TT Vs. SC (What are the real world differences?)

MaxedGTS

Enthusiast
Joined
Feb 5, 2001
Posts
795
Reaction score
0
Location
Ohio
i don't think Roof or BADVPR have TAKEN back there tt cars yet from their tuners? am i wrong? i read how fast these tt cars are by posting a single time slip, that only shows there potential :rolleyes: i want to see a couple races where a tt customer car with a 1000 rwhp run the entire day of competition NOT in the hands of a tuner! im talking about a customer driving there own 1000 plus rwhp car :smirk:
 

Dr Roof

Enthusiast
Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Posts
1,569
Reaction score
0
Location
Louisville, KY usa
Max

These things take time to figure out. as most DLM customers know it takes well over 8 months to get a supercharger system on a high power level worked out. Granted they do get worked out but you very well know that it takes time. (my car took far more than that total, but was a work in progress) and after many races it had to go back to DLM so the blower cars have the same issues.

The same is true for the Twin Turbo (Not 8 months) but ample time to figure out what works and what doesn't and the main thing being how to make the car hook with-out breaking. we are almost there as Heffner and RSi have Proven with the recent Low 9.7's and Heffners 9.56. the only Blower car that has gone near those numbers is my own and Underground Racing TUned BlownGTS.

I know that when you are dealing with High Horsepower cars over 1000 RWHP it has the potential to do great things you just have to spend the time to get it to do them. I know that when DOug Had Treynors car he went to the track several times with Blower and NOS set-up with 1000 RWHP and the best he ran was a 10.01 or something like that but MPH was over 150 MPH.


Give it time and the TT will come full circle.

Does the Blower car still have a place? Yes!!! I think at times the Blower car will beat the TT but that is racing. I might just run Both!

My personal preference is the TT for the street as it is much easier to talk on the phone! but if you like the Cam and Exhaust sound the blower car sounds real nice as well.

you are right we have not had the opportunity to drive them both at the same time (Chad or I) I have chosen not to as the car is a bit much for me considering how powerful the TT is. in due time after i get the seat time I will be in the Drivers seat!
 

MaxedGTS

Enthusiast
Joined
Feb 5, 2001
Posts
795
Reaction score
0
Location
Ohio
David
i think you part understand my point. most comments made about tt vs sc come from people that dont qualify because they haven't had there tt car for 50,000 miles like ive had my sc car. Grant it i dont make 1000 rwhp but i do drive my car in the REAL world everyday and my car is not in the hands of a tuner. the tt cars have shown there potential and they can make tons of power but can they compete with that much power? every car, sc tt n/a is going to break at some time wiht that much hp. i think the tt cars need more time to prove there point.

if treynors car ran 10.1 or something like that it still is better than one good record pass by a tt car that fails. atleast a 10.1 sc car can compete all day long in some class or another over a broken tt car. i know the tt cars WILL have there day :2tu:
Max
 

MannyC

Enthusiast
Joined
May 30, 2003
Posts
1,341
Reaction score
0
Location
San Diego, California
My DLM car had major issues for the 1st time last night. We had rented out the Fontana track (California Speedway) and with only about 60 cars there, we had all the runs we could want. My 1st pass, the car started lurching/bogging at the top of 2nd gear and did that at high RPM's through 4th. Car ran a measly 11.6 @ 125 and just felt like it stopped pulling in 4th. I put the camera in the car to record the boost guage and ran again, and sure enough, the guage would never reach full boost and would be jumping around, as if the car wasn't getting enough fuel. The AEM A/F guage would go blank under the full runs which makes me nervous -- normally it would read nicely. Belt was tight and is pretty new, so we changed the plugs out at the track. Took another run and again the same problem -- car was lurching/bogging/hessitating bad at the higher RPM's once past 1st gear.

Put the car on the West Coast Viper trailer and took the SRT-10 out for a few passes before calling it a night. Car is now at WCV.

Now I get to wait and find out what the issue is, next week. Computer? Issue with the extra fuel injectors?

Doug, it was late your time (after 10pm) so I left you a voice mail message. If you get a chance, call John Horton at West Coast Viper and perhaps the two of you can narrow this down faster.

Take care,

Manny
 

Moundir

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 3, 2002
Posts
1,816
Reaction score
0
Location
Ny
My DLM car had major issues for the 1st time last night. We had rented out the Fontana track (California Speedway) and with only about 60 cars there, we had all the runs we could want. My 1st pass, the car started lurching/bogging at the top of 2nd gear and did that at high RPM's through 4th. Car ran a measly 11.6 @ 125 and just felt like it stopped pulling in 4th. I put the camera in the car to record the boost guage and ran again, and sure enough, the guage would never reach full boost and would be jumping around, as if the car wasn't getting enough fuel. The AEM A/F guage would go blank under the full runs which makes me nervous -- normally it would read nicely. Belt was tight and is pretty new, so we changed the plugs out at the track. Took another run and again the same problem -- car was lurching/bogging/hessitating bad at the higher RPM's once past 1st gear.

Put the car on the West Coast Viper trailer and took the SRT-10 out for a few passes before calling it a night. Car is now at WCV.

Now I get to wait and find out what the issue is, next week. Computer? Issue with the extra fuel injectors?

Doug, it was late your time (after 10pm) so I left you a voice mail message. If you get a chance, call John Horton at West Coast Viper and perhaps the two of you can narrow this down faster.

Take care,

Manny
That sux, hope it aint nothing big :smirk: Give me a holler ****, I want to talk about Bradenton in dec!!!

Mike
 

Paolo Castellano

Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 1, 2000
Posts
1,173
Reaction score
2
Location
Elburn, Il, USA
How about the difference in HEAT from the SC being driven from the crank? Is there a major difference here?

Casey, the SC is always compressing air while the crank is spinning which generates heat.

Turbos, on the other hand, really only compress air and generate boost under load.

Hey, are you back in Italy yet? Give me a call!
 

mystic

Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 17, 2002
Posts
95
Reaction score
0
Location
Venice, Florida
How come TT is so much quieter? Can you make them loud? I personally think vipers should be loud so I wouldn't want to drop 35g into a car and it sound stock. From past experiences, turbo cars sound badass in general. Especially supras, skylines, etc..so whats it take to make a viper TT sound like that?
 

SnakeBitten

Enthusiast
Joined
May 18, 2001
Posts
2,550
Reaction score
0
How come TT is so much quieter? Can you make them loud? I personally think vipers should be loud so I wouldn't want to drop 35g into a car and it sound stock. From past experiences, turbo cars sound badass in general. Especially supras, skylines, etc..so whats it take to make a viper TT sound like that?

Are you the same Mystic from Supraforums that just bought a Viper??? If so then you should know why tt are quieter...They use some of the exhaust gasses to spool the turbo so they are quieter as a result...My friend had a Supra that used to be loud when accelerating...I think he vented the waste gate to the atmosphere instead of it going back into exhaust pipe....Im sure the turbo guru's here know what I mean and can elaborate more if my attempt to explain went south... :p ;)
 

Gerald

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 2, 2000
Posts
5,401
Reaction score
0
Location
Near Tampa Bay
How about the difference in HEAT from the SC being driven from the crank? Is there a major difference here?

Casey, the SC is always compressing air while the crank is spinning which generates heat.

Turbos, on the other hand, really only compress air and generate boost under load.

Hey, are you back in Italy yet? Give me a call!


Paolo,

I disagree, Superchargers, depending on the system, can bypass any heat related pressure by cooling it thru an intercooler and then exiting thru the bypass. Turbo's on the other hand, the exhaust tract and the intake track share the same shaft in common (impeller shaft). Turbo's ALWAYS have heat backing up into the engine because of the exhaust restriction. This is why low boost turbo's MUST or should be intercooled vs. low boost S/C not having to be intercooled.

Another fact: Superchargers at cruising speed actually help the engine breathe because they help the engine put air into the motor at the same relative RPM. At cruising speed it's actually less work on the motor.



:usa: :headbang:

G
 

Casey

Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 24, 2001
Posts
4,662
Reaction score
0
Location
Valparaiso, IN.
Casey, the SC is always compressing air while the crank is spinning which generates heat.

Turbos, on the other hand, really only compress air and generate boost under load.

Hey, are you back in Italy yet? Give me a call!

Paolo, Still here, but not for much longer. I'll catch up with you next week.

In regards to TT being more quiet. Is that under the hood quiet, or will it make the exhaust note sound different?
 

Paolo Castellano

Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 1, 2000
Posts
1,173
Reaction score
2
Location
Elburn, Il, USA
How about the difference in HEAT from the SC being driven from the crank? Is there a major difference here?

Casey, the SC is always compressing air while the crank is spinning which generates heat.

Turbos, on the other hand, really only compress air and generate boost under load.

Hey, are you back in Italy yet? Give me a call!


Paolo,

I disagree, Superchargers, depending on the system, can bypass any heat related pressure by cooling it thru an intercooler and then exiting thru the bypass. Turbo's on the other hand, the exhaust tract and the intake track share the same shaft in common (impeller shaft). Turbo's ALWAYS have heat backing up into the engine because of the exhaust restriction. This is why low boost turbo's MUST or should be intercooled vs. low boost S/C not having to be intercooled.

Another fact: Superchargers at cruising speed actually help the engine breathe because they help the engine put air into the motor at the same relative RPM. At cruising speed it's actually less work on the motor.



:usa: :headbang:

G

Gerald, I apologize for not making a full explanation in my previous post:

I think we are talking about 2 different kinds of heat: The kind of heat to which I was referring was the air intake charge becoming heated due to the nature of the compression of the air from the forced induction from either Turbo or supercharger.

With a supercharger system, at a certain RPM, the crank will spin the impeller of the supercharger at a certain speed compressing X amount of air molecules ie relatively more or less PSI with more or less RPM. THe higher the RPM(with a centrifugal blower) the more boost(air compression) ==> The more heat generated.

Now you just said, " Superchargers, depending on the system, can bypass any heat related pressure by cooling it thru an intercooler and then exiting thru the bypass."

What is effectively happening in this scenario is the following: The supercharger is compressing air making it hotter and then putting it through the intercooler effectively heat soaking the intercooler minimizing the marginal efficiency of the intercooler/power levels/the tune of the car/etc...

One possible solution to this problem would be to put the bypass BEFORE the intercooler which would solve the problem of this type of heat generation.

Now, here is my point: ==> The turbo on the other hand, cruising along, not under load DOES NOT make the near the same amount of boost it would at that same RPM under load. This is because the exhaust gases are basically at such a relatively low velocity(compared to under load conditions), you can have actually close to zero boost under light load cruising at say 3-4,000 RPM that you could never have with a supercharger.

Now the turbo heat you were describing would be classified as radiant heat. You are correct in saying the turbine and compressor sides share the common shaft. You should think of the turbine side and turbine impeller wheel as the pulley on your supercharger with the exhaust gases as the belt being driven by the crank. There is also a compressor side impeller wheel making two wheels in total. Yes they are close, but the turbo vipers with stock radiator run relatively cooler than a supercharger car with similar power levels. With the proper heat shielding and such the radiant heat becomes a non-issue on the turbo car. I am sure Eric Redsnake and Chad can comment on this phenomenon. It is due to this fact that I would put more of an emphasis on the compressed-air heating as being more relevant to whether either car runs hotter or not. :2tu:
 

CHAD

Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 14, 2003
Posts
868
Reaction score
0
Location
Sarasota, FL
My turbo car runs much cooler (water temp) than with the S/C. I'll have to check my mileage to see which power adder causes more load at part throttle but I would think that it would have to be the S/C.

Mike, you can ride with me to film the destruction, uh, I mean race. :eek: :D

Chad
 

Fishtail

Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 10, 2003
Posts
584
Reaction score
0
Location
PA
My turbo car runs much cooler (water temp) than with the S/C. I'll have to check my mileage to see which power adder causes more load at part throttle but I would think that it would have to be the S/C.



Chad
Am I missing something here? Didn't Heffner just build your TT car and race last weekend? He's in VA and your in FL. :confused:
Enjoy that beast of yours anyway :2tu:

-Lou
 

Moundir

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 3, 2002
Posts
1,816
Reaction score
0
Location
Ny
My turbo car runs much cooler (water temp) than with the S/C. I'll have to check my mileage to see which power adder causes more load at part throttle but I would think that it would have to be the S/C.

Mike, you can ride with me to film the destruction, uh, I mean race. :eek: :D

Chad

Cool, I'll bring the depends, so that I dont poop all over your seats lol :eek:
 

DLTARNU

Suspended
Joined
Feb 24, 2004
Posts
727
Reaction score
0
Location
Miami, FL
Casey,

Where in Italy are you? I'm in Livorno at the moment. I'll be in the Med for another month.
 

Gerald

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 2, 2000
Posts
5,401
Reaction score
0
Location
Near Tampa Bay
Chad, you'll have to take me for a ride in that BAD VPR when it gets back to FL!! Gimme a ring!

Gerald


I think at this next Bradenton gig, I'll just spectate. Vipers are getting MUCH too fast!!! :)
 

CHAD

Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 14, 2003
Posts
868
Reaction score
0
Location
Sarasota, FL
Chad, you'll have to take me for a ride in that BAD VPR when it gets back to FL!! Gimme a ring!

Gerald

Absolutely, only I won't sandbag it like you did to me on the ride in your car. ;) I'll give you the complete TT experience (on a closed track while utilizing every possible safety precaution of course). No worries though, I'm no top speed freak like Paolo.

Then Mike and I can go kill some stuff. I'd have a hard time beating a Z06 having to haul Gerald-the-Giant along. :eek: :2tu:
 

Gerald

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 2, 2000
Posts
5,401
Reaction score
0
Location
Near Tampa Bay
I'll look forward to it!!!!

p.s.
How about we setup some races with some Hayabusa's? Interested?!!!! I think it'd be fun and you and Heff would get some killer exposure!


G
 

Forum statistics

Threads
153,263
Posts
1,682,507
Members
17,773
Latest member
ctrengine
Top