SRT on BBC Top Gear

Guibo

Enthusiast
Joined
Feb 28, 2001
Posts
205
Reaction score
0
Autostream, I think you still don't get it. You haven't driven a C6, so you're basing your opinion on one program's difficulty with the C6's controls. Well, what makes TopGear any better than the dozens/hundreds of other publications or shows out there? What makes their point of view more legitimate? If anything, that "dragrace" between cars driven by different drivers should tell you something's seriously misguided about their "testing" procedures; did you know that several years ago, they had a similar test with a Viper, Caterham, Lotus, Porsche, and TVR Cerbera 4.2? Yeah, no kidding. They again had different drivers in all cars, and who was in the Cerbera? None other than TVR's own John Ravenscroft, the man behind their engine design and development, and who happens to race TVR's; turns out, that Cerbera 4.2 wasn't even standard anyway, but they never mentioned it...

Why are you so willing to be spoonfed their opinions when their compatriots, the Daily Telegraph, described the Corvette's shifter action as "fingertip light"? Not once did the Telegraph mention any difficulty with operating the clutch.

Some more comments about the C6 to consider:
"Once off the line, the bored out V8 delivers gobs of torque all across the rev band. The tranny's ratios are also perfectly matched to engine output with shorter, easier throws than before."
---Motorweek

"The shorter-throw shifter is a welcome improvement and works much better than the C5’s. The shifts come easier and more quickly compared to the more bulky feel of the C5, which sometimes could remind you of a ’67 Chevelle bracket racer. Clutch takeup in the C6 is also quite a bit smoother, and with a lot less pedal effort."
---AutoWeek, 8/9/04

"Where the old car felt like an ill-fitting superhero costume, the new car feels tailored, taut, and less ridiculous. A shorter shifter and lighter clutch-pedal effort make gearchanges a pleasure."
---C&D, 9/04

"The optional automatic transmission is a willing player, and well programmed to provide firm and timely shifts. The standard six-speed manual, however, is the big shocker here. The clutch is smoother and lighter, and the shift feel is — dare we say — 'Miata-like' in its snick-snick shift quality. Even the shift knob is perfectly shaped."
---edmunds.com, 9/14/04

"Clutch take-up is considerably lighter than on the C5 Corvette and the 400 bhp at 6000 rpm and 400 lb.-ft. of torque peaking at 4400 rpm can be easily modulated through the drive-by-wire throttle. The C6 is quite docile at low speeds thanks to this smooth delivery of engine output. Only two aspects of the Tremec T56 6-speed manual gearbox rate criticism: The shifter's precise action doesn't like to be hurried and the 1st-to-4th skip-shift seems to be most active when you're on your best behavior, i.e., short-shifting under moderate acceleration. Drivers with a heavy foot or those with the patience to wait out the skip-shift's window of operation are rewarded with unimpeded upshifts."
---R&T, 9/04

But Road & Track took it a step further:
"Perhaps a touch heavier clutch and a bit more bark in the exhaust would raise the excitement quotient in everyday driving."

They're complaining that the C6's clutch is too light.

Now, after reading all this, what makes you think GM hasn't substantially improved both the clutch and shifter of the C6 compared to the C5? Quite obviously they have. But you go ahead believe whatever Hamsterboy Hammond tells you. Personally, I find it hard to believe that R&T's test editors have superhuman strength. Of all the journalists, they (and edmunds.com) are generally the easiest on test cars. Yet look at how quickly the C6 shifted through the gears under full acceleration, compared with some other cars with very slick transmissions, in that graph I posted. You still haven't explained that.
 

Autostream

Enthusiast
Joined
Jan 16, 2004
Posts
93
Reaction score
0
I went over my thoughts on the graph... I never said the linkage couldnt be fast, I'm sure Jesse Ventura could shift faster than the Hamster. Just that it required MORE brutality than the NSX to get the same shifting speeds.

And all your hard work cut and pasting isnt making a point because you are only seeing what you want to.

Car and Driver (Sept. 1993 pg.54) described the C4's transmission refinement as, "The shifter is heavy, and everything feels chunky."
They went on to say, "Tremendous chatter in clutch and grinding noises coming from transmission."
Automobile Mag said in July, 1997 about the C5, "...audible clicks and clanks from the drivetrain...."

All your highlited words above are comparisons to the old 'clunky' C5 tranny.
I agree, it's def 'better' than the old, but top gear was comparing it to its current rivals. GM always seems to be a few steps behind the rest of the world in terms of refinement.
Some things may never change
 

GR8_ASP

Enthusiast
Joined
May 28, 1998
Posts
5,637
Reaction score
1
As you are seeing what you want Autostream. I read through the comments and most are not a C5 to C6 comparison but a review of the C6 alone.When someone state the clutch may even be too light it is not a comparison. If someone else comes along and says the clutch is, like most American vehicles, heavy and imprecise, he is just referencing his past and not providing a true evaluation.

You can keep coming back like the energizer bunny. But in the end I don't give a [******] what the they say. When I see a biased piece, whether it is on cars or the economy or whatever, I call it out as biased. If the shoe fits ...

Most British literature would be sold at the supermarket here. That should tell you about its authenticity.
 

Guibo

Enthusiast
Joined
Feb 28, 2001
Posts
205
Reaction score
0
I went over my thoughts on the graph... I never said the linkage couldnt be fast, I'm sure Jesse Ventura could shift faster than the Hamster. Just that it required MORE brutality than the NSX to get the same shifting speeds.
How much more brutality are we talking about here? 1%? 2%? Can you even measure it? Maybe R&T and the like should have a section in their Road Test spec sheet called "Shifting Brutality Index for Hamsters"?

What you did say was:
"The C6's WORST feature is its transmission. And it's always been the Vette's achilles heel. The mags have constantly complained about it in the past."

Yeah, but that was in the past. Why not look at the here and now, guy? If the C6's WORST feature is its transmission, and one guy goes so far as to say that shifting gears is "a pleasure," and another says it has the "snick-snick quality" of a Miata, well, how bad can the C6 really be? (In case you didn't catch it, that was likening the shift action to a car with a very slick shifter, not only talking about the vast improvement over the C5.) You and the TopGear crew have a lot in common: You like to live in the past.

Your explanation for the graph amounts to squat. You haven't got anymore of an idea of the effort it takes to shift a C6 compared to an NSX than anyone else who hasn't driven either car. It's just unsubstantiated guesswork. Especially in light of what R&T said about its testing procedures:
"Road & Track has always resisted the temptation to simply pound out the best possible numbers, come hell or high water. If I can manage, say, a 6.0-second 0-60 mph run only by crunching gearshifts and slipping the clutch until it stinks, am I doing you any favors? Not if you buy that model and are angered to find that in reality, 6.5 sec. is more like it for any driver who respects machinery (which you do if you're paying for it)."

Notice how they say "always resisted the temptation..." They didn't say "Except when we're testing Corvettes." Nor did they say they give any preferential treatment to the NSX. So your Jesse Ventura theory doesn't fly. With that in mind, and looking at the graph of how quickly and nearly seamlessly the C6 shifts, you should get an idea about the "validity" of that TopGear "test."
 

Autostream

Enthusiast
Joined
Jan 16, 2004
Posts
93
Reaction score
0
So in the mag that said the C6 has a 'snick,snick' quality tranny, what was its critism? If its tranny was its pro, i'm more than curious as to what they thought was its con...?
 

Guibo

Enthusiast
Joined
Feb 28, 2001
Posts
205
Reaction score
0
Not that it's of any relevance here (unless you want to compare it against your TopGear litmus test), but here goes:


"The jury's still out on the new headlamps, though. The look is a slight bit fussy to our eyes. The back end looks like a C5 **** after careful liposuction. The new look is tight, but we can't help but wonder why Chevy didn't follow the latest trend toward 'retro' style, and bring back more styling cues from the past...

The steering doesn't have quite the intimate feel of some of the Corvette's competitors, but most drivers will never find fault with it...

Our only gripe with the cockpit is with the button clusters that flank the aforementioned gauges. They're almost totally hidden by the steering wheel rim, and not exactly lined up with it, either."


God forbid 6 different sources would say anything contrary to that Holy Grail of honest automotive journalism, TopGear. I'll concede that if you're 98 lbs and built like a hamster, you might just have trouble with such a car. Or any car. Guess that's what automatics are for...
 
OP
OP
N

Neil - UK

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 3, 2000
Posts
3,639
Reaction score
0
Location
ENGLAND
New series starts in 15 days, still not sure at the moment when the SRT footage will air, so there's a few more weeks to endure this thread :)
 

Autostream

Enthusiast
Joined
Jan 16, 2004
Posts
93
Reaction score
0
Guibo, do you agree with the steering 'feel' because it was written by a supossedly 'unbiased' magazine or disagree cuz you group yourself into the 'most drivers' category
 

Autostream

Enthusiast
Joined
Jan 16, 2004
Posts
93
Reaction score
0
Sunday, October 24 is the next show.
And its not just this thread that is enduring:

the NSX, the NSX-R and NSX-S are jokes - slow as hell...no way they even come close to any of those cars. the whole thing is a joke.
-from the all-knowing vette forums.
From an NSX website
 

Guibo

Enthusiast
Joined
Feb 28, 2001
Posts
205
Reaction score
0
Guibo, do you agree with the steering 'feel' because it was written by a supossedly 'unbiased' magazine or disagree cuz you group yourself into the 'most drivers' category
If a significant number of journalists (real ones) mention it, then there's a good chance the C6 lacks some steering feel. But wait...what does that have to do with straightline acceleration and the C6's performance over some other cars driven? I'll help you out: NOTHING.
One source takes the C6 to task over its shifter and clutch. Six others say the exact opposite. Now, on what basis should we give anymore weight to the one review? Is it because we should stick to our import fanboy snobbery and not give the C6 a fair shake?

From a Vette forum (by a C5 owner):
The bad part about the interior is the design -- I was expecting a better appearance than the C5 and was very disappointed. The painted trim of the center console looks cheap. Even the salesman, who was doing the selling, mentioned it. I actually prefer the "all black" look of the C5 to the C6. It's OK, but in general nothing to write home about...
The radio and HVAC cluster looks really cheap. Everything is now touch screen -- think bad ATM...
The color scheme and layout of the touch screen is God awful, as is the resolution (pixels)...
The heads-up display...the old one was more readable in bright sunlight, and your head could be left or right a bit without things disappearing...
Now, for the bad part. The styling blows, in my humble opinion (writing as a graphic designer and an architect who should know something about design). The unique look is gone, replace by a cartoon...
In profile, the car looks like Godzilla bent one of those plastic Japanese movie cars up at the windshield...
The shifter is terrific. Shorter throws, much, much more accurate, without being heavy like the typical market shifter for the C5. Absoultely one of the best features of the new car. Pedal placement hasn't changed -- still terrific for heel and toe. Clutch seems lighter, more smooth, and more progressive."

"Absolutley one of the best features of the new car"??? Obviously, the guy is lying. How dare he contradict Hammond? Sacrilege!


Asked you before: Can you name any other testing organization which you consider to be practicing honest journalism that uses different drivers to "test" different cars in a straight line? Which one is that?
 

Guibo

Enthusiast
Joined
Feb 28, 2001
Posts
205
Reaction score
0
Sunday, October 24 is the next show.
And its not just this thread that is enduring:

the NSX, the NSX-R and NSX-S are jokes - slow as hell...no way they even come close to any of those cars. the whole thing is a joke.
-from the all-knowing vette forums.
From an NSX website


Oh feckin' jesus. If you're going to ***** around your theory about the C6 allegedly being beaten to within an inch of its life to get those times (and somehow the NSX is NOT?), why don't you include the other comments in that thread??:

"The NSX is my pick, but in the 1/4 mile, with a great driver, the vette should dominate."

"On the Corvette Forum alone, there are hundreds of guys that can show you stacks of time slips in the twelves on bone stock C5s.
With the NSX, we don't have enough people who GO to the drag strip (the NSX is not a drag car), to make a fair comparison.
We can, however, go by the magazine times since those represent pro drivers testing the car for performance. How many of THOSE times are in the 12s? Not meny.
When you state that 'on average, the NSX is obviously a faster drag car than the Corvette C5' you sound pretty crazy, just to let you know..."

"I've never owned a Corvette, I do own an NSX so obviously I made my choice, but take the British auto journalists with a grain of salt. They absolutely bash anything American and always have. I seriously think they are some of the most overtly biased 'media' types out there."

"I agree with Big Nate. The overstated Britts bash the USA way too much. the eurotrash really comes out in the interview. I have traveled to England many,many times in my life and the impression I'm always left with is one of disdain for anything American."

"The drag race had four different drivers."

"It would have been nice if they had given the times of the quarter mile race. I have a feeling they pulled a mid 13 in the vette. C&D TV ran a 12.7 @ 113 MPH. No stock NSX can touch that MPH. Even a comptech SC would be close. I know someone who just took their 92 CTSC to the strip and ran a 12.7 @ 110."

"I do not understand why the reviewers kept knocking the spring design; unless it’s simply a cheap attempt to make the design seem archaic to those who don’t know better."
*cough!* Autostream? *cough!*

"I was ecstatic when I saw the video, but truly do believe the C6 wasn't pushed as hard as it could've been when they dropped the clutch.
I do know this, Clarkson and former host Tiff Needel are very biased. You need to take some of the things they say with a grain of salt."

"I have no question with equal drivers and starts, the C6 would leave a NSX in the dust."

"just saw MotorTrend mag tests on C6.
12.7@112mph There's no way any stock nsx will pull that time."

"Question: Doesn't the C6 have traction control? Wouldn't that have prevented wheelspin?"
"I believe so. My 03' ZO6 had traction control and a 'competitive' mode that allowed additional wheelspin, but kept the stability control portion active."

"Of course the show was biased! Top Gear is ALWAYS biased and opinionated (and unapologetically pro Brit)."

"What you have to bear in mind is that Jeremy Clarkson is paid to be provocative. He is a journalist that writes on just about any topic and is viewed by some of us Brits to be really amusing with his off-beat humour which he uses to 'send up' anything and anyone.
Don't forget the young guy on Top Gear that was doing the driving (not Stig - very respected Auto Test Driver) originally ridiculed the Corvette but later ended up defending it against Clarkson - this again is usual in this programme which i think most people over here watch for its amusing entertainment rather than serious test comparisons.
Forget the bias - in their time all of these cars have been slated by Jeremy.
Don't take us Brits so seriously!"

"Can I just ask a question? Are all car shows in the US completely factual accounts? Documentaries with the base facts presented, nothing else?
Top Gear isn't like that. It is an entertainment show.
We do have car shows that are less biased and more factual, but they are not as popular. People watch TV to be entertained. If you want to know which is the best car (for you - best for one driver isn't always best for another!!) then you don't decide based on a TV show or a magazine article - you go drive the cars and decide for yourself!
Still, great to see the NSX do so well, many TV viewers over here are also daft enough to believe that entertainment shows are more factual than they are so it won't have harmed my colleagues' views of my car of choice!"

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37048&page=3


"All aluminum double wishbone vs. leafsprings?"

LOL.



After reading all of that, you still don't think TopGear is more about sensational entertainment rather than honest journalism? You'd think the Brits on that forum would know what they're talking about...But apparently, you know better than they do!
 

Autostream

Enthusiast
Joined
Jan 16, 2004
Posts
93
Reaction score
0
One source takes the C6 to task over its shifter and clutch. Six others say the exact opposite.

Yea amazing isnt it. The british source loves the britsh stuff and the american sources love the american stuff. So maybe you proved the bias thing a lot further than you intended. or did you? Lets get some impartial sources and have another go at this, at another time. Cuz it will never end. Bias really cant be proved or disproved, it can however, just be indicted and defended.

More importantly, wierder things have just happened....
The new Porsche 997 is Faster in both 0-60 AND 1/4 mile than the C6 (according to car and driver)
How can this be? the Corvette is 80lb lighter! The corvette has 45hp more too!

They must be biased...
 

fluffy

Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 1, 2003
Posts
410
Reaction score
0
Location
Merrimack, NH
Yea amazing isnt it. The british source loves the britsh stuff and the american sources love the american stuff.

...

The new Porsche 997 is Faster in both 0-60 AND 1/4 mile than the C6 (according to car and driver)
How can this be? the Corvette is 80lb lighter! The corvette has 45hp more too!

They must be biased...
So first you say that Car and Driver likes American cars, implying that their statements favor the corvette, and yet in the same post you provide proof that they don't by their treatment of the Porsche. So which is it? Do American sources love American cars, or do they love German cars?

P.S. A quick online check of Porsche and Chevy's sites would have shown you that the Porsche is in fact 50lbs lighter than the C6.
 

SnakeBitten

Enthusiast
Joined
May 18, 2001
Posts
2,550
Reaction score
0
Ever seen a C&D/R&T/MT article on the DB7, Vantage, Vanquish etc???...Nothing but glowing praise and very little of any British bashing....As a matter of fact most of these American mags have a reputation of lauding BMW/foreign cars over American cars...When they test a BMW 328 vs a Caddy CTS they give you the real deal...The BMW is the better car...I dont think the American automotive press is anywhere near as anti-British/Europe as the Brits are of American products...I like Jeremy but sometimes you just want to hear the facts and not someone biased opinion of a product...They way they put down the Vette I expected that it would be universally panned..But its the exact opposite in the press...Proof positive of extreme bias on Top Gears part.
 

Autostream

Enthusiast
Joined
Jan 16, 2004
Posts
93
Reaction score
0
Fluffy,
I was being sarcastic. I believe C&D's test results to be accurate. Their goal is to extract the maximum potential out of a vehicle.
Take this extreme hypothetical example. Get a notoriously hard-to-launch car and give it to C&D. If they make 100 passes and say the vehicle is consistently around say 13.0 - 13.2 seconds to the 1/4. Then one pass out of the 100 by luck is a 12.5. They will report that even though it would be extremely hard to replicate.
Topgear by comparison I feel is more realistic. They get 4 semi-experienced drivers on a regular road. And just launch as if it were their own car.
I agree if John Force were put in both the Vette and the NSX, the Vette would win at least 99/100 times. If it were to the half mile- the vette would clobber the *** car 100/100 times.

As a further example, one of my daily drivers is an E55 which with its automatic and soft suspension, makes VERY consistent launches easily. Now C&D tell us a 996tt will beat it to the 1/4 everytime. BUT, 9 out of 10 drivers that i've raced on the street will NEVER beat me. Because in the REAL WORLD- with its AWD and excessive wheel hops akin to all 911's, it is one of the hardest cars to launch.
This is why I dont think the Topgear test is some major conspiracy to trash the Vette. Like i said b4, it is well known that the NSX has always had low low 60ft times couple that with shifting the Chevy with .6 shifts and it sounds very believable.
ON the plus side, it did very very well on the lap too.. If they were fudging results cuz of american hatred like you guys as saying, why not put the vette further down on the list?

Snake- American media is VERY VERY careful to criticise any car company's car because they are the ones who pays their paychecks. You dont make fun of your boss, do you? Top gear doesnt have this problem at all- they have zero ads or commercials. Which is why I take the US mags and shows with a grain of salt. They talk all the time about how the car company whisks them away for a week of first class accomodations while they test their car. They treat them like a king. So you too would be hesitant to make bad comments about the product- since next time you might not get an invite.
Impartiality at its worst.

Clarkson doesnt like american cars as a whole because 'they are poorly made out of very cheap materials'
And you really cant disagree with him. Take an easy example, the escalade. Its priced to compete with a landrover, yet underneath its a $30k tahoe with a wood steering wheel. And the dash is made from the crappiest plastic you ever did see- like out of a $9k Kia. I dont want to get into another argument here, but you have to see where he's coming from. The brits always cared more about luxury, the Italians were high on style, Germans- engineering, and Americans, hp and torque.

Different strokes for different folks but not some purpetuating conspiracy theory
 

onerareviper

Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 18, 2001
Posts
2,457
Reaction score
0
Location
Pittsburgh, PA, USA
The brits always cared more about luxury, the Italians were high on style, Germans- engineering, and Americans, hp and torque.

Wow. We finally agree on something... I would like to add that American's are more concerned with price. On pure performance, the C6 is right there with the $100,000+ Porsches, $150,000+ Ferraris, $100,000+ Aston Martins. This is why I can 'deal with' cheaper interior materials. I don't think the C6 is horrible (decent carpets/decent leather seats/leather wrapped wheel), and is by no means comparible to a Kia. I would put it somewhere in the middle. But yes, it is no Porsche/Ferrari/Aston when it comes to interior. I will also agree that the exterior body materials are much cheaper to produce, although they are very functional and don't rust/dent. Would I rather have an aluminum body and full leather interior? H*ll yes... But the reality is a C6 can be had for $40,000 (at least once the hoopla wears off). The invoice on this car is $38,400 (at least in the USA). Let's all say that together - $38,400. 3 Vette for 1 911 Porche, 4-5 Vettes for 1 Ferrari, etc... So is it HONEST journalism to compare 'interior materials' to cars costing 3-5 times as much? If so, I can't wait to go to the Kia dealer and b*tch about how the Kia Rio's interior is inferior to the 3 series BMW. Something tells me I would be laughed out of the dealership. All joking aside, I would rate the C6 interior comparible to the average $30,000 car. Not quite up to par with other cars in it's price range, but you're paying for the performance.
 

Autostream

Enthusiast
Joined
Jan 16, 2004
Posts
93
Reaction score
0
I agree One. personally I would rather pay a little more money for quality materials, but there's no arguing its extraordinary value for dollar.

Now how do you explain the Viper SRT?
 

SnakeBitten

Enthusiast
Joined
May 18, 2001
Posts
2,550
Reaction score
0
I agree One. personally I would rather pay a little more money for quality materials, but there's no arguing its extraordinary value for dollar.

Now how do you explain the Viper SRT?


Easy....The Viper plays in the exotic league unlike the Vette...Check out the cars that perform like the Viper and see how much more they cost...The Viper is the bargain exotic..Its and extraordinary "performance" value for dollar in the exotic/supercar arena :smirk:

Let me guess. You dont think the Viper is an exotic or even a supercar right? Just thought Id give you a headstart :2tu:
 

Guibo

Enthusiast
Joined
Feb 28, 2001
Posts
205
Reaction score
0
Yea amazing isnt it. The british source loves the britsh stuff and the american sources love the american stuff. So maybe you proved the bias thing a lot further than you intended. or did you? Lets get some impartial sources and have another go at this, at another time. Cuz it will never end. Bias really cant be proved or disproved, it can however, just be indicted and defended.

Thing is, you're doing a terrible job of defending their bias. On top of that, you make it quite clear that you are anything but an impartial observer (what with you being an acknowledged "proud Porsche driver" and all). Against your selective amnesia, let's take a look at some points in this thread:
1) You claim the only way C&D or those other mags could've gotten those times for the C6 was to beat the piss out of it. You insinuate that they (mysteriously) don't do the same for the NSX; you also insinuate (on both forums) that there's some clutchless speedshifting going on. Despite the fact that they've explained explicitly that they don't do that in testing their cars.
2) You copy and paste here a discussion from the NSX forums, slamming the Corvette owners for being just a bunch of whiners, and try to pass it off as legitimate. Yet, in that very same thread, plenty of NSX owners themselves will state the NSX has a tough time beating even the C5, and that a C6 would beat it hands down. (And no, that's not just among NSX owners who think cars can't have both aluminum wishbones and leafsprings.)
3) Even in head to head tests where the NSX beats the C5 off the line, the C5 is still quicker at the end of the quarter mile.

Now, go ahead and tell me you're not being biased. Face it guy, you're nothing but biased. Unless you care to prove that C&D beats on their cars (you'll have to do the same for Motor Trend: they got the same exact 0-60 and 1/4 mile times). Unless you care to prove that they don't do the same for the NSX. If you haven't got the proof, just come right out and admit you're pulling BS outta yer ass. Because at this point, that's all it is.

The new Porsche 997 is Faster in both 0-60 AND 1/4 mile than the C6 (according to car and driver)
How can this be? the Corvette is 80lb lighter! The corvette has 45hp more too!

They must be biased...

Simply amazing. You think a car's performance comes down only to power and weight? Let's step back a bit. Previously, you said the NSX's weight disribution allows it to get off the line easier (which is true). Cannot the same, then, be said for the Porsche? It's got even MORE of its mass over the driven rear wheels. So it's not all that surprising, now is it?
Also, let's not forget a little thing called GEARING. You've heard of it, I presume? Apparently not. Because you would have realized that the Porsche has a pretty substantial gearing advantage over the Corvette:
1st gear: 32% shorter
2nd gear: 13% shorter
3rd gear: 13% shorter
4th gear: 29% shorter
No doubt the 997's .3 second advantage to 30 mph is largely a result of its better weight distribution for launching, combined with its 32% shorter first gear. 1st gear in the 997 is good for 40 mph, which it reaches .5 second quicker than the C6. But the Corvette beats the 997 to 100 mph and then again to 150 mph, despite having given up half a second in getting to 40 mph. Oh dear, the C6 is so slow! Use your head, and it won't seem so mystical.
Also keep in mind that it was C&D that got the WRX to 60 in 5.4, the Forester 2.5XT to 60 in 5.3, and the Mercedes SL600 to 60 in 3.6. These times have never been duplicated in any other magazine, so it's best to wait for a head to head test before we start saying the 997 is definitively quicker than the C6.


And on your theory about bias in American car mags...As far as I can remember, practically any test involving a BMW vs domestic cars has the Bimmer winning. Despite the fact that Ford (Jaguar, Volvo, Mazda, etc) and GM (Chevrolet, Cadillac, GMC, Pontiac, etc) have way more advertising than BMW has. Remember that article in Motor Trend called "Speed Wars", which was ostensibly a comparison to find the performance car winner? Well, the BMW M3 won over the Z06, mostly on account of its back seats. You might want to open up the Letters section of the current issue, in which a reader asks them why they were biased against the Cadillac STS, claiming it offered less rear legroom than the BMW 5 Series. Motor Trend acknowledged the reader's point, and admitted the STS has about 2 more inches of legroom.
And any comparison with a Ferrari almost always has the Ferrari winning, despite the fact that Ferrari has practically ZERO advertising in these magazines. (If you're a bit fuzzy on this, think back to the C&D comparo with the DB7, 996TT, and 360F1.)

BTW, contrary to your lame comment on the other forum, I don't think TopGear faked the C6 dragrace at all. I think Hammond is legitimately the proverbial 98-lb weakling. And that considering we don't know who was in the other cars (was it John Ravenscroft in the TVR again; or the Stig perhaps?), you cannot claim that the dragrace is representative of what typical, average drivers would experience. Because we simply don't know who was driving. Simple, really.
Which test between the NSX and Porsche 996 are you more likely to believe? TopGear's test, where the 996 finished dead last behind the C6 (which finished a "lonely third"). Or this one, by R&T? With one test driver behind the wheel, testing all of the cars, and showing that the 996 isn't noticeably slower than the NSX at all. In fact, it appears that they'd be dead even.

You must be registered for see images


It'd be nice to get a straight answer out of you. But since you seem to enjoy kissing Clarkson's ass (despite his apparent flip-flopping on Porsches), I'd be very surprised if you could say one has more journalistic integrity than the other. Judging by that R&T result above, do you still think those drivers on the TopGear show were evenly matched? Based on what, exactly?
 

Snakester

Enthusiast
Joined
Dec 4, 2001
Posts
1,775
Reaction score
0
Location
Morgan Hill
Autostream,

Personally I think that the interior and materials on the C6 Corvette and Viper are very good. Not the "best" but fine for someone who doesn't live and die scrutinizing manufacturing materials.

Again I have to come back to the fact that we are talking about performance cars here. Not economy cars, not luxury cars.

The Viper is a $85K convertible that performs similarly on a racetrack to a $300,000 Lamborghini Murcielago. :laugh:

And the $40K Corvette performs surprisingly close to the $120K Porsche 911 Turbo.

And not just in a straight line either.

If you are actually looking for a performance car, and not a luxury car, this value is inescapable.

I've added carbon fiber trim pieces inside, and MGW brushed aluminum gearshift, knobs and trim bits, and it does look better.
But more importantly it's customized to my tastes.
Plus the upgrades didn't cost $20K (or more).

The problem is that British auto journalism has been candidly biased for many years against American cars, and so when Top Gear does it once again I'm not going to stop and reevaluate the dozen or so American tests that have better numbers and better reviews. I'm going just stack up the one biased review alongside all of the previous biased European reviews of well known balanced American performance cars.

If you do not remember, many of the previous American reviews of American cars have been poor, and nitpicky in the past. But when the product evolved and improved, and the flaws and complaints were addressed and fixed, the reviews started reflecting that the American cars were catching up in their weak areas, while keeping their price advantage.

When looked at as TV entertainment, Top Gear is actually amusing. But in the same way that I would not take a satirical comic like MAD magazine's review of a movie seriously, I don't consider the skewed judgement and ridicule of Top Gear as being a real comparative judge of the car's performance and overall value.

The one exception is their track test, because it's pretty obvious that the Stig is trying his best to get the best track time in any car that he drives, and the subjective opinions that ad humor to the rest of the show do not adversely affect this test.

That's not saying by any means that the track test numbers are a fantastic judge by themselves either, because they test these cars in many different conditions, including wet tracks, and with varying levels of driver experience and familiarity with the different cars (which definitely makes a difference).

But at least it's not soley dependent on biased, subjective opinions alone.
 

Guibo

Enthusiast
Joined
Feb 28, 2001
Posts
205
Reaction score
0
LOL. This is classic. And gives you an idea about the worth of Clarkson's words:

"...part of the reason nissans Z cars came so fat and so heavy is cause they were designed for the American market and the American car is as you know an enormous sofa. This one wasn't just designed for the Americans, it was designed by the Americans. To be honest it looks a bit of a mess... But it would cause it's a Japanese car designed in America and the head of a project was an Indian and the engine is French. We have had fusion food before, but its the first fusion car. Think of it as being a raw hamburger curry served in a disinterested way in a bed of garlic ajuis. If your the sort of person that likes to cruise the street annoying everyone with the stereo this car is for you.
...It doesnt take very long to work out that this car has many weak links and the weakest link of all is the engine. First there is the noise and its just a noise and annoying drone and it gets on your nerves. Then there is the performance. They say it will do 0 to 60 in six seconds ... but it never feels that fast. When you look at the 350Z you expect it to be light, sporty and agile, but its not. I was expecting it to be like a MX-5 fun...but its not. not even a little.
What it is is a ton and a half of iron mongry. It's just a muscle car and muscle cars should be fun but it's not. The noise is driving me mad. The hard ride and the effort it takes to drive this car makes it one of the most exhausting cars I have ever come across. The look of the interior is fine, but what is not so good is this [showing the flimsy build quality] I've seen better build quality in an allotment share. There no practicality. The 350 is a 3 out of 10, it could do better."
-- Jeremy Clarkson, Top Gear BBC



"Nissan 350Z has been awarded the illustrious title of ‘Car of Year’ in the 2004 Top Gear Magazine awards. The team of road testers from the magazine, all put their heads together to establish their overall favourite, and the winner was .... the 350Z. The award itself will be presented to Nissan by Jeremy Clarkson and editor Michael Harvey in London on 9 March."
http://www.carpages.co.uk/nissan/nissan_350z_top_gear_car_of_the_year_07_03_04.asp


Honest, legitimate automotive journalism indeed...

(BTW, the 350Z's engine isn't French; it's Japanese, and happens to have been used in some Renaults; the 350Z's designer is an Indian, who got his bachelor's degree in transport design from Coventry University, and his master's degree from the Royal College of Art in London. London and Coventry are, of course, not in America. ;) He may have designed the 350Z at Nissan's US design studio, but it's every bit as much the result of British education as anything else. Wouldn't want to get something like the facts right, eh Jeremy? :D ))
 

Kai SRT10

Enthusiast
Joined
Feb 4, 2004
Posts
1,580
Reaction score
7
Location
Salt Lake City
At the risk of prolonging this thread into the biggest of all time, I'm going to add one more thing to think about.

Look at the prices of Vipers and Corvettes in the UK.
The 77,500 pound price for a new SRT-10 in the UK is the equivalent of almost $140,000 here in the States.

Similarly, the Corvette's 40,000 pound price is about $72,000.

I think that this goes a long way to explain why Clarkson and others whine about fit and finish, cheap materials, and the lack of opulent details in the interior, etc. We look at the Viper and the Corvette as cost-effective performers, but in the UK (for whatever reason) these cars are not quite the bargains that they are here in the States. If I was paying $72,000 for a Corvette (or $140,000 for a Viper), I'd expect more. We in the States take some of the rough edges of these cars for granted, because at the price we are paying, we aren't expecting the dash to be covered in hand stitched Conolley leather. Perhaps at the price that the UK cars cost, Clarkson et. al. aren't really too far out on a limb to be complaining about cheap plastics.

For $30,000 over the base price of the US Corvette, I'd be wanting a bit of burled walnut, billet aluminum, and a few more performance goodies with my Vette. For $60,000 over the base price of the US Viper, I'd be wanting a Moton suspension and the Carbon Concept Car engine in my SRT-10.

I'm not really sure why American sports cars cost so much in the UK. Maybe Chrysler and GM figure that the UK buyers don't realize that there is a big difference between US Dollars and British Pounds.
 
OP
OP
N

Neil - UK

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 3, 2000
Posts
3,639
Reaction score
0
Location
ENGLAND
if you had $140,000 to spend in the USA what new car could you get, except a compe coupe ;) that would be a better comprassion
 

quickysrt

Enthusiast
Joined
Jan 2, 2004
Posts
255
Reaction score
0
Location
virginia beach, va
lol neil you had to take the comp coupe option away :)

for 140,000 i would get an sl600 and mod it.....or a ford gt if i could get it without the mark up.

a gt3 would not be bad niether.
 

Guibo

Enthusiast
Joined
Feb 28, 2001
Posts
205
Reaction score
0
for 140,000 i would get an sl600 and mod it.....or a ford gt if i could get it without the mark up.
'Cept in the UK, the SL600 starts at £98,830. That's $178K USD. The GT3 is a bit cheaper though: £72,750, or $131K USD.


Point well taken, the C6 and SRT-10 aren't the bargains in the UK that they are in the US. But the C6 is still close to a Boxster S (£38,150), and the SRT-10 will still split the difference between a 996 C4S (£69,930) and a 996 TT (£86,000). Frankly, having seen a 996 interior up close and touched its plastic door panels and dash, I'm not at all impressed. IMO, BMW does it better for much cheaper. But then, they're not quite as fast now are they...
 

onerareviper

Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 18, 2001
Posts
2,457
Reaction score
0
Location
Pittsburgh, PA, USA
OK... Great point about the price difference USA to UK. To be honest, I would probably not consider a Base Vette/Viper if I had to pay $72,000/$140,000. Although, it seems the other European make are more expensive as well? Why? We can get a Porsche GT3 for $100,000, and don't SL600 start around $120,000? I always through German cars were cheaper to purchase in Europe?
 

Autostream

Enthusiast
Joined
Jan 16, 2004
Posts
93
Reaction score
0
I wonder how many views and replies it takes to make a thread a record here. Because initially I was arguing with one person, but not its up to three. I am getting tired but will try to clear up some things and answer questions.

The Viper is a budget exotic. An economy supercar. If you want the performance of a supercar without the exotic technology or refinement and finesse and price of its competitors, then the Dodge is for you.
I'll put it to you this way. If you liken the Murci to a rolex: hand built by craftsman, exotic materials, high bling factor. Then the viper is like a timex: basic, functional, yet tells times just as well if not better.


I never said anything about my porsche here, but its cute that you follow me around the internet. And I dont like or dislike the corvette or/nor nsx equally- thats why i am unbiased. I actually loath the 996, i think it was the worst 911 ever. The 997 however, i am very impressed with but thats neither here nor there.

Beating the piss out of a car is relative. Let me put it this way. C&D races cars as if they were rental cars rented under someone elses name (just with lift-throttle shifts and clutching). Top gear seems to race their cars 'as if' they owned them personally- like a real person might do with their car on the street. If I paid my own money for the vette, i'd prolly be doing .6 second shifts too. If I stole it, i'd be out to break schumachers record.
An nsx tranny shifts so easily that it feel less like moving churning gears and more like churning butter. You wouldnt have to manhandle it to get fast shifts. The C6's tranny (in the video) clearly gets stuck in neutral for half the time.

The cutandpaste was showing how anytime the vette is put down, vette owners come up with some conspiracy theory to justify it. The same thing that is gonna happen here if- god forbid the SRT-10 with its 'amazing acceleration and handling' doesnt beat the Noble's time. They'll be some conspiracy how clarkson told the stig to make a ****** lap on purpose!

I know more than anyone that power and weight arent the only factors in draging. But that was the idea in the beggining of this thread- (how could the vette lose with 110hp more than the nsx?) Just goes to show how so many different variable can make a huge difference. As for the weight, I posted what C&D said so who knows.

BMWs do win alot because they simply are great cars. Though their new styling and i-drive- and electrical glitches are giving them a bad name in the press.
Though you are talking about comparison tests where if there are say 6 cars, not all six can come in 1st. Someone has to be at the bottom. But on just one-off test of cars.. They have no problem raving, but when it comes to rants, they do it in such a kiss ass way, that it gets annoying. you really have to read between the lines to see what they are trying to say. They are very skilled writers. Two people could read the same article and one would think they loved it while the other would think they hated it depending on their own personal bias.
Whereas Clarkson just tells it like it is no matter who he ****** off
Let me try to illustrate this point with a few criticism quotes.

MT on H2: "Dating Enviromentalist with it"
Clarkson's translation: "Worst gas mileage of any car, might be cheaper to take a yacht to work"

MT on Montego: "Engine sadly underspec'd"
Clarkson's translation: "Slow as shi*t, if you want to get anywhere faster than walking there, buy something else"

MT on Lacroose: "Dull, derivative styling"
Clarkson's translation: "Uglier than a camel, with gingivitis"

MT on AMGC55: "Steering heavy at low speeds"
Clarkson's translation: "Just running out to 7/11 for milk will also require the purchase of ICY-HOT for your tri-ceps"

MT on Viper RT/10: "punishes slow-reacting and inattentive drivers"
Clarkson's translation: "This car spins so easily you could park it and when you came back it would be facing the other direction"

MT on Viper SRT-10: "much improved on-limit handling behavior and feedback"
Clarkson's translation: "at the limit the old viper was terrible and the new one is slightly less terrible"

Motor Trend: Viper vs FordGT test and they refuse to pick winner. ***? a tough task no doubt, but no where near impossible. especially no tougher than choosing between the GT3rs and 360CS but Clarkson wasnt afraid to do it.

Bottom line is I cant stand these Mags' politically correcting, sugar coating, ass kissing, BS.
Biased or not, I appreciate Clarkson's honestly more than anything.

as for the 350Z, i think you are way off base. Clarkson hates the 350z, there can be no doubt. The magazine picked the car and only asked clarkson to present the award. He's just a columnist in it, not the owner.

finally, the engine IS french. So is the car. And So is nissan. Nissan was bought by renault in the 90's and with french money, the 350z was designed and built. and in america for americans. The engine is 10 years old now and is used in EVERY v6 nissan that fits and most renaults.
fyi
 
Top