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Video: Tesla Model S Electric Car vs Dodge Viper

Discussion in 'SRT10 and SRT10 Coupe Discussions' started by FikseGTS, Jan 28, 2013.

  1. TonyCool

    TonyCool Viper Owner

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    The problem isn't really what pollutes the most although I'm willing to beat gasoline would be the looser in that front. The real issue here is that we are running out of oil. Some day children will have to learn what gasoline was and how it was used from a book.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
  2. Bobpantax

    Bobpantax Enthusiast

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    There is the little issue of crash worthiness and safety when hydrogen, a very flammable, possibly explosive, gas is involved. The Hindenberg comes to mind. The same issue is present with respect to hydrogen stations and distribution. Perhaps there is a solution but it will not be inexpensive and it will add weight.

     
  3. mnc2886

    mnc2886 Enthusiast

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    Sorry dude, not true. Most of our electricity comes from coal. Secondly, thinking that we will be out of oil in 50 years is laughable. You should really do some research on that. Over time we will switch to using natural gas power generation and less oil will be needed. Our reserves are much larger than 50 years and each new technology makes it even longer.
     
  4. TonyCool

    TonyCool Viper Owner

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    Correct me if I'm wrong but while it's true hydrogen is flammable, it is also the least dense element and it disperses very quickly meaning in case of an accident it would disperse before it could ignite. It also burns very fast and has a higher ignition temperature than gasoline (gasoline is between 228 and 500, hydrogen is 550). Also the Hindenburg (note the corrected orthography) didn't crash and burn because of the hydrogen balloons lifting it up, it burned because of the coating on the outside. The hydrogen only burned for about 90 seconds of the total time the Hindenburg was burning. Hydrogen fires are notable for being less destructive to immediate surroundings than gasoline explosions because of the buoyancy of H2, which causes heat of combustion to be released upwards more than circumferentially as the leaked mass ascends in the atmosphere; hydrogen fires are more survivable than fires of gasoline and of wood.

    Werthmüller, Andreas. The Hindenburg Disaster. Rüfenacht Switzerland: Swiss Hydrogen Association, February 22, 2006.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
  5. TonyCool

    TonyCool Viper Owner

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    OK while I admit that the 50 year estimate was just sort of a paranoid exaggeration not based on facts. The fact is we will eventually run out of oil. May be in a hundred years or may be more. What you are failing to observe here is that while the timing in my original statement might not be accurate. When the oil reserves become low enough the price for this resource will be sky high. It wouldn't matter if there is still enough left to continue burning it at our current pace for another 40 years because when we reach that point the resource will be reserved for more meaningful purposes so it lasts longer. Think of what happens when people are on a food shortage situation. Do they eat it all for one last glorious meal or do they ration it to survive for a few weeks?

    If this wasn't true I assure you wouldn't be seeing new cars like the Tesla, the Karma S or the Honda Clarity. Engineers are working so hard to solve this problem, exactly because it's a problem. A problem we better solve. Gas is lesser of an alternative than hydrogen because it's not as abundant in the universe and it's even more explosive.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
  6. eucharistos

    eucharistos Enthusiast

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    again, where do you get the 100 or more yrs info?

    i agree if "or more" means unknown, but do you think (asking in a nice way) that oil is only made of old dinosaurs?
     
  7. TonyCool

    TonyCool Viper Owner

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    I think the better question (also asking in a nice way) is do you really think crude oil is an unlimited resource? And yes 100 year or more means unknown I don't think that information is publicly available. Again it's not so much about when it will happen, the only important thing here is that it will happen and relatively soon in comparison to the amount of time it takes for it to naturally produce.

    Tony
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2013
  8. Bobpantax

    Bobpantax Enthusiast

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  9. TonyCool

    TonyCool Viper Owner

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    I forgot to say when I replied to your comment that I agree with you about the weight and cost. It's not going to be easy or inexpensive and then there is the fact that although hydrogen is very abundant it's always attached to something else at a molecular level and the process of extracting it is not simple or inexpensive. However it's also not too much more difficult than extracting petrol from the bottom of the ocean and we were able to do that just fine. I also agree that this solution is not flawless and that using hydrogen does imply some safety concerns. I've been aware of them all along as you can see from previous post where I make reference to the chemical characteristics of hydrogen.

    All I was saying is that the architecture in the Honda Clarity is more realistically applicable to our current way of dealing with automotive transportation than a battery powered electric car. And that although using hydrogen does imply safety issues they are not necessarily greater than what we have been doing all along by using gasoline. It's not like gasoline is not explosive. As I said before hydrogen fires are proven to be less damaging to their surroundings than gasoline fires.

    In my original post about the Clarity I was just wondering how long it would be before there is an non gasoline powered car with comparable commodity to what current automotive transportation offers that is actually desirable. If you know of a more suitable technology that could realistically replace internal combustion engines and is currently available... please bring it up.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
  10. mnc2886

    mnc2886 Enthusiast

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    Tony, I work in gas compression. Hydrogen should be our last option. It is one of the most dangerous and difficult gases to compress. Referencing auto ignition is not the same as how easily it burns. Not only does it burn extremely hot, but the flame is also not even visible. Dangerous doesn't even begin to describe using hydrogen for energy.
     
  11. LaViper

    LaViper Enthusiast

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    :omg: Really,? running out of oil in 50 yrs? ? :crazy2: :nono: Lived in Louisiana for 62 yrs, have worked in the :usa:"Oilfield" :usa: for decades as many, many of my friends and they always tell me we have enough oil to last for 300 yrs. :dunno: Don't you know the Energy situation is completely controlled by crooked Politicans & the Wealthy / powerfull in power ?? :rolleyes: But I don't have a problem with your view/opinion, many are mis-informed. :eater:
     
  12. chorps

    chorps Enthusiast

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    Yep, Hydrogen molecules are small and sneaky...they can fit through spaces where other gases cannot. Not saying it can't be done, but when your average driver has a hard time changing the oil in their car on a regular basis, asking them to maintain a high pressure hydrogen tank is a recipe for disaster.
     
  13. Bobpantax

    Bobpantax Enthusiast

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    Many years ago over a few beers a mechanical engineer and I had a fun discussion over the concept of a spring driven car. We discussed what the spring might be made of and whether the wind up would be locate inside or outside the car and what kind of physical effort would be required to wind it up or whether this could be done with an electric motor. We never went further than that. But it would be interesting to explore it with today's technology, etc. Some watches have an eight day power reserve. I wonder how many miles a spring might be good for. Of course, the car would probably need some battery power for accessories.

    I also have not yet given up on the future possibility of solar power in those parts of the world where the weather makes it somewhat practical. Once the power storage issue is solved, it will be interesting.

     
  14. TonyCool

    TonyCool Viper Owner

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    It sure sounds like having a beer with you and discuss on ultimately meaningless subjects would be lots of fun :2tu: count me in for that when we are both at a VOI event.

    I didn't quite get your point on this last post... But differently to other technologies this one is actually possible to implement today. Case in point is that you could buy a car with this technology in California 3 years ago, you could drive it a bunch of miles and charge it back in a few minutes at a refill station. And none to my knowledge have yet exploded

    Solar energy is definitely interesting to look at but ultimately although outside Earth's atmosphere, the sun's energy produces about 1,300 watts per square meter. About one-third of this light is reflected back into space, some is absorbed by the atmosphere and by the time it reaches Earth's surface, the energy in sunlight has fallen to about 1,000 watts per square meter at noon on a cloudless day. Averaged over the entire surface of the planet, 24 hours per day for a year, each square meter collects the approximate energy equivalent of almost a barrel of oil each year, or 4.2 kilowatt-hours of energy every day. In other words a whole lot of energy.

    However deserts, with very dry air and little cloud cover, receive the most sun—more than six kilowatt-hours per day per square meter. Northern climates, such as Boston, get closer to 3.6 kilowatt-hours. Sunlight varies by season as well, with some areas receiving very little sunshine in the winter. Seattle near where I'm located, in December gets only about 0.7 kilowatt-hours per day. It should also be noted that these figures represent the maximum available solar energy that can be captured and used, but solar collectors capture only a portion of this, depending on their efficiency. For example, a one square meter solar electric panel with an efficiency of 15 percent would produce about one kilowatt-hour of electricity per day in Arizona. So while using this energy source when and where it makes sense is great cars won't likely be the place to use it.

    Let's assume for a moment that you could actually replace an internal combustion engine car with a solar energy powered car, then you have the problem of energy storage and your a back at square one looking into the whole battery problem (range, recharge time, pollution, weight and cost) that makes cars like the Tesla impractical as candidates to replace today's cars. Then there is the fact that as of right now current solar cell efficiency can't go pass the 50% barrier on the most advanced solar cells and cells actually being sold are more like in the 12 -18% efficiency range. Nowhere close enough to replace an internal combustion engine as a power source for cars.

     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2013
  15. TonyCool

    TonyCool Viper Owner

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    Well extracting oil from the most recondite place on earth and producing gasoline from oil is not exactly what I would call an straight forward process, yet we managed to do it just fine. And while I agree using hydrogen as a power source implies some engineering challenges they are considerably easier to solve when compared to other engineering problems like efficient processing of solar energy, solar cell efficiency, battery efficiency etc...

    Since you work directly with it you must know that while difficult it is at least possible and doable today. You are right it's hard but the problem here is that other alternatives are even harder engineering problems. As I said before I never said this technology is flawless I just haven't heard of any other that could realistically replace internal combustion engines. It will probably take several decades to solve some of the challenges, create the required infrastructure, and mass produce vehicles with this technology. But I don't see us been technically able to solve any of the even harder engineering problems within a few centuries... Again if you know of a more suitable technology that could realistically replace internal combustion please bring it up.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2013
  16. TonyCool

    TonyCool Viper Owner

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    I'm not even going to bother to reply this one as it's obvious you didn't bother to read the whole thread.

    At this point I should probably say that I never intended to generate this heavy of a discussion. I was just looking into the future and wondering what it will bring...
     
  17. PeterMJ

    PeterMJ Enthusiast

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    You are familiar with history? You may want to look at what Nazi Germany did during WWII and technologies they developed many years ago. Reliance on natural sources of fues vs. actual shortages is not the same thing. Environmentalists love to use this excuse to promote their cause, convenient for them but far from reality.
     
  18. VYPR BYT 94

    VYPR BYT 94 Enthusiast

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  19. PeterMJ

    PeterMJ Enthusiast

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    And exactly what is the point of this thread? There are many other cars that are faster than viper, including RC cars.
     
  20. FikseGTS

    FikseGTS Enthusiast

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