Skip Barber Instructors

[Tom and Vipers]

Each instructor had his own idea how to drive the course.

Go high, go low, trail brake, don't trail brake, stay on the inside, go to the outside, go in a straight line, don't go in a straight line.

Some were chatterboxes some where not.

Seriously, this is not the way to instruct.

Some coordination or consistency should have been maintained.

Anyone else have this reaction?

 

[jkracer9]

Yea and I thought I was the only one that felt that way so I didn't say a word. Coming into the first s the instructor didn't say a word, locked up the breaks and said that I spun because I came in to fast. If he hadn't pulled the parking break I would have been ok. He was to put it blunt, an *** . I looked over and said s*** you and drove into the pits.
I will tell you this much, I plan on going to a couple of driving schools and I can tell you what school will never get my dollar.

 

[Birvini]

I'm glad this came up. I only went with one instructor and did everything he said to do, and when to do it. BAD IDEA. I should have done what I wanted to do, which was break earlier than he told me to into the first s. I ended up braking to late per his instruction. Not a big deal, as I only rammed into some cones, but it could have been worse. After that he had his hand on the steering wheel almost the entire time and I did not feel comfortable at all!!! That was my first time on a track and a first time with an instructor. I should have tried a few more times with other instructors, but I did not have any confidence in the one guy I had so I threw in the towel. Next time I'll do what I want to do!!!

 

[Mark Red GTS Cooper]

I also agree, I had 56 laps, with personalities that ranged from "Hey have a good time, let it out" to the steering wheel control freak.

I have video of a car that blew through the entrance to the track that I almost hit because the instructor did not have the driver stop for cars coming off the front banked track.

Birvini, do not let the instructors shake you, next time, tell them you are ready to go in, and get another instructor.

I hope Skip is reading this, because he needs to have a serious strategy talk with his instructors, and get them on the same page.

Skip, if you are reading this, I have video with several of you instructors all saying something different. My favorite line is... "OK, now let me show you the correct line" SO WERE ALL THE OTHER INSTRUCTORS WRONG!

mark

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

These instructors have a very difficulty job riding shot-gun on a high speed track with someone they do not know.

I had great instructors at the track and at the autocross (SRT10 and Neon).

Based on the instructors est. for the drivers skill level his input will vary depending on his limit for fear.

Pulling the e-brake is not something any instructor wants to do. that is the last resort to protect all parties. It puts the car in a skid that is predicable so the cars behind you do not mix paint with you.

Coming off the banked part(high speed) of the track straight line braking required and I am sure 100% of the instructors gave that instruction. This is basic 101 driving - brake in a straight line. One of the hard thing to learn is amount of brake to apply and the Instructor has a hard time telling you to apply a specific amount of braking when the driver has no clue what or how to brake at the limit. Coming off the banked area drivers needed to apply enough brake to be able to turn on to the infield track section.

Drivers that know how to drive could use trail braking on the infield section first rt turn and the first part of the S's.

Going high or low on the banked sections had a lot of room for flexibility depending on exit speed and the instructors concern for safety and traffic behind you.

Coming off the back bank into the left sweeper staying close to the inside of the track seemed to be the smart think as it allowed for a little slip with pavement still under the wheels. But I did pass on the out side as cars were going back to the pits. Some instructors may want to take this section on the outside but that leaves no wiggle room on the pavement. That is a good speed turn and going into the grass there would not be a fun ride with or without e-brake.

Take any driving school you want, the physics will be the same. Contact Patch, weight transfer, braking, looking ahead, etc.

I have attended many Skip Barber schools and they are GREAT!

Give these guys credit for having the balls to ride with us!

 

[Andy]

I had a great time. I don't have much to compare it to though. I am at a pretty basic level, so maybe that helped. The instruction I got did seem consistent, but again, maybe that's because they were instructing to my level.

I did have that one guy grab the wheel. That was pretty unnerving, but he was just trying to get me to go deeper into one of the corners. I knew what he was doing, and why.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

These Instructors know how top drive and most race at some level as much as possible.

Why do they assist with the steering wheel?
1. The driver is not following directions. Turn in? Get to the apex cone? Track out? If you do not get these terms and put steering input to achieve same they will!
2. Driver is turning in early - typical mistake can result in an off track adventure.
3. Driver turns in late, may miss the track out and following turn in area.

If you feel that your instructor was giving you too much info perhaps a few driving schools, and Viper Days will help you understand performance (track) driving. I know the feeling and did not like it. That is why I have taken many Skip Barber programs (Viper specific program, car control, lapping days) and continue to take a couple per year and Viper Days, as time allows.

 

[Mark Red GTS Cooper]

Ok, So 1 out of how many had a great time,,,,

 

[Dave Golder]

This is kind of a funny topic. I instruct for a few race schools as well as do a lot of racing on my own. I am never big on giving the student physical input on their car...unless I am trying to save my hide. But I do talk to them non-stop as to what input to give the car.

The reason I say this is funny is that for an instucter.....the worst possible student is generally...but not always, a male with a lot of money and a fast car. Most of the time they know it all and just want to argue. But you get a student in some broke dick import car...that runs circles around the rich guy in the fast car becasue he is willing to listen.

It's not always that way but more often than not it is. This is by nomeans a slam as I am one of those guys with nice fast cars but you can ask any instructor and I think most will agree.

Dave

 

[Brad_Milde]

Yeah, I'll admit, it does take pretty big balls for most of these instructors to ride with complete strangers. I'll also admit, it was probably getting kind of hot riding in those cars all day. But........it's their job! I felt too that at VOI some instructors were confusing and a bit snappy at times. Absolutely no reason for that at an event that is meant for Viper owners to have the best possible experience and fun.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

OKAY forget being PC. These guys are performance driving instructors for the largest and best driving school in the world.

You may find one or a few that get short with unskilled drivers that are not getting the picture. I bet as a percentage there were more unskilled drivers than rude instructors.

Their job? Interesting they work for a Driving school and once every 2 years are asked to ride with strangers in Vipers with no tech inspection, on a high speed track. How crazy is that?
I do know of one accident where one of these guys almost died being the passenger. The drivers car rolled and broke the instructors neck.

The instructors are at these events to keep us from getting and our cars damaged if possible. It is not a school for 1400 people.

I did the Nashville Super Speedway and 3(My car, Neon and SRT-10) autocross events and everyone (drivers and instructors) I saw was smiling and seemed very happy driving. The only complaints I have heard are from the few who have posted here. For my own info I will ask members of our region what they experienced.

Give them the credit and respect they deserve.

 

[jkracer9]

Big money, we'll that was not my problem as I have none. My instructor said Hello and that was it. I have also attended many driving schools and the best instructors usually start of with "do you understand the track, driving line", " Here is what I expect and will try and help you with", "if you follow my simple instructions we can booth have a great time and you can enjoy some top speeds".
After hello it went silent. When I get into any instructors car I am all ears and ask simple questions when I am not sure. I stick to my first post, The instructor was not a people person nor that good at his job. Sure he might be able to drive but instruct, not at all.

 

[Tom and Vipers]

Bascially, I listened to the instructor and looped the car.

I am a habitual trail braker. Further, I tend to enter slow and exit fast.

I feel comfortable with this.

Well, instructor number N kept saying I should just lift on the LH corner just before the S's.

This is completely against the way I drive. I don't drive that way. I'm not a bad driver, but I like the immediate control of the car with the brake during trail braking.

So anyhow, I had not idea how this was going to work, so I didn't make the S's, spun on the 1st S, recovered and lost the snap.

This is the 2nd time I've lost the snap on an unexpected spin. On expected spins, I have controlled them.

I would really, really, like to get a Viper on a skid pad so I could experiment with skid control.

I still think this is the most important thing a person could do as far as learning how to drive a Viper.

Especially since it has one of the most nastiest snaps around.

Tom

 

[ewave]

Interesting to read other people's opinions. Mine is the similar.

Not a single instructor asked me how much experience I have driving, and they all pretty much assumed I was an rich idiot in a overpowered sports car and that this was my FIRST lap on the track.

I had some really good instructors. Some average ones and at least one awful one. The odd thing about the awful one was the gender: Female. This is odd, as females are rare at tracks, and I have always found them in the past to be way above average in driving and instructing skills. She took forever to figure out how to put on the racing harness, (five minutes at least strapping in.) She was also the only one to grab my steering wheel, which I found incredibly rude, unexpected, unnerving and dangerous. I couldn't wait to get her out of my car.

The main criticism I would have is that the instructor should have at least spent ten seconds asking me how much driving experience I had.

Should I be grateful that these people are willing to be paid to be instructors in my car???(!) I don't think so! I'm a paying customer, and if they don't like it they can get a job bagging groceries.

 

[Qualitywires.com]

Yeah, I didn't car for the instructors either! I liked my 2nd one I had in the car..he wasn't acting like he knew it all. The others were pretty pissy people and wouldn't let me drive my car like it should be. I felt like stopping in the middle of the track to kick them out!

 

[slaughterj]

In my LONG thread, I noted that I was extremely dissatisfied with the Skip Barber school's instruction, but that as part of the $700 VOI7 registration fee, it will save me a great deal of money in the future as I had the opportunity to learn that I do not want to ever attend such a school again. I will stick with Viper Days - no steering wheel grabbing, reasonably consistent instruction from one instructor to another, etc.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Some pretty big leaps. What driving school was offered at VOI?
These instructors were there to keep our bodies from being damaged. And to keep the activity organized.

Blame an instructor for spinning the car you were driving, interesting point of view. Who had control of the brake and throttle? If you do not understand the instructors suggestions let them know? It is called communication which takes two. If you think driving on the Speedway or autocross was a driving school you are not even close! Trailbrake has its place but in the wrong turn and you will spin because the rear wheels lose to much grip.

And if the instructor said nothing perhaps you were doing a good job? And there were no cars behind you to wave bye. I sure you all remember the instructor taking over the review mirror? I think the few of you with complaints expected a driving school? Take a moment and think about the event. Driver with no skill to race car drivers in cars prepared and some with old tires and old brake fluid. This is quite a mix of driving level and closing speeds. The instructors were there to make passing safe and the activity accident free if possible. Think about how many cars and drivers were on that Speedway. How many accidents?

How many Viper Days have you been experienced? See any off road trips, spins or crashes? Do not take this wrong Viper Days is the best run Open Track event ,but Pushing cars at the drivers or cars limit makes for potential problems. These instructors were there for our safety.

 

[Tom and Vipers]

My point is this, the instructor wanted me to drive like he drives. He was not interested in working with the way I drive.

I like to control the car with the brake during trail braking.

He didn't.

I would say that 3/4 of the instructors I had (at least 4) asked some questions as to my experience.

I can tell you this. An instructor's first responsibility is make sure nothing bad happens. Unless a driver is doing something dangerous, the instructor should try to work with the driver's skills.

Some drivers do not trail brake, others do. For an instructor to try to change a driver is not safe.

Further, some instructors give instruction to the degree that you could drive your car around the course with your eyes closed. I have encountered these types of instructors in the past and I have found that the best thing to do is shutup, don't think, and do what you're told.

I don't thing that is good, but that is what is necessary to deal with these chatterboxes.

I believe a good instructor will evaluate a driver's lap and pick 1 or 2 things to work on. Anything more will overload the average driver's ability to assimilate. Even worse with a novice.

And of course, again, a broken record, no practice on snap recovery. I think that is a serious problem with Viper and all owners much try to get some kind of experience here.

Personally, I am going to scout out parking lots that I might be able to use for this purpose.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Hi Jane,

1. Suggest doing as much autocrossing as possible. It is a great way to get learn how to practice car control in a low cost and safe venue.
2. Skip Barber has a program called "car control". In this program most of the time is spent sliding and recovery. Not in Vipers but the experience is quite useful. I have been in this program with students who were professional race car drivers. One guy came in third GT3 at the Rolex 24 race. This program is a lot of work. Their 2 day Performance Driving or 3 day racing school is required before you can take "car control"
3. Join the N.CA. VCA, next year, in their Skip Barber "VCA" school. Lots of seat time in their Vipers.

 

[Janni]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder:
Hi Jane,
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who's Jane????????????

 

[slaughterj]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ewave:
and they all pretty much assumed I was an rich idiot in a overpowered sports car and that this was my FIRST lap on the track.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They got you pegged from the get-go!

 

[pdmracing]

Some of the instructors were not instructors with Skip Barber at all. One of the female instructors had never driven on a racetrack in her life. She worked for BMW drivers training center & was acontract worker. When I went out I figured there was no use in telling the instructor of my previous experience(which I have plenty)so I played dumb & just let them do their thing. The first two Real skip barber guys who actually worked @ lime rock , were complimentary actually very informative & gave the same line info as the other. The so called BMW instructor was combative & said my line was all wrong, & that if I listened to her I would be much faster. When I told her her info was contrary to the other instructors she copped a real attitude. At the end of my ride when she was finished blowing me out, I asked her the time honored question " when is the last time you won a race?" she replied that she had never been in a race....ever. Funny I told her , that I had won three races in the month of September alone & she could see the labor day race @ Vir on speedvision 11/3.Have a nice day!

The point is if you are going to put instructors in every car, they better know what they are doing. They are being paid handsomely for their time, this is not a volunteer effort. I know for a fact how difficult High powered car owners can be when it comes to taking instruction, but that is no excuse for the erratic behavior. They are professionals & need to act the part.

 

[RC Viper]

I to had concerns with the instructors but I think we might all learn a lesson here about the way that the event was set up.
This was clearly one of those lose-lose situations.

-There was no requirement to perform even basic safety
checks on your car. I saw several people with chairs
in the back of their Viper. Lug nuts and tire pressures
were not checked. It would have been relatively simple
to ask people if they had checked tire pressures and
lug nut torque while we were in line waiting to go on
track for the first time. If the answer was no then they
should have been done prior to entering the track.
A few people standing by the track with a good size air
tank and a few torque wrenches would have fixed the issue.

-I would have much preferred going out for 15-20 laps once
instead of going out five time for three laps. I think
this is where a lot of the problems with instructors
originated. They were not in your car long enough to
assess if you knew how do drive or help you with the line.
I know I would have had to wait longer to get on track,
but I think this would have made for a better experience
for the driver and instructor. The safety checks I
referenced above could have been accomplished during the
down time. The instructors spent way too much time
getting into and out of cars. In addition it created the
traffic jam situation with so many cars coming out of the pit
into the first turn.

-When we signed up for VOI we were asked what driving experiece
we had. I did not have a single instructor ask me this. In
fact, when I tried to volunteer the information my instructor
rudely told me he did not care.


I must say that I have empathy with the instructors. Jumping into over a hundred cars with unknown drivers is a scaring thing.

Having said that, I agree with everyone that the quality of the instruction was spotty at best. I had one instructor tell me that I needed to use "progressive" braking and that if I could smell the brakes when I got out of the car that I was hitting them too hard. He said that the Viper's brakes could not take this treatment. Say what???

 

[Birvini]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom and Vipers:
My point is this, the instructor wanted me to drive like he drives. He was not interested in working with the way I drive.

I like to control the car with the brake during trail braking.

He didn't.

I would say that 3/4 of the instructors I had (at least 4) asked some questions as to my experience.

I can tell you this. An instructor's first responsibility is make sure nothing bad happens. Unless a driver is doing something dangerous, the instructor should try to work with the driver's skills.

Some drivers do not trail brake, others do. For an instructor to try to change a driver is not safe.

Further, some instructors give instruction to the degree that you could drive your car around the course with your eyes closed. I have encountered these types of instructors in the past and I have found that the best thing to do is shutup, don't think, and do what you're told.

I don't thing that is good, but that is what is necessary to deal with these chatterboxes.

I believe a good instructor will evaluate a driver's lap and pick 1 or 2 things to work on. Anything more will overload the average driver's ability to assimilate. Even worse with a novice.

And of course, again, a broken record, no practice on snap recovery. I think that is a serious problem with Viper and all owners much try to get some kind of experience here.

Personally, I am going to scout out parking lots that I might be able to use for this purpose.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

EXACTLY!!!

 

[Tom and Vipers]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RC Viper:


-I would have much preferred going out for 15-20 laps once
instead of going out five time for three laps.
-When we signed up for VOI we were asked what driving experiece
we had. I did not have a single instructor ask me this. In
fact, when I tried to volunteer the information my instructor
rudely told me he did not care.


I had one instructor tell me that I needed to use "progressive" braking and that if I could smell the brakes when I got out of the car that I was hitting them too hard. He said that the Viper's brakes could not take this treatment. Say what???

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

[Tom and Vipers]

Oops, forgot my words.

Actually, I told the instructors to let me back in about 4-5 laps because I was over heating the car and brakes.

The brakes start to smell at about 4 laps and engine temp was starting to go 225-235 deg.

I have stock brakes. What seems to happen is that the rotors get blue spots and then patches of pad seem to start depositing on the rotor. In no time, they will craze and in PA, they will not pass safety inspection - even if they are still OK for the track.

So after 4-5 laps and the car all hot and stinking, I started driving out of the infield and did a nice 35 mph cool down lap around the perimeter road. This really cooled the car down. I would think that you would have to sit for 30 min to get the car that cool.

So in about 10 min I was ready to go again!

 

[Fast Viper Dan]

I have gone thru skip barber driving schools as well, and have had good instructors. That was with only 15 students, and the regular instructors at there home track.
I wanted to "test drive" the SRT10 to decide if I want one
(on order). My first impression of the SRT10, The head auto cross driving instructor is an a$$. Handling, same thing. Do I want to buy the car I have on order? Don't know anything about the way it drives or handles. All I do know about it is "slow down, easy, lighten up, back off". Well, I hope I have a chance to drive one before the one I ordered shows up.
Not all driving instructors are bad, in fact most are eager to teach you to be the best that you can be. Just stay away from the head honcho that knows every thing about driving and nothing about customer relations.
Fast Viper Dan, in a GTS, SRT ?

 

[treynor]

As a data point, I did only the autocross, and I had the same instructor for both the Neon and SRT rides. He was polite, reasonably informative, and never grabbed the wheel or the brake. The fact that I was 0.4 seconds off the fastest time may have had something to do with it -- but then again, I got the Neon pretty sideways on one of the laps and my instructor never twitched. I've also attended the Skip Barber "Viper car control" day outside of the VOI venue, and the instruction there was consistently excellent.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Ben, Thanks for your post.
(Ben was the quickest student in the VCA Skip Barber School)
Your experience is the same as mine.

Skip Barber's role at VOI7

Speedway
Primary Objectives:
1.0 Safety
1.1 Staging
1.1 Track entry
1.2 Driver Accident Prevention
1.3 Passing
1.4 Track Exit

2.0 Organization:
2.1 Pre-staging
2.2 Staging
2.3 Return to staging
2.4 etc.

Hotel Parking Autocross events.
A. Timed lower track in Vipers. Event with NO instructor in your car, or their car if you did not ship your car.
a. Organize a safe event
b. Course layout and safety
c. Drivers meeting, safety and track layout
d.. course maintaince(reposition cones)
e.. record and report driver time for awards

B. Neon upper course, Timed event with an in car instructor, DC's car.
1. Organize a safe event
2. Course layout and safety
3. Drivers meeting layout and safety.
4. Help drivers maneuver the course safely while keeping cones in place.
5. Help drivers improve their lap times.

C. SRT-10 Drive, no timing, same as
Same as B. above except a non timed event.

D. Competition Coupe Drive, no timing, no instructor, same as B.
same. Without 5.

General:
To keep the event on schedule it is critical to keep the cone repositioning at a min.

For all events with an instructor, in car, we discussed the specific activity and I followed their advise as much as possible.

Car Safety Check.
Who is responsible?
FYI before my car was put on the transporter The tire pressure was checked and wheel lug bolts re-torqued and checked the fluids including the brake fluid. At the track I stopped at the Michelin trailer and had the tire pressure adjusted to my request, 32psi.

 

[pdmracing]

Fred , I think your missing the point of some of the complaining that's going on, you may have had a good experience, but obviously some of our fellow members don't share your view. I went to skip barber 3 day in 1987 when Bruce Mcginnes (F5000 champ) was my instructor & they were absolute pricks. But they were great instructors & I credit much of my success to their training.I also did the skips car control clinics & many lapping days when I lived near Lime Rock.
I agree with you that the 1st & most important job of the instructors @ Nashville was to keep everyone alive & off the wall. But the inconsistencies between instructors is appalling, & that's just what I experienced. You would think for the money the club & DC paid for Skip Barbers services they could have had a unified front. How many of those instructors had actually driven on that track? How many ever set foot in a 400+HP car before that day? Its their job to know the student , the track & the car. I have done many ride & drives for many manufacturers & after the above mentioned goals the next objective was to keep the CUSTOMER SATISFIED! & judging from some of the comments I have heard , people are less than satisfied. This wasn't some half baked drivers ed with non paid instructors, this was a multi million dollar event where all the help was paid, when you get a paycheck for what you do, you are a pro, & when you are a pro you need to act like one , no matter how big a ****** is in the seat next to you. It sounds like Skip Barber lost a lot of potential customers this weekend, which is really too bad, because they have a great program.