Viper Magazine T-56 Trans Fluid Question

[Ron]

The latest issue of Viper Magazine states categorically that one should not use ATF in the Viper T-56 transmission.

While one could assume that they are referring only to T-56's that came with Castrol Syntorq (known as Mopor Synthetic Gear Lube) as the factory fill, it reminded me that I have yet to see "official" verification that it is OK to use Syntorq in older ATF factory filled T-56's. I know many do and I know many have stated that it's safe, but it sure would be nice to hear it from the company that is warranting the unit or the one that built it.

The issue is that Borg Warner T-56's (1997 on back as I remember) came with paper fiber blocker ring surfaces while the Tremac version of the T-56 comes with carbon fiber. Since only the Tremac version came with Syntorq factory filled the question is: <font color="blue"> "Has Dodge or Tremac ever publicly stated that it is safe to use Syntorq in older ATF equipped Viper T-56's?" or more specifically, "Are the Borg Warner paper fiber blockers and it's housing gaskets &amp; seals Syntorq safe?" </font>

As an aside, I've spoken with Tremac's tech support line on several occasions with quite ambiguous results. In addition, I've seen various references to using only anerobic sealers if Syntorq is used. Don't know if the Borg Warner T-56 used this type of sealant.


Thanks

 

[Steve-Indy]

That caught my eye also, Ron...it does need to be clarified...realizing that MANY have flushed the old "stuff" in favor of the "Syntorq".

FYI, the 95 manual says Dexron II-E
97 manual says Dexron II-E or III
98 manual says Dexron III
99-03 Manual says Mopar Synthetic Manual Transmission Lubricant 75w85 (MS9070)...and the owner's manual for 99 says "Castrol Syntorq".

It will be interesting to see if you get anything more than "armchair quarterback" responses to your question.

 

[95Viper]

When I took my 95 in to buy fluids the dealer sold me 75w-85 but could not confirm it was Castrol Syntorq. He said it was part #4874459. Now I wonder if I put the right stuff in??

 

[Ron]

Nothing to do with the Viper's T-56, but interesting nontheless....

"The overdrive is shipped without transmission fluid in the unit. Remove the 13mm fill plug on the back right side of the overdrive and add approximately 26 ounces of synthetic manual transmission fluid (GM part #12346190 or Mopar #0487-4459). Fill to the bottom threads of the plug. Gear Vendors specifically recommends GM# 12346190, or Mopar #0487-4459, and it should not be substituted.

Gear Vendors previously recommended Dexron II automatic transmission fluid for its overdrive units. It now recommends the GM synthetic manual transmission fluid for its overdrive units due to improved shift characteristics, and less thinning at temperature than Dexron automatic transmission fluid. Gear Vendors recommends that current installations of their overdrive change to the GM or Mopar synthetic manual transmission fluid."

 

[Ron]

Perhaps an easier question:

For anyone that has changed from Dexron to Castol Syntorq aka Mopar Synthetic transmission lube, have you noticed that a previously dry T-56 is now weeping oil?

Thanks

 

[RonC]

You know I have been wondering the same thing too after reading the article. So I called Chuck T. yesterday where he said you need to continue to use the Dexron III in the older xmissions. Heck I don't know. I wish somebody from Dodge would just state the requirements once and for all. It's just xmission fluid for crying out loud.

In any case, I changed my fluid last night with Mobil 1 Synthetic Dexron III ATF (Dexron III, Merc.. etc. compatable). I figure it is the next best thing.

Ron

 

[Ron]

Ron;

Unfortunately I believe that you did exactly the wrong thing. I have it on good authority that Mobil 1 synthetic Dexron will ruin your paper blocker rings thereby making it difficult to shift.

I would strongly suggest you change it out, replace with conventional Dexron run briefly and change again.

Anyone else like to comment on this?

 

[Toby]

Ron and everybody... what should I use in my 96? I assume Dexron III by the way it looks. I am going to do a complete fluid change on my Viper and the tranny fluid is on the list.

 

[99 R/T 10]

This is just way too confusing!!! I mean, what, ATF or gear oil? 75-90W or 75-85W? Synthetic or regular? I was going to switch it out with Castrol Syntorque, but now I'm not going to touch it until the next century, or until somebody clarify the exact oil we should use. What year T-56 is the break to use the Syntorque vs. ATF? way too confusing for just tranny oil!

 

[Steve 00RT/10]

The book on my 2000 says ATF fluid. When I took the skid plate off, there was a sticker on the tranny that said Castrol Syntorq was the factory fill. I filled it back up with Amsoil gear lube. The research I did said to fill it with whatever it came with--meaning ATF or gear lube. I would guess you may have a sticker on the tranny identifying what's in there. If not, It's pretty easy to tell the difference between gear lube and ATF --both in looks and smell.

Steve

 

[Matt M PA]

If memory serves me...the TSB for cars with NGR...the fix was to switch to synthetic.

 

[Tony Estes]

I think you are right Matt. There was a TSB that addressed this issue. Both my 96 RT/10 and 96 GTS had the fluid changed to the synthetic.

 

[Ron]

Clearly we need to see this TSB. All TSB's that I have seen for 1996 GTS's refer to a clutch and pressure plate change to address NGR. I assume sometime later, 1999 perhaps, there was a new TSB that referred to a fluid change.

What I'd love to see is whether that TSB refers to Vipers from 1992 on up (meaning all Borg Warner and Tremac produced units), or just 1998 on up?(Tremac only)

Until someone posts this TSB, I can't say for sure what the right fluid is other than just sticking to what it came from the factory with.

If someone has the TSB, I'd really appreciate seeing it. Please fax it to me at 317-587-9349.

Thanks!

One side note. While both Mobil 1 ATF and Castrol Syntorq are synthetic oils, from what I was told the Mobil 1 ATF was definitely not compatible with Borg Warner T-56 syncro's.

 

[RonC]

Ron;

Unfortunately I believe that you did exactly the wrong thing. I have it on good authority that Mobil 1 synthetic Dexron will ruin your paper blocker rings thereby making it difficult to shift.

I would strongly suggest you change it out, replace with conventional Dexron run briefly and change again.

Anyone else like to comment on this?

Thanks Ron. I think everyone on this board has a high regard for your opinions I sincerely hope you are wrong! I am amazed at how garbled this area can be.

Well, I checked with my tech (I might add is very well trusted and used very extensively with the AZ population) about this. He said...

1. The synthetic Dexron III is just fine for my transmission.
2. He currently installs the synthetic Mopar($25+ dollar per quart) oil in all of the transmissions, with no regard to year.

I just don't know what a person can do but trust the person who you entrust the car to. So with that, if anyone hears from a Dodge Engineer directly I guess I am settled for now.

However...The car is on jackstands right now, so I may just see how this further plays out.

Ron

 

[Tony Estes]

I think this might be the TSB. I called my Viper tech and he is going to try and find a copy of it and get back to me.


ATRATB9002006 FEB 90 A/T - Choosing the Right ATF

 

[Scorch]

My 1994 Service Manual (Chrysler Corp publication) recommends Dexron II-E. This is also marked on the trans near the fill plug. No way I'm using anything but.

 

[RonC]

Scorch,

You cannot buy Dexron II-E anymore. All Dexron III bottles will indicate they replace II-e.

At this juncture, I agree with you.

Ron

 

[Ron]

RonC, Thanks and I hope I am wrong too.

Over the years, I've asked a lot of questions and researched many of these issues. Unfortunately, I don't always remember my source and that is the case with my comments on Mobil 1 ATF. I will dig into my files and hopefully find the documentation that supports my claim.

 

[Marv S]

TSB# NO: 21-06-98
*PARTS REQUIRED:**

4 of #04874459 Transmission Lubricant, SAE 75W (MS-9070)(Quart)
1 of #04275086 Label, Authorized Modification


M/T - Gear Noise Explanation

NO: 21-06-98

GROUP: Transmission

DATE: Apr. 3, 1998

SUBJECT:
Neutral Gear Rattle With Clutch Engaged

THIS BULLETIN SUPERSEDES TECHNICAL SERVICE BULLETIN 06-01-97 DATED MARCH 14, 1997, WHICH SHOULD BE NOTED IN THE 1997 TECHNICAL SERVICE BULLETIN MANUAL (PUBLICATION NO. 81-699-98004). THE PARTS AND REPAIR PROCEDURE HAVE BEEN CHANGED. ALL CHANGES ARE MARKED WITH **ASTERISKS**.

**MODELS:**
1994 - 1998 (SR) Viper

SYMPTOM/CONDITION:

A light chatter or rattling noise from the clutch housing or transmission area with the clutch engaged and the transmission in neutral. The noise will diminish with the clutch disengaged.

Clearances in the transmission gear teeth are incorporated into the design for component durability. There will always be a slight amount of gear mesh noise. No attempts should be made to disassemble the transmission for this condition.

WARNING :NO ATTEMPTS SHOULD BE MADE TO TIGHTEN THE CLEARANCES BETWEEN THE TRANSMISSION INTERNAL COMPONENTS.

NOTE : WHILE THIS REPAIR IS HELPFUL IN REDUCING NEUTRAL GEAR RATTLE, IT WILL NOT ELIMINATE IT. IN ADDITION, THE NEW FLUID WILL CAUSE SOME INCREASED SHIFTING EFFORT AT 20°F AND BELOW. THIS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL THE TRANSMISSION REACHES NORMAL OPERATING TEMPERATURES. PLEASE INFORM THE OWNER OF THIS POSSIBLE CONDITION BEFORE BEGINNING THE REPAIR.

**DIAGNOSIS:**

Road test the vehicle to warm the vehicle powertrain. Drive in 3rd to 5th gear to help bring the transmission to operating temperatures. Stop the vehicle and apply the parking brake. With the transmission in neutral and the engine running at idle, depress and release the clutch pedal. Listen for a chatter or rattling noise whenever the clutch pedal is released. If the noise is diminished when the clutch is depressed, proceed to the Repair Procedure.

*PARTS REQUIRED:**

4 of #04874459 Transmission Lubricant, SAE 75W (MS-9070) (Quart)
1 of #04275086 Label, Authorized Modification

**REPAIR PROCEDURE:**

This bulletin involves draining the transmission fluid and replacing it with a new lubricant.

1. Drain the transmission fluid by following the procedure in the Viper Service Manual (Publication 81-270-7150) page 21-3.

2. Type the necessary information into the Authorized Modification Label and attach the label near the VECI label.

POLICY: Reimbursable within the provisions of the warranty.

TIME ALLOWANCE:

**Labor Operation No: 21-00-10-95 0.4 Hrs.**

FAILURE CODE: P8 - New Part

 

[Ron]

Marv;

Thanks! Finally the confirmation I was looking for.

Quite curious why the TSB doesn't address 1992 &amp; 1993 M/Y. Wonder what the differences are in the earlier transmissions.

Would also be curious as to whether the Syntorq is used just for NGR issues or also for improved durability. Even today, all Tremac T-56's are factory filled with ATF except Vipers.

Will still try to find the Mobil 1 info.

 

[RonC]

Well for me possibly a bullet dodged! Talk about timing!

Alas, my beloved Mobil 1 ATF is in the hazardous waste container. Since we really don't know all the reasons behind the change except for the NGR, I am back to regular Dex III until we know if the noise is the only reason. Since I don't track my car (Ok, like ViperMad a Poser!), a few more miles with original ATF type should not be a problem.

Thanks to all!

Ron


P.S. Thanks Marv!

 

[Steve-Indy]

THANKS, Marv !!!

 

[95Viper]

Sweet! I put the 4874459 in my 95 last year. Now I feel better.

 

[Ron]

An update on the Mobil 1 ATF suitability question.

While I have found many that have used Mobil 1 ATF in T-56's and claim to have experienced significant shifting problems that did not go away when they switched back to conventional ATF, I have yet to find an official source that states you should not use it in a T-56.

I spoke with Tremac today and they say it is OK. Also spoke with Mobil and of course they say anything that can use Dexron III can use Mobil 1 ATF. I have a call out to Borg Warner but will not have their comments until Monday at the earliest.

 

[Ron]

Closure on Mobil 1 ATF suitability in T-56

Finally spoke with a Borg Warner guy and unfortunately all of the T-56 engineers have either retired or went over to Tremac. He himself has a vague memory about problems with "synthetic" fluids, but doesn't know if it was Mobil 1 specifically.

End of the line on this one. Results = Inconclusive