYC. This despite the fact that motorists are forced to pay a congestion charge to sit and idle their engines. Again, the problem isn’t as pervasive because Europe has geography that allows public transportation to thrive. But they still have the same traffic and parking problems when the cities are large enough.

I guess your argument confuses me, because you seem to be saying that Europe is not building and/or implementing cars at home that are appropriate for export to the US. I simply don’t see it that way, because I think the Golf, Cooper, 500, and even the Clio Sport are great cars that can, and in some cases do thrive here. And I think we’re perfectly capable of making better versions of that genre here, especially if it means we get to keep the truly enjoyable monsters that bring car-guys (and gals) like us together.
 

certs_210

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not one single car mentioned was even remotely close to a viper for ME. not one of them is more than 6 cylinders either unless im wrong (which is likely in my case)

some of us actually enjoy the sound,feel and power a v8 or v10 gives, none of those mentioned do that....at least for me. (but i do like the 430)

there is NO replacement for displacement

i dont even have a real problem with treehuggers wanting cars to go further on a tank of gas. if THEY want that car and are happy driving THAT car, god bless them. Just dont FORCE me to do the same.

.

I'm with you Plum, I love my V10. But as for things bigger than a V6, the only car I mentioned that was less than 8 cylinders was the GT3. There are plenty of huge displacement cars from European makers of smaller cars.

Volkswagen makes the Golf. Under other brands they also make the R8 5.2 FSI (V10), Gallardo/Murcielago (V10/V12), and the Veyron (W16).

BMW manufacturers the Mini, and also makes the M5 (V10) and the M3, whose V8 is a work of art.

My argument is that there's room for both in our world. If it makes the greenies happy to sell gobs of cars that you'd never buy, but the benefit is that doing so allows a small segment of us to drive what we love, what's the harm?
 

John N

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certs, I think there are other things to remember about Europe too. A large percentage of families there will do their vacation travel by train, because they have this massive rail infrastructure subsidized by taxes. We don't have that, and I would hope will never have it if socialist govt practices are required to get it. The distance thing is real. I would have to map it, but suspect one could drive from Amsterdam to Italy in a shorter distance than it takes me to get out of Texas on the east side. In general, we drive much further distances. Europe does not have the recreational life we do either. Would you require every boat and RV owner to sell their toys since they require such an "impractical" vehicle to tow?? I for one am not at all in favor of packing 2 kids, a wife, a german shepherd, 400 lbs of gear, and myself into any 45 MPG econobox for a 1500 mile trip.

I get nervous with all the references to Europe. It is a great place to visit and has tons of history, but I would not want their lifestyle, work ethic, liberal governments, and tax rates. Great place to visit, but I would absolutely hate for us to become them.

Thank god I have my Vipers, my Challenger SRT, the wife's SUV and my pickups. We shouldn't need to buy any crap from any government motors company for quite a few years if that becomes necessary.

America is for freedom and opportunity, not government micro-management of everything!:usa:
 

RTTTTed

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I think that Geos, Minis, Tofors and other <30mph junkers should just be kept inside those cities and not alowed on highways as being too dangerous. Little cars, fuel sippers and little tiny brakes and tires are OK for city driving.

I've hit a 900# Moose and 3 x 120# Deer with my Pickup. Cost me $3500 for the Moose. $250, $280 and $120 to fix the Deer damage. My daughter was in a Mazda 3 that hit a Deer at 70mph and I'm glad she survived. The car did surprisingly well and only needs about $3000 repairs. The Deer hit at a lucky spot and turned into pieces. Wife's Ford Escape hit a Deer at 50mph and the repair bill was $3500 and $4500 for the transmission (computer wire shorted and lost hydraulic pressure.

Now a Smart Tofor would have become a write off and I wouldn't want to look at the people inside after a Deer. Imagine an 800-1200# Moose???

Drving along an ice covered 350mile mountain road in a little car that has only 1 wheeld drive would be stupid and asking for Death so those little cars should be banned from highways for safety reasons.

Driving my Turbo Dodges, Viper and even my Duster have enough protection to survive animal impacts. Driving a 1,000-2,000 compacr car when hitting a 1200# Moose just makes no sense. Why would anyone drive a little city car on a real road?

Here in BC we really only have 1 real city and I heard that Vancouver bought more Hybrids than any other city in N. America. Imagine that with a population of only 3 million?
 

certs_210

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There's too many people telling me what to do, what to drive, how to act, what to say, what to drive, when to drive, how fast to go, hwere to go, etc. blah, blah blah. Too bad they're such complete losers. Think they'd try to get their life together instead of trying to run everybody elses - oh guess that's why they want to run our lives - because their lives ****.

I love life and enjoy it, as everyone can see in my choice of vehicles.

Once a citizen made a public statement that "Subjecting yourself to a vehicle that can actually be heard is like ******* in your cornflakes." ??? Never tried that, but I guess we'll just have to take his word for it as I am still enjoying listening to the throaty sounds of my Duster and my Viper, loud music from my stereo and I keep the volume high on my Big Screen TV.

Ain't life great??? :) :) :)

Well, I wasn't out to make enemies, so I'll quit before the flames get higher. Before I go, I'd like to iterate that I'm certainly not trying to tell you or anyone what to drive or how to act. I drive the hell out of my car, and spend my free time with like-minded gear heads. I don't see myself as any kind of loser, but apparently opinions vary. And for the record my life doesn't ****.

The point I was trying to make is that I think it's completely possible for both sides to be happy. I feel like Europe and Japan are proof that it's possible to sell a buttload of small cars that keep the greenies quiet, and a handful of performance cars that make people like me smile.

Sorry you saw it as a personal attack on your freedoms, it wasn't my intention.
 

RTTTTed

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To each his own, and I commend people doing their thing. Most of us worked to be able to do what we want and we should be allowed to do so.

I'm unhappy with the low power output of a Viper so I made sure that MY Viper has double the hp. Because it is simple to upgrade the brakes I did that. I hate screwing around with phones, expecially while driving I installed a Blue tooth stereo. Since I hate CDs that scratch so easily I added Sirrius radio, HID lights, etc.

I still feel that if we want more laws, we should ban little engined, low speed cars from the highways.
 

RTTTTed

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No flames and I don't think anyone's taking offence.

Drive what you want, but be smart.
 

Kevan

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It's a shame the M5 is so insanely ugly (in my book).
Sure....the specs are there, and there's no doubt as to it's abilities.
But it's got to get past my Looks Dept. in order for me to shell out the coin for one.
Apologies for being shallow.

BTW- My Viper-powered ride is most fuel efficient at 71-72 mph (about 20 MPG. Oh, and that's with about 1500 lbs. of gear in the back.).
At 55 mph, my mileage drops by 20-30%.

I maintain my vehicle 100x better than 90% of drivers on the road, thus keeping my vehicle running as efficiently as possible.

Most electricity in the US comes from....... COAL.
Way to be green, people.
 

RTTTTed

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What's an M5? Thought that was a European highway - 5 lanes?

I travelled across the continent to Detroit last year with 6 other Vipers. My 19.7mpg was the worst mileage of all the Vipers. Dan's 08 Viper was best, getting 22mpg breaking it in. Mine was the only supercharged Viper of the bunch.

We averaged about 80mph. Didn't even try driving at 55.

Ted
 

Warfang

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this was posted on other sites. I bought a 2007 vette last month. don't beat me up please. I went out last night and took a 50-60 mile trip and kept it at 60mph. 6 speed auto and 2.56 gears got me 34.5mpg according to the mpg calculator. normal driving I get 29-32mpg. my car is doing 1100 rpm at 60 mph.

Yes... but in the morning, you're still a Vette owner! :rolaugh:

Seriously though, my GTO also has an LS2 engine... every time I try to duplicate your experiment, I floor it and leave a lot of smoke. What's the point of owning a Vette if you drive it like you're in a Aveo?

Enjoy these performance cars... they will probably be extinct in 10 years.
 

Canyon707

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I have to agree. Throttle up before its to late.
Yes... but in the morning, you're still a Vette owner! :rolaugh:

Seriously though, my GTO also has an LS2 engine... every time I try to duplicate your experiment, I floor it and leave a lot of smoke. What's the point of owning a Vette if you drive it like you're in a Aveo?

Enjoy these performance cars... they will probably be extinct in 10 years.
 

tennis tom

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Without getting too deep into the subject, we've got an auto industry that mis-managed itself into this mess, that mess of course now having spilled over into the working folks and all of their financial problems.

Soooooooooooo, I shed no tear if the auto industry is now being burdened with the seemingly unobtainable task of this super mpg car.

They screwed us. Screw them back. IMO of course.



In all due respect, I think you are seriouly underestimating the dire impacts corrupt governments can have on once free markets by heaping on them ever increasing burdens of insurmountable taxation and over regulation--not to mention intimidation by union goons and paid for demonstrators funded by George Soros.

I speak from first hand experience as a business owner who has tried to fight to keep socialism at bay in this country and taken the fight to the highest courts and LOST!

There is not much left to do short of revolution except to sit back and watch how this ugly mess plays out. I did my bit to try to preserve the constiution of this land. I have learned that it is now an irrelavant document. I'm a bit too old to fight right anymore and I pray it doesn't come to that.:usa:
 
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