SRT on BBC Top Gear

[Autostream]

If what you want is a Viper with training wheels and creature comforts, then go buy a Corvette or a Boxter. It sounds to me that a Viper just doesn't fit your personal tastes. I hope Dodge never makes a Viper that you like.

It looks like you'll understand if Clarkson makes comments about, "... the brute force engineering, and... ...about it being "crude" and a blunderbus."

My Diablo has a light clutch, power steering, Abs, great reliability, and ice cold a/c. Long before Audi.

Its all relative. If thats the case for you, the Murci will be like a Honda civic.

 

[Guibo]

But then where is the normal version? The one that gives you some creature comforts- maybe navigation, a trac computer, a less harsh ride, and costs less? Something to make it more of a daily driver and less like a track car which you say is the case.

Have you not been listening at all? People here are trying to tell you over and over and you just don't get it: The Viper was never meant to have creature comforts, nav/track computer, etc. You're obviously very ignorant about the Viper's history, its whole reason for being. Bad for you, and bad for us for trying to help enlighten you on the matter.

As far as the country of origin's opinions, you have been obviously reluctant with yours. Care to share?

It's pretty obvious to me that the Viper is American despite Chrysler being owned by the Germans. I suppose if the Germans bought the New York Yakees and the Yankees went on to win the World Series, we should therefore say the Germans won the World Series (despite there being no Germans on the winning team)? Or are you prepared to contradict your earlier assertion, that not only do Americans build supercars on the cheap, but so do the Germans?
Just because the 350Z was styled by an Indian-born British national, is built by Japanese workers using a Japanese-designed, -developed, and -built engine, does not make it American. Now, why don't you do like the rest of the TopGear editorial staff, and remove your pucker from Clarkson's ass.


Nice pictures of you driving all of those cars. As noted, none show you at the wheel of a Viper, nevermind at the wheel of someone else's Viper at the limit. But then again, we're talking about the SRT-10 aren't we?

 

[Snakester]

It looks like you'll understand if Clarkson makes comments about, "... the brute force engineering, and... ...about it being "crude" and a blunderbus."

See, that's the point. As a joke it's fine.

But the problem (for you and Clarkson) is that you actually believe that the Viper is lacking because it's design is "missing" the super-high-technology, and added luxury appointments of a couple (far more expensive) European cars.

 

[onerareviper]

I think I proved my point about trolldome.... But in the words of O'Rielly, "We'll let the audience decide".

And for God sake's, please don't show us pictures of 4 automatics (2 luxury cars, 1 SUV, 1 Econo-box) while talking about performance. It is an insult to the Viper community to even post pictures of those cars on our website.

 

[Autostream]

I think I proved my point about trolldome.... But in the words of O'Rielly, "We'll let the audience decide".

What, the Viper crony audience? mmkay......

... please don't show us pictures of 4 automatics (2 luxury cars, 1 SUV, 1 Econo-box) while talking about performance....

those were readily available. I could dig up more, but why?
I dont prefer automatics in performance cars, but your comments are absurd. The second fastest car around the top gear track is an automatic and the MOST powerful car in the world right now is an automatic. So your sarcastic comments have little basis in a country where 90% of cars sold are autos, but most importantly, in the past few years we've seen more high performance cars offered with automatics than ever before. Lambo's, Ferrari's, Porsche Turbo's are offered with autos. Its only a matter of time for the Viper...

 

[Autostream]

Have you not been listening at all? People here are trying to tell you over and over and you just don't get it: The Viper was never meant to have creature comforts, nav/track computer, etc. You're obviously very ignorant about the Viper's history, its whole reason for being. Bad for you, and bad for us for trying to help enlighten you on the matter.

I'm the ignorant one about the car's history?
Let me try this a 3rd way...
I was all for the back to basic philosophy when they brought it out in 1992. It was supposed to be like a modern ac cobra, where you are driving the engine. Where you want pure performance and nothing else to weight you down. no a/c, no power windows-well no windows at all, no roof, no abs, no door handles, etc. All of that stuff adds weight and weight is what kills performance. An engine and a seat, thats all what it was supposed to be. They struggled to keep it cheap by raiding the chrysler parts bin with their dodge stealth mirrors and using a pcm from a 4cyl and a 6cyl together. But all that stuff was good thinking because it kept the cars price to less than HALF of the 911 turbo of the day, and was bigger yet weighed the same and with just as good straight line performance.
Now that is impressive. And I totally loved this concept that only dodge offered (and notice i didnt even complain about the roof,lol)

However, as the years went on, the viper got heavier and fatter. They added more and more of those creature comforts that you say the viper doesnt have. So today, its got windows, door handles, power everything, a real roof, HID's, ABS, motorized pedals. Everything is WASNT supposed to have. And they just added carpeting to the trunk! All of this stuff is hardly a 'back to basics' philosophy. Its getting more and more like a porsche. Which isnt the worst thing, cept that the refinement and quality isnt there alongside it.
12 years later the 911 Turbo is 13% more money today while the viper is more than 60% more money today.
Clarkson (and myself) appreciated what the RT/10 was and wasnt-And that was the whole point of the car, which was all good stuff (xcept the roof,lol). But today the Viper's window sticker reads like a porsche's, yet you say he's not supposed to compare the two side by side? Yet some fear he may. Though you really cant blame him.
(i only use the porsche as a general example)

 

[onerareviper]

I think I proved my point about trolldome.... But in the words of O'Rielly, "We'll let the audience decide".

What, the Viper crony audience? mmkay......

... please don't show us pictures of 4 automatics (2 luxury cars, 1 SUV, 1 Econo-box) while talking about performance....

those were readily available. I could dig up more, but why?
I dont prefer automatics in performance cars, but your comments are absurd. The second fastest car around the top gear track is an automatic and the MOST powerful car in the world right now is an automatic. So your sarcastic comments have little basis in a country where 90% of cars sold are autos, but most importantly, in the past few years we've seen more high performance cars offered with automatics than ever before. Lambo's, Ferrari's, Porsche Turbo's are offered with autos. Its only a matter of time for the Viper...

Yeah, I see automatics (not paddle shifters, as I don't believe these are really considered automatics) dominating the road racing circuit Where have I been the past 30 years? I'm going to get me a Luxo 4,500 pound SL AMG and take on all comers....

As far as what other people purchase in the US, I could give a sh*t. Most people do prefer automatics. But, HELLO!!!, you're talking with Viper owners, where an automatic isn't even an option.

 

[onerareviper]

However, as the years went on, the viper got heavier and fatter.

1992 RT/10 - Weight 3,456 lbs.

1996 RT/10 - Weight 3,445 lbs.

1996 up GTS - Weight 3,400 lbs.

2003 up SRT10 - Weight 3,380 lbs.

** Troll, you are wrong once again.

 

[Guibo]

However, as the years went on, the viper got heavier and fatter. They added more and more of those creature comforts that you say the viper doesnt have. So today, its got windows, door handles, power everything, a real roof, HID's, ABS, motorized pedals. Everything is WASNT supposed to have. And they just added carpeting to the trunk! All of this stuff is hardly a 'back to basics' philosophy.

And yet you're the one wondering why the Viper doesn't have nav...
Has it ever occurred to you that the Viper is as refined as it is today (and as unrefined as it is today) largely as a result of what Dodge thinks the public (Viper-buying public) wants? I'm sure if the Viper were every bit as crude as that first one, you'd be the first one here lamenting the fact that there's been no progress on the car. Admit it, you'd be whining no matter what.
Did it ever occur to you that back in the day, Porsche pretty much had its way in the market with the Turbo? Nowadays, there's a reinvigorated Aston Martin, C5/C6 with vastly improved quality (and in Z06 form, performance to match), Ferraris (which nowadays, unlike in the past, can go toe to toe against the Turbo in a straight line), AMG Mercs, Lambo Gallardo, etc. Of course Porsche only raised prices by 13%; it wouldn't want to price the Turbo out of its market. On the other hand, maybe Dodge is pricing the Viper where it should have been all along?

Speaking of "getting heavier and fatter"...
'91 Porsche Turbo: 3270 lbs
'04 Porsche Turbo: 3388

 

[Snakester]

Come on Autostream.

You can't have it both ways.
First you accuse the Viper of being too crude, and now it's too civilized and feature laden. Sheesh!

And the 911 Turbo is $118K, with the 911 Turbo Cabrio at $128K (415HP/3520lb), and we are somehow supposed to see the more powerful, lighter, quicker $81K SRT-10 Viper as overpriced? Or less of a performance bargain?

 

[Autostream]

Come on Autostream.
You can't have it both ways.
First you accuse the Viper of being too crude, and now it's too civilized and feature laden. Sheesh!

I never said it was too civilized nor too feature laden. It's like if Jessica Simpson got a little smarter, she would still be dumb as a bucket of rocks. And it would start to ruin her charm- since we love it that she's a typical dumb blonde

Let me try this a fourth way. I loved the original viper. In the 90's you could have one for 3300 lbs and around $50 something. Its exileration and pure passion make you like its crudeness and recalcitrance even more. It somehow made you wanna love it purely for its wonton consumption and un-pc'ness! It didnt have to have porsche quality because it was in its own league and price range (and if it did-would surely detract from its fervor)
But the SRT-10 has been softened a bit and had its price raised (and dont argue-its weight has gone up too-weigh a 1992 without spare tire,tools,jack,fuel, and compare to 2004).
This is the opposite of the 'Viper' philosophy. It should be getting harder, faster and be priced the same- def not fatter and more $. Even the purists agree it has lost a little of its idiocsyncracies that gave it character. and character is half the reason why you buy a viper.

I implied the Viper is too crude for $81k, but its perfect for $56,500.
Drop the HID's, 210 watts from the stereo, truck carpet, pedal motors, window motors, mirror motors, lock actuators, etc and take $25k off the price. Then calling it a 'blunderbus' would be a rave instead of a rant.

 

[Kai SRT10]

I never said it was too civilized nor too feature laden. It's like if Jessica Simpson got a little smarter, she would still be dumb as a bucket of rocks. And it would start to ruin her charm- since we love it that she's a typical dumb blonde

Considering that it appears that you've never even driven a SRT-10, it's just kind of hard to take your opinions seriously. You're trying way too hard to appear knowledgable about a car you clearly don't know much about. Unless you own a SRT-10 and drive it a lot, you know less about the car than most of the people on this board.
I've read lots of magazine articles on the Enzo, and saw it on Charlie's Angels, and I've driven a 360 and a 308. Perhaps I should find the Ferrari club web site and whine about how the Enzo has poor build quality and doesn't have the charisma or driver involvement of the "old" gated six speed F-50. Considering that I've never even driven an Enzo, why would anyone (particularly Enzo owners) care what I thought?
You have an opinion on Vipers and you have an opinion on Jessica Simpson. My guess is that you are unlikely to ever get any real experience with either.

 

[Autostream]

YES. YES, you've captured the essence of what I've been trying to get across for 2 weeks and I couldnt agree more.

It would be wise to take the opinion of someone who has driven every important car in their time very seriously.
We arent talking about consumer reports who think cupholders are more important than hp. We ARE talking about someone who loves performance and driving. Someone who drove to his wedding in a Viper. Someone who's experience with high performance machines is up there with the best of the world.

So if Clarkson bashes the viper (which people here think he will). His opinions may just be based on the truth and not just because its wasnt made in Blackpool.

 

[SnakeBitten]

So if Clarkson bashes the viper (which people here think he will). His opinions may just be based on the truth and not just because its wasnt made in Blackpool.

If you really believe you will get an actual factual assessment from Pumpkinhead on an American cars then you are just a blind fanboy of JC. The guy is dripping with bias towards American cars. He doesnt even try to hide it. Even Ray Charles would have seen it. Id more listen to Tiff Needells opinion, negative or positive, than JC's though JC is more "entertaining". I do like JC but I take his opinions towards American cars with a grain. Viper/Vette are far from perfect cars but when you cant even admit that they handle well and kick ass on a track, which has been proven countless times, it reveals an acute case of bias.

 

[Kai SRT10]

YES. YES, you've captured the essence of what I've been trying to get across for 2 weeks and I couldnt agree more.

It would be wise to take the opinion of someone who has driven every important car in their time very seriously.
We arent talking about consumer reports who think cupholders are more important than hp. We ARE talking about someone who loves performance and driving. Someone who drove to his wedding in a Viper. Someone who's experience with high performance machines is up there with the best of the world.

So if Clarkson bashes the viper (which people here think he will). His opinions may just be based on the truth and not just because its wasnt made in Blackpool.

I will be interested in seeing the Top Gear show and Stig's lap time, but I'm done responding to your inane comments.

You must be registered for see images

 

[onerareviper]

(and dont argue-its weight has gone up too-weigh a 1992 without spare tire,tools,jack,fuel, and compare to 2004).

Don't argue? Unless Dodge weighed the cars differently in 1992 vs. 2004, the SRT10 is lighter. Period. 3,456 - 3,380 = 76 pounds. Now remove a donut (20 lbs), small jack + tools (10 lbs max), that's 30 lbs. SRT10 is still 46 pounds lighter. A full tank of gas could make a difference, but I don't think the specs in 1992 was with a full tank, and 2004 bone dry.

Your problem is you CAN'T admit when you're wrong. You initially claimed the SRT10 is basically a 'Fat Pig' compared to the early models. This is not true, period. No debate. No argument. You are wrong. Facts are facts.

Now let's say this together: "My name is Autostream, and I am wrong".

 

[Snakester]

It's clear that you keep dancing around the fact that you are plainly biased, and so is Clarkson.
You share his Euro-centric, distorted point of view.
Just don't expect for any of us (who actually drive Vipers regularly) to believe skewed, opinionated views that simply do not understand what owning a Viper is all about.

To you, the best that the Viper can ever be is a crude, bare bones toy. But it has evolved (whether you like it or not) into a high performance convertible that is at the same time more civil, and better performing than ever before.

It's your expectations that don't match what the car offers. Not that the Viper is somehow flawed in it's design.
Frankly it's clear from your posts that you may never understand that fact.

 

[Autostream]

.... Facts are facts. ....

I read in motor trend that the viper weighed 3300lbs.. dont remmeber which one it was, but it was NOT the SRT-10


Its amazing that I am having four separate, though simliar, arguements here. And I think its you guys who are the biased ones. Clarkson doesnt like the SRT10 because of everything i referenced above. Coincidentaly, its those same things that he doesnt like about the vette. Any car that is like that, he wont like- no matter WHERE it is built. Just so happens many american cars are like that. But not all, and he gives credit where credit it due. He thinks the Ford GT is so fantastic that he bought one. He also owns a Ford Focus.
Further adding to your conspiracy theory is that American cars are like a square peg in europes round hole car buying public.. for one, you guys prefer gobs of torque over anything else, and foreigners just dont. Its obvious when you'll find a lot more tiny engines with turbos than enormous v8's and v10's

I've read a lot of articles about vipers and the consensus is pretty much in agreement that the viper doesnt offer a great total package. Which is quite the oppposite of a 996tt. So for example if you were to put the two together in sort of a head to head test, the viper would lose. regardless that some of its performance spec are faster.

 

[Snakester]

It's amazing that I am having four separate, though simliar, arguements here.

Nothing amazing about it. We own and live with these Vipers in the real world, and you and Clarkson don't. But you still somehow believe that you are judging them objectively, even with your undeniable blind preference for European cars.

I never said that Vipers are the best cars for European roads. But I wouldn't put the Viper as any worse than a Murcielago in that regard.

The 1992 Viper was heavier than the SRT-10 is.
The ACR GTS Vipers were the same lighter weight as the SRT-10 Vipers are today, but they had their air conditioner, fog lamps and stereo audio system removed for competition racing.

 

[repete]

whats even funnier..is that ur losing all 4 of your arguments

 

[Guibo]

I read in motor trend that the viper weighed 3300lbs.. dont remmeber which one it was, but it was NOT the SRT-10
I've read a lot of articles about vipers...

Yet you don't recall which one it was that weighed 3300 lbs? Maybe you need to pay more attention when reading. Just because you read somewhere that the Viper weighed 3300 lbs doesn't mean you have to assume it's the old one. It could've just been a rough estimate.
FWIW, MT lists the SRT-10 at 3357 lbs:
http://motortrend.com/roadtests/coupe/112_0306_spdvip/index1.html

In their August '93 issue, they listed the Viper's weight as a claimed 3476 lbs. Quite a bit off from 3300 lbs, no?

R&T 8/92, RT/10: 3485 lbs
R&T S&GT '03, SRT-10: 3390 lbs


What's this rubbish about weighing the old car w/o a spare and no fuel in the tank? Curb weights generally mean full of fluids, so it's pretty stupid to be talking about weighing one car empty and the other one full; but coming from you, should we have expected any less?
Let's not forget, the SRT-10 may lose some weight by not having a spare. But it puts some of that back on through the use of heavier runflat tires. And the tires and wheels are larger than they were back in '92, aren't they? Dual airbags...which Viper has it? Motorized, adjustable pedals? Real side windows, electrically operated? ABS? A fully functioning folding top? Larger brakes? Air conditioning? Power mirrors? 6-disc CD changer? Next, you'll be trying to convince us these items are made of helium...

 

[InjectTheVenom]

So when is the episode with the review going to be aired?

 

[Autostream]

Yet you don't recall which one it was that weighed 3300 lbs? ...

unbelievable, you cant argue against my original point, so you take one word i said out of context to make it look like you have a legitimate argument.
I was referring to the 92-02 viper. I was showing how every year or so it got more creature comforts and stuff that went agaisnt the original 'viper philosophy'
The first viper wasnt supposed to make money. the SRT-10 had to be a profitable car or it wasnt going to be produced. Hence no more clamshell hood as an example. It was integral part of the crazy look that everyone loved about the car yet wasnt practical or economical so it got the boot.
This isnt a new argument, but an addendum to my earlier posts.


I listen to Tiff too. He is far less opinionated than JC though. I'm not sure if he actually is speaking his opinions or someone else's script, but I am certain everything JC says, are from scripts that he writes himself. The only 'Bias' Clarkson may have is with English cars, especially Aston and Jag. Though he clearly admits, the DB7 has too many flaws. But like you viper guys, he overlooks them because it has a lot of power and nice lines.

p.s. Your french tires you have on your srt10 only weigh 10% more than non run-flats.

 

[Autostream]

.... You initially claimed the SRT10 is basically a 'Fat Pig' compared to the early models. This is not true, period. No debate. No argument. You are wrong. Facts are facts.

I'm RIGHT. you just arent listening to what i am saying. 'Fat' doesnt mean you just weigh them and the heaviest one is the fattest. Technology alone will make an identically equipped car lighter with time. Lighter metals become cost effective and computer and techonology yield lighter designs, etc.
The 911 turbo only gained 115lbs in ten years, yet added a complete AWD system, a radiator and water pump system, and twice as many valves. With the latter 3 neccesitated by government mandate. And only a price increase of 13% while staying true to its heritage.

The Viper weighs about the same 12 years later while giving you stuff that goes against its heritage and costing a whopping 60% more.

btw, ditching the clamshell was the best decision the accountants made. It saved a huge 40lbs (biggest weight saver for the srt10) and is a lot cheaper to make.

 

[Neil - UK]

new series began tonight and started with a montage of flashed clips of whats coming up over the next nine weeks, the only SRT (black) clip I spotted was it travelling backwards, fast.

had the new 911 S without 4 wheel drive system, which was pushed 20 seconds faster around a lap of N'burg than the current 911 !! The new gangster Chrysler against the new jag and Aus Monaro on a beach, Morano was voted best all round you can guess what got the least votes. All around £30K.

 

[Guibo]

I was referring to the 92-02 viper. I was showing how every year or so it got more creature comforts and stuff that went agaisnt the original 'viper philosophy'

And yet the even the current Viper is far too crude for your tastes. It's also cruder still than your beloved Porsches. You can't complain about it being too crude and yet too refined. A lot of the stuff it has nowadays is the result of customer demand. God forbid Dodge should actually listen to what its customer base wants!

The '02 Viper is lighter than the '92 Viper. And that's with all of the extra stuff on there. But nevermind, you were comparing the '92 against the SRT-10. Which, as a point of FACT that you've failed to acknowledge, is lighter than the '92. Now, are you going to own up to this error or not? C'mon guy, grow at least one ********.

BTW, curb weights from C&D:
10/97 RT/10 (no ABS): 3410 lbs
11/02 SRT-10: 3408 lbs

p.s. Your french tires you have on your srt10 only weigh 10% more than non run-flats.

Hey, thanks for confirming that it's the SRT-10's tires that are heavier. Like I said, some of what the SRT-10 loses in not having a spare is put back on through heavier tires. A Michelin Pilot Sport in the Viper's size has got to weigh, what, at least 25 lbs (probably more)? 25 x 4 = 100, so we're talking about 10 extra pounds here, at a minimum. (FWIW, the Z06 saves a total of 23.4 lbs by ditching the standard Corvette's runflat tires; and those tires are smaller than the Viper's.) Hmmm...20 lbs by losing the spare doesn't seem to be the end of it, now does it? But wait...how much more do the wheels weigh? 10x18 fronts, 13x19 rears vs the old car's 10.5x17 fronts, 13x17 rears.

Sounds like you're reading off from the 10/02 issue of R&T. Is that the case?

 

[onerareviper]

.... You initially claimed the SRT10 is basically a 'Fat Pig' compared to the early models. This is not true, period. No debate. No argument. You are wrong. Facts are facts.

I'm RIGHT. you just arent listening to what i am saying. 'Fat' doesnt mean you just weigh them and the heaviest one is the fattest. Technology alone will make an identically equipped car lighter with time. Lighter metals become cost effective and computer and techonology yield lighter designs, etc.
The 911 turbo only gained 115lbs in ten years, yet added a complete AWD system, a radiator and water pump system, and twice as many valves. With the latter 3 neccesitated by government mandate. And only a price increase of 13% while staying true to its heritage.

The Viper weighs about the same 12 years later while giving you stuff that goes against its heritage and costing a whopping 60% more.

btw, ditching the clamshell was the best decision the accountants made. It saved a huge 40lbs (biggest weight saver for the srt10) and is a lot cheaper to make.

Autostream,

Let's all say it again, "My name is Autostream, and I am wrong". Let me quote you VERBATIM from a previous post.

However, as the years went on, the viper got heavier and fatter.

Now let's see you 'spin' how HEAVIER doesn't have anything to do with weight. THIS SHOULD BE GOOD.... Especially when it lost 100 pounds, and GOT LIGHTER (the opposite of HEAVIER) with each generation. OWNED!

 

[Kai SRT10]

new series began tonight and started with a montage of flashed clips of whats coming up over the next nine weeks, the only SRT (black) clip I spotted was it travelling backwards, fast.

had the new 911 S without 4 wheel drive system, which was pushed 20 seconds faster around a lap of N'burg than the current 911 !! The new gangster Chrysler against the new jag and Aus Monaro on a beach, Morano was voted best all round you can guess what got the least votes. All around £30K.

I was a bit disappointed that the 911S got its "Stig Lap" in heavy rain. Hard to know the car's true capabilities when it's ploughing through huge puddles, and it's hard to really compare a wet lap in the 911 to the dry laps in the other cars.
With a car like the 911, it seems like they should be able to hold on to their test car until a dry day comes up, so they can run it on a dry track. If I were the Porsche folks responsible for the press car, I would certainly let the Top Gear folks have the car for an extra day or two if it meant testing the car on a dry track.
Oh well, just more fodder for the arguments on Top Gear's testing methodology. I just hope they tested the Viper on a dry track.

Kai

 

[quickysrt]

so wheres the damn video? it should be out by now right?

 

[InjectTheVenom]

so wheres the damn video? it should be out by now right?

Same opinion here