SC or TT? Pros and Cons of each?

Michael Hatch

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The printed info and posts are not clear on the benefits of one over the other. Does anyone have enough knowledge on both systems to offer a fairly accurate comparison?
 

DocAdam

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A lot of it comes down to just how much you want to spend and just how much HP/TQ you want.

Real Quick

SC: Cheaper and Easier. Less Powerful. Good bang for the buck and more simplistic.

TT: The reigning champion in terms of price and power.


More in depth (stolen from another site and written by one of the top tuners for the 350Z - He is running 573hp at the wheels from a 3.5L V6 on pump gas):

Part 1

This is possibly the longest post ever posted anywhere and i had to cut it into 2 posts cause it wouldnt let me post the whole thing, but good readin for the n00b... I expect no more than 2-3 people to hold on to their sanity through this whole thing. Its more for me and im just processing my thoughts out loud.

It is all based on my personal experiences. If you have experiences that differ with mine... feel free. I would hate to look like a fool if I am incorrect somewhere.

I have read a lot of threads here about the SC vs TT and what not, and rather then reply to them all I just bundled up my ideas and personal thoughts and considerations. So it is sitting here if anyone cares to read. Everyone is talking about HP HP HP, but no one is talking about what these kits are doing to stop your engine from blowing up.

First I will go over why I made my premature selection on the Greddy TT kit, and why I will take TT over SC anyday. Then I will give my take on the fuel systems and tuning the 350z.

Why TT over SC? (all the reasons tend to revolve around the fact that the SC is crank driven and the TT is exhaust driven and controlled via wastegates):

1: More HP with less work from the engine. Twin Turbo systems, obviously, run off of spent exhaust gases. The only additional stress this puts on the engine is during the exhaust stroke of each cylinder as the exhaust backpressure has been severaly increased by the turbine housing... causing resistence to the piston traveling "upward" on its exhaust stroke. A supercharger hinders your engine with a 24/7 drag on the crankshaft. This drag is there no matter what all the time. This causes less RWHP at any given airflow value through the engine. I would say PSI rather then airflow, but for the techies that know, PSI is not everything, the density of that charge pressure is a HUGE factor based on compressor efficiency and intercooling.

A twin turbo Z, and a supercharged Z, both with 400rwhp... guess which one is getting better gas mileage, will last longer, and putting less load on the engine to produce those #'s.... your right.. the twin turbo car wins.

2: SC systems boost with less control. While they are consistent, there is less throttle based control. If you have ever driven a turbo car for more than a minute you already know that you can keep out of boost very easily if you want to. Not to mention the fact that a turbo system will allow on the fly boost changes with a boost controller.

A little bit of lag is good... I personaly find it annoying when I drive cars with tiny turbochargers... just trying to drive somewhat peppy and they are all up in my face boosting non stop just taken off from a light... relax little guy im just trying to drive im not racing anyone. Geegh, I definatly would have no appreciation for the superchargers always trying to boost on me.

3: Reliability. A WELL engineered turbo system, properly installed, will not need to be screwed with. SC systems commonly eat belts. I sure would be pissed if I lost a belt just when getting into a race. A turbo system using cast iron manifolds, reputable turbos, flex sections in the downpipes, blow off valve(s), and good oil feed and return lines can go a LONG LONG LONG time without any special attention providing you do not shut off the engine immediately after boosting hard often.

4: Noise, SC cars make a lot of noise. The SC itself makes noise even when you are just sitting there at a light. A turbo system can be very civil and go completely unnoticed if you desire and drive it so. Exhaust tone of a turbo car is typically much more toned and civil than a SC or NA car.

5: The ONLY downside from the turbo system is the LAG. Well... I drive turbo cars ALL the time. Instant spool up can be annoying, like I said previously. But at any rate... if you have owned a turbo car and played with it before, you know that turbo spoolup is pretty much instant at a high RPM.

So to those who are argueing lag as an excuse to not go turbo... when you are about the race someone on the highway are you sitting in 5th gear at 1500 RPM before you punch it? If so, you lost the race before it started. Realistically your sitting there in 3rd gear at 4500RPM waiting to punch it... do that in a turbo car and you got instant boost. EDIT: Removed misleading and sarcastic comment.


Why have I picked the Greddy TT kit over the ATI Procharger or any other?

1: Cause its a TT kit, of course.

2: The prices that everyone is throwing are MSRP. If Greddy products actually sold for anything NEAR MSRP... I would be a rich man. Expect about 20% off of what Greddy says it will cost.

3: The potential of the Greddy TT kit is astounding. With the turbos they selected, which I have used before... this kit can produce over 500rwhp if someone wants to push it to its limits... I will be towards the front of the line to push this kit to its limits.

4: Greddys fuel system offered in the 350z TT kit is the the best you can realistically do. Dont talk to me about standalone EMS' cause I already know about them and use them. There are a large number of factors that point to keeping the stock ECU in a 350z and using just a piggy back to tune. The ATI kit uses an advanced FMU, this has pretty much no appeal to me.

5: Reliabilty. The Mitsu turbos in the Greddy kit are very reliable. The cast iron manifolds will not crack. I have seen and run into problems with greddy oil lines and downpipes, and for this reason unless I see a change of trend with this new kit, I will be building new stainless braided oil lines and downpipes when installing my kit. So maybe I cant use this point against the other kits since I am already counting on making immediate changes.'

6: Upgradability. I will tell you now that it DOES NOT take 2 18gs to make the power that greddy is saying their kit makes. It takes 1. Since greddy kit owners will be so fortunate to have 2 of these turbos on their car... the potential is there to go for super big HP upwards to and possibly surpassing 500rwhp. The greddy turbo kit for the Civic Si DOHC 1.6L that uses 1 of these turbos makes over 250rwhp at 7 psi. The 350z has over twice the engine, and 2 of these turbos. Put 2 and 2 together and you know what I mean.

Thats all I can think of at the moment.

Fuel system options... There are basically 3 methods to get the fuel and spark tuning done right when you put a turbo on a NA car.

1: FMU (high rising rate inline fuel pressure regulator, or "Fuel Management Unit").
2: Piggyback (such as Greddy's E-Manage, or the Split Second unit)
3: Standalone EMS (complete indepentant engine management system.
 

DocAdam

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Part 2

Here is my basic list of pros and cons of each system. However first I wanna preach some tuning. I own a shop, and a dyno... and I tune cars. While I am far from an authority on tuning... I am not new to it. One thing I feel is WAY too far overlooked is ignition timing control... ESPECIALLY when puting a turbo on a NA car.

Too much timing melts pistons more often then too lean of fuel. The flame front from combustion travels much faster as pressure increases. For this reason you need to retard ignition timing so that flame front doesnt jack your piston while its still trying to raise on the compression stroke or while its still dwelling at top dead center. This is by far the hardest part of tuning, and I personally feel the most important as it will RAPIDLY destroy engines, or increase and decrease power quicker than anything.. and its actually difficult to get perfect. Fuel curves are pretty easy to get right when you have a wideband o2 datalogger.

Ive seen turbo hondas come in here with nasty lean fuel curves that have been running around untuned like that for a long time and still managing to hold together. And then I have seen hondas that have too much timing crack and melt off their pistons ring lands within a day or two. I am referencing hondas because I own a shop and hondas are by far the most popular car commonly converted from NA to Turbo. For this reason they go thru it all and have it actually figured out better (as a community) than anyone as these guys are not too uncommonly seen making over 400fwhp on pump gas from very small engines.

Fuel tuning on a car like the 350Z can be difficult when going from NA to Turbo. This is because it uses an airflow meter device. airflow meter cars are typically smarter and will self adjust for increases of volumetric efficiency until the point where the meter has been maxed out. This would be super awesome if the stock airflow meter could read up to 500hp worth of airflow, but i will promise that it cant.

Heres where the complication comes in: Say you have a FMU, a turbocharger, and an airflow meter that outputs 0-5v with 5 volts being max airflow. All numbers are just random here but you will see the point. Your cruising at 2000 RPM, airflow meter is readin 2.5 volts. You decide to give it a little go. You increase throttle, airflow readings increase, and the turbo systems starts to generate pressure. Airflow readings are at 3.2 volts well within the stock fuel systems limits. But wait.. you are at 2 psi of boost. Your stock fuel system is already injecting the needed fuel for the current airflow, yet your FMU is jacking your fuel pressure by an additional 24psi... hmm, your now running way too rich. Boost response is crap, gas mileage is crap, and there is a bog sensation to pull thru.

There are ways around this if you play around. Rather then having the airflow meter after the filter, you can put it after your compressor of choice. Assuming your airflow meter can handle the pressure, this can work well because the airflow meter doesnt see the pressure. I guess you could say it is seeing the "speed" of the air coming in, but not the fact that it is pressurized. Of course most airflow meters have built in air temp sensors so its also good now because the stock ECU has fuel and spark correction tables based on air temp... so letting it see that hot post compressor air is a good idea to help the sake of tuning.

So now where does that leave us? It leaves us with the idea that all we now have to tune out is the fact that the engine has a pressurized intake charge... rather then having to deal with the stock ECU making up for some of the boost some of the time... now it will never know its there and we can start with a clean slate. If the car ALSO has a MAP (Manifold Air Pressure) sensor somewhere on the intake manifold... then you have an even smarter car. But MAP sensors are easy to overcome. You can simply moniter the output voltage with the engine off, key ON, (0 vacuum, which is full load on a NA car) and then install a voltage clamp that never lets the voltage pass this point. The idea here is to protect you from check engine lights and limp modes.

Also... it wouldnt catch me off guard if the 350z had a voltage limit on the airflow meter as well, causing a check engine light and possibly a limp mode. This could be worked around as well if it just so happened to be true.

We can now use devices that alter fuel and ignition tuning based solely on boost pressure, just like a honda guy can (hondas dont have airflow meters).

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FMU Pros:
Easy to tune, if you call that tuning.

Will get you thru smog testing in most states. Lots of states dont even do a rolling test on the dyno if the OBD-II system is not storing any trouble codes. So no problems here.

FMU Cons:
No real tunability. Some adjustable ones like the aeromotive one used in the ATI kit is the one to have if you really must go down this path.

No ignition timing control!! Add an independant timing adjustor... something like the MSD BTM that can retard the ignition timing per psi of boost.

Jacked up fuel pressure... better make sure all those lines are tight and up to the job of regularly seeing over 100psi, which is over double factory fuel systems are designed to operate at.

Generally crappy boost transition. I havent seen one yet that doesnt go way way too rich just as the boost comes on. Perhaps that Aeromotive toy provided with the ATI kit doesnt have this problem. No experience with exact device.
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Piggy Back Pros:

I will focus this only on the E-Manage and Split Second unit (which I have never used, but I am under the impression its very alike with the E-Manage, correct me if im wrong). The little guys like the S-AFC and what not just arent up to this task. If you happen to be aware of the "S-AFC Hack", I dont even want to discuss putting that on a 350z.

A modern and worthwhile piggy back system can do a few things. It can modify airflow meter sensor voltage output to the ECU based on RPM. It can tap into the injector wires and extend the injector pulse width based on a correction table of RPM and MAP. It can also advance or retard your ignition timing with a RPM/MAP table.

THIS is prime. While it can be hard to get a nice flat fuel curve due to the stock ECU having SO many correction maps... you have everything you need.

Add fuel for boost? Easy, build yourself a table and do back to back tuning runs on the dyno or other means of wideband dataloging... starting rich and work your way to your ideal A/F ratio. This is great because you are just building your own correction factor. The stock ECU is already doing a great job of firing the injectors correctly... you are simply taking that signal to the injector and holding it open longer based on boost and RPM... the system is tapped into the injector wires after the ECU so the ECU has done its thing, your just adding a longer pulse when needed.

Retard ignition timing for boost? Easy, same as above... just start with a easy table of retard per PSI, then after your fuel curve is ideal on the wideband, tune your timing based on EGTs. Since your stock ECU is in there it is already got an AWESOME ignition map and tons of great correction factors... you are simply adding a boost correction table since the stock ECU is running too much timing for boost.

Need a larger injectors? ehh... you can do it but thats where it starts to get a little bumpy... and the larger you go the bumpier it gets. A small increase is no problem. Heres what goes on... if you put in a larger injectors you need the ECU to not fire the injectors as long as it does. The only way to make it fire shorter is to make the ECU think it needs less fuel. Only one way... take the airflow meter signal and drop it by a percentage. This sounds all good but it causes one little problem. Your stock ECUs main ignition table map is based on RPM vs Airflow. By dropping that airflow signal you are now putting your on a different place in the airflow map... A place that says to add even more timing. So now you need to factor this into your ignition correction map. Not so great big of a deal, but the more do hacks like this your are gonna screw with the fact that stock timing maps on new cars are super awesome and your putting yourself on the wrong part of the map. Remember if you only need to correct for the boost, your not too bad off.

Your car will still pass the SMOG test that inspects for trouble codes.

Piggy Back Cons: With a system such as or alike to the E-Manage your hard pressed to find a Con... other than that whole injector thing. If your building a RACE CAR get a standalone EMS.
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Standalone Pros
Theres only 1, complete control of everything all the time. What else could you ask for.
 

DocAdam

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Standalone Cons

1: Face it, the car will never, ever, run as clean as it did on the stock ECU. Your stock ECU was developed by a team of some of the best tuners in the world with over 30 years of R&D of engine tunine behind it. With a EMS... you are starting from SCRATCH. Most modern standalones will offer you with all the correction factors that a stock ECU has... but you still have to set them all yourself. The car will run perfect at WOT... but even a finely tuned EMS will typically have trouble starting, specifically in cold weather... it generally takes a few cranks to start even on the best of days. Sometimes it wont start at all and you gotta figure out where your wiring went bad or what start correction factor you screwed up.

2: When you go to SMOG and they plug in the OBD scanner... your standalone wont have much to say to that scanner. Now your car either gets denied or it hits the rollers... good luck. If your ******** you keep the stock ECU in the car, pull a lot of tricks out of your *** and make that ECU think that it is still running the engine... then you will pass this smog test. Its been done plenty of times but it can take some R&D.

3: Unless you get a plug and pray like the AEM EMS, be prepared for the wiring experience of a lifetime. Not to mention in many applications you will need to fabricate a custom crank trigger setup.

4: Its not uncommon to loose use of some of the factory gauges as they process signal from the stock ECU that some EMS' cannot duplicate. Bust out the autometer MONSTER TACH! Or do some custom electronics to convert the signal, or keep the stock ECU in there for a tag team setup... or hope that your car isnt one of those with a jacked up instument cluster.

Ehh thats all thats been floating around in my head in the last 2-3 hours of processing thoughts on puting twins on my Z. At one point in time I was going to build my own system for it, and then market it. Then I realized that anyone would be really hard pressed to beat the Greddy kit when its comes out. So I am waiting for my Greddy kit, and when it gets here I will make a few improvement to it while installing it... and possibly market my improvements.

-Charles
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573rwhp @ 14.5 psi
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