VIPER VS VETTE LONG TERM

[stevnso117]

You guys may have already discussed this but i searched the forums and didn`t find it.

I have heard tons of people saying how they unload their vipers round 20000 miles. Why is this? I mean i have known of several people that have kept there vettes and put 100000 + miles on them with no problems. I just bought my viper it has 23000 miles on it and i was just wondering if i should be expecting her to self destruct some time in the near future or do the vipers also hold up well long term? I`ve never really seen many viper that had over 50000 miles so i don`t know. I`ve only had mine one week and im just trying to learn all i can. Let me know if there is any special precations i should take. I would think that a viper would be just as good as a vette long term but all the hopla about unloading them made me nervous.

 

[dwhitt]

I usually unload my Vipers in the high teens in terms of mileage - really due to depreciation/market value considerations and nothing more - long-term reliability has never concerned me with the Viper - my cars have all been very solid and problem free

 

[GARY J]

there are several guys around with 50k+ on their snakes. They seem to do just fine. I wouldn't worry if I were you. BTW mine is about to turn 20 and I have no plans of selling anytime soon.

 

[ViperJoe]

Most of the time to get another VIPER

 

[OutThere]

I agree that the Viper has become a much more reliable car, capable of 10,000 miles per year without great concern but if you are comparing the two it's no contest. You will take a BIG hit in resale with the Viper because there are so many garage kings/weekend/collector cars that those set the market and the depreciation on the high mileage cars really accelerates because of it.

The quality of the C5 Vette is now outstanding. I have about 16,000 miles on my 2002 Coupe and it's given me zero problems. Nothing shakes, rattles, etc.. everything in the car has always worked and it still looks showroom new. All I have done is have the oil changed 3 times. I can't say for sure whether or not a 2002 Viper owner with 16,000 miles would be saying the same thing 2 years later but I tend to doubt it. My Gen1.... No way. Though, I seemed to have gotten pretty lucky with my 95. It has about 28,000 miles and in the 3 years & 10,000 miles I have owned it the only problem I have had was a dead battery last winter.

I've not owned a SRT yet but I drove one and checked out several and the quality seems substantially higher than previous models. Once they workout ALL these production "issues" that is. But it seems you are asking about a < Gen3 Viper.

 

[SNKEBIT]

there are alot of vipers out there with 50k plus and no problems, reliability is no issue, they just keep goin'.
too many out there trying to keep resale high so they don't lose a precious dollar!!!! It's a car, drive the damn thing, it's not an investment!!!!!! Of course, the less miles, the more it's worth. They won't fall apart, drive it!!!!!

 

[joe117]

I have 106k on my 94 RT. I know of at least two cars with more miles than mine. The engine was changed in mine, before I owned it, at 95k due to head gaskets. When I got my car it needed quite a bit of minor mechanical work. The clutch was the major item.
I also have a 96 Vette. It has 95k on it and it has been a very reliable car. Better than the Viper at the same miles.

I think most of the people unloading their Vipers at fairly low miles, are driven by the big hit that the Viper is said to take when it has lots of miles.

Right now I think that is changing a little. I think a high miles 94 Viper, say over 50k, is selling for only about 12% less than a very low miles version of the same car.

Of course, there are lots of guys who have delusions of how much their low miles gen1 cars are worth.
Things have changed quite a bit in the Viper market in the last two years.

 

[J DAWG]

Like was said earlier. Usually people sell because of depreciation or to get a different one.



BTW, Shane and Joe what is the significance of "117"

 

[Lee00blacksilverGTS]

Lot's of convoluted logic here. The comparisons above are of a C4 and a C5 against Gen 1 Vipers. Outthere compares his 2002 C5 with only 16,000 miles to his 95 Gen 1 and seems to infer he has had more problems with his Viper but refers only to a dead battery. And the Gen 1 has more miles at 28,000, hmmmm, I think the Viper has done well for outthere! He also says a 2002 Viper owner would not be able to claim as good a repair record at 16,000 miles as he does on his 2002 C5. THAT is simply not true, my 2000 GTS has had nothing but oil changes, a nail in a tire, and a dead battery due to MY neglect. He also infers that a Viper with higher mileage will take a big hit in depreciation. No, it will take a NORMAL hit, just like a regularly driven vette. Joe seems to be saying that a 94 Gen 1 that he bought at 95,000 miles had more problems then his 96 Vette at 95k. The difference here may be the care that Joe gives his cars. If he put most of the 95k on the Vette then no suprise it developed fewer problems. His Gen 1 that he bought at 95k (very brave move by the way!) would be expected to be a mystery mobile as who knows how the car was treated. So the unknown variable in that case may be the prior owner. I would also expect the clutch on a Viper to give out more often then a 96 C4, think of the torque difference.
I personally think that Vipers will prove to have much better reliability than a Vette over the long term, they are hand built and they have far fewer systems to have problems. Dodge has also gone to the effort of creating the core of Viper techs, so when a problem does arise you probably have a better chance of getting it fixed right than you do at a chevy dealer, anybody ever heard of a Corvette tech? Nope you get the same idiot that just worked on a cavalier.
Iv'e owned over 30 Corvettes, still own one, my take is the Gen 2 and Gen 3 Viper has a much higher build quality than a C4 or C5. And EVERY car manufacturer has come a LONG way since 95 to improve quality. Nobody shoud try to compare a 94/95 Gen 1 to a 2002C5. Remember the only quality being actually measured these days is by JD Powers, (other than us sitting around yapping our opinions). Now look at the number of systems a Corvette has to go wrong vs. a Viper. The statistical odds have to tell you that, apples to apples, (Not a 2002 C5 vs a Gen 1), the fact that the Viper is a high priced exotic vehicle, hand built in very limited quantities on a line that does not move if something is wrong vs. the lower priced commoddity car, robot built in high quantities on a fast line........If JD Power did do the cars side by side the Viper is going to be the higher quality car, and that has also been my ownership experience. Flat out horror stories with C4s and only slightly better with C5s.
And resale should always come out in favor of the Viper, simply due to low build numbers and the rarity of certain colors, AND the fact that due to the high price the demographics of the buyers lead to the car being a 3rd or 4th car and not driven daily...therefore lower mileage cars are inevitable, they sell for bigger numbers and to some degree even help to drag up the value of the higher mile cars. The higher mile cars are selling for remarkably high prices in my opinion, I would venture that Joe could sell his car for very close to $30,000. I know I won't insult him with that because he mentioned something in that area a few days back. Now try a low miles gen 1....I think the 12% figure mentioned is a good one, Viper resale values are much better than we sometimes think they are.

 

[OutThere]

My God. How many times do I need to type "I can't say for sure" and "I tend to doubt it". If you have an everyday driver that demonstrates differently just present it. Why be such a **** while doing so?

I own each so I am talking definitively about my cars. The only inference I made is that I consider my Corvette to be a WAY better car in terms of everyday, high mileage handling quality and potential repair costs. The considerations you take into account when considering an everyday car.

And perhaps Joe's issues weren't related to ownership care. Are you suggesting it cost less to keep any Viper on the road for 95,000 miles than it does a Corvette? Yeah, OK.

No way if I drove my 95 everyday would I be saying how problem free it is. It would cost prob 3 times as much to keep on the road for an equal amount of miles as a Corvette. Not to mention it's not meant to be an everyday car. A 95 Corvette offered WAY more to the everyday driver than my 95 Viper does, especially a ZR-1 (though the Z was way overpriced). It's not even close. The Viper is a much better all around sports car, however. Again, not even close. I also owned a 94 Vette, back in 96-97, so again I am comparing and speaking from experience.

And I agree with some of what you said about resale. My Corvette cost me $42,500 in Dec-01 and approx. 24 months later I would be thrilled to get $34,000 for it, after less than normal miles. That's 20% in < 2 years with low mileage comparable to other daily drivers. I guess I should have expected it but it still *****. The car is perfect, still looks, smells, and drives brand new. But, no one told me to buy it off the showroom.

However... some of the late model GTS seem to be taking some serious hits on resale even without a lot of miles. Especially the ACR. I guess that's because the SRT offers so much more for less money brand new. No wonder all you GTS boy can't stand the SRT. A new 2002 GTS ACR was $90,000 new and if you tried to sell one today with 16,000 miles you'd be very lucky to get $60,000 for it. Very lucky as I see dealers asking $65,000 for them with 5,000. 20% vs 33%. That's a big difference. What the resale market is telling us is the GTS was overpriced.

My personal take is no car you plan to drive should ever be considered an investment, so prepare to take a loss proportional to what you desire to drive and how long you plan to drive it.

 

[Lee00blacksilverGTS]

Outthere said..."Why be such a **** while doing so?"

In what way did you think I was a ****?

Outthere said...."I own each"

You must have missed the parts where I said I owned both right now and I had owed 30 Vettes. I've FORGOTTEN more about Vettes than you will probably ever know. See now I AM being a ****, see the difference?

Outthere said...."No way if I drove my 95 every day would I be saying how problem free it was"

My point that you seem to have so eloquently missed (see NOW I'm being a **** again, learn the difference) was you should not compare your Gen 1 to a 2002 C5. I said all car companies have improved their quality since then.

Outthere said..."No wonder all you GTS boys hate the SRT"

What makes you think I hate the SRT? I bought one! Now who's the ****?
Thanks for agreeing with me on resale, don't be so thin skinned, you did not see Joe getting upset and I argued the same points to him. It was a nice discussion until you called me a **** and then, sigh....it's the internet so I can't take that right? Now let it go.

 

[Martin D]

I have 55k on my Venom now.....
I have blown through at least 25 bottles of nos.

No major issues with the car - not even the cluth. (time to go knock on wood)

Oh, and by the way, Corvettes are ***.....

 

[OutThere]

Yes I was very upset.... just climbing the walls.

I didn't say every GTS owner hates the SRT but the vast majority of so called Viper supporters who have been blasting the car since its 1st auto show are GTS owners.

And you can't miss something eloquently. You can, however, articulate something eloquently and if you had perhaps the reader would understand your convoluted logic.

See I can be a **** too!

 

[99 R/T 10]

I have 106k on my 94 RT. I know of at least two cars with more miles than mine. The engine was changed in mine, before I owned it, at 95k due to head gaskets. When I got my car it needed quite a bit of minor mechanical work. The clutch was the major item.

No kidding, just did my clutch and 9 hours later all done I feel for guys like Chuck Tator that are getting screwed by low time given for a certain jobs. Just out of curiosity Joe, how long did it take you?


Any Steven, I am pushing 50K and the clutch was my biggest issue I had to work through. Anything else was taken care of by the warranty. If you don't have one call Chuck Tator at 914-763-3136. Still going to Montgomery for the races?

Mike

 

[OutThere]

Is that a stock clutch? 50,000 miles is something....

How much is a new clutch including labor? With 28,000 miles I was thinking it may be my first semi-major issue.

Did DC change the engine for you after 95,000 miles??

 

[Walt McFarland]

There's been a good deal of recent attention paid to Paolo's supercharged GTS. Before he had Jason Heffner supercharge the car, I think Paolo said he had over 70K miles on it. In reworking the engine for the super charger Jason mentioned it was still in good shape internally.

Paolo can give specifics, but the bottom line is that these cars are tough. My 02 has 10,300 miles on it, drive it every day, in all weather and not a hint of a problem. In researching the Viper saga, I noted that the original Gen I engine had a design spec requiring 300 continuous hours at redline without failure. Not too shabby. Let's enjoy.

 

[jimandela]

I consider a Gen 2 viper bullet proof.
Some guys beat the crap out of them and they still keep running!!!
Awesome Gen2 V-10 that is a proven winner and a kick bass tranny!

Power windows, lumbar support, power mirrors, CD

what more can you want?

 

[Gavin]

Clutch at 20K relax - 42,000 miles a "ton" of track events and my clutch is fine - did blow the rear end and tranny up tho................gee doesn't that logically tell me that the weak link sure ain't the clutch.

 

[Vic]

I put 80,000 miles on my C4 Vette, and had these problems.
1. Exhaust manifold came loose, fixed under warranty.
2. Three separate and distinct electrical problems, all due to workmanship at the factory, ie: cable tie pulled too tight, broke wire inside of insulation, stuff like that. Fixed them myself, with the aid of the electrical manual.
3. Ignition coil pack gave up, stranded me on the freeway, fixed under warranty. Good thing I was close to home!
4. Replaced antenna several times out of warranty. Got so good at it, had the task down to just minutes. GM replacement was made in Japan, which surprised me, since Japan usually makes some good stuff. But that antenna mechanism was nothing but cr*p.
5. Minor adjustments of deck and hood release cables, normal due to cable stretch. Surprising to see so many C4s going down the road with their convertible tops askew, because the owner didn't know how to adjust the latch cables.
6. Center glovebox trim cracked, where my elbow leaned on it. Never fixed that, just sold it that way.
7. Electronic air conditioning controls quit working, took off front circuit board, cleaned touch key pad contacts, reassembled, worked fine after that.

I might have had more problems with the Vette if I had tracked it, like I do my Viper.

My 2001 GTS has 20,000 miles, and I have had these problems,
1. Water pump impeller sliping on shaft, bad run of pumps in 2001, fixed under warranty, never came back.
2. Shift lever wouldn't return to center, when pulled to the left, if in nuetral. Not really a big deal, but annoying. Fixed under warranty. Replacement tranny is balky going into 1st, synchro seems a little sticky or something. Viper tech says he can't replicate it, but I'll take it back there, when I have time. Borg-Warner was a good company, but when Allied bought them, they moved the plant to Mexico, and now the "Tremec", as it is now known, is a pile of dog spit, in my humble opinion. Same tranny in many other cars, so not peculiar to the Viper.
3. Trim pieces inside the car crack easily, kinda shabby. But fixed under warranty, no problem. I took steps to prevent the same cracks on the new pieces by shimming behind them in the areas where they are subjected to stress from my elbow, etc.
4. Right rear wheel hub was making a clunking noise under acceleration. Replaced under warranty.
5. Ball joint rubber grease retainer boot cracked, probably cause track time subjects them to massive heat. Replaced under warranty. Now I know to do what the road racers do, and wrap the ball joints in heat shielding.
5. Throttle position sensor was putting out too little voltage, fooling the PCM into thinking the throttle wasn't open as far as it really was. This threw the mixture off, and resulted in a "multiple misfires" fault code. New throttle position sensor fixed the problem, thanks to John Horton of West Coast Vipers. Saved my day at the track!
6. Top quality "Alpine" stereo quits playing CD's on a long drive. Let it cool for a while, and it plays again. Hey, that reminds me, I gotta take it in for that.

I really liked my Vette, and was very pleased with it. If it had more power, I might not have sold it at all.

But the Viper is singularly THE best car ownership experience I have had, out of the 20 or so new cars that me and my wifey have bought. Its the most dramatic, most exciting, best performing, wildest looking, most head turning, sexiest, most beautiful and agressive, unique, most satisfying car to own that I have ever had. Whatever you say about Vipers, you gotta admit, that Dodge put something great in the hands of the American automotive enthusiast.

 

[joe117]

Why am I joe117?
I'm joe117 because that was always my number whan I raced stock cars.
Here's one.

You must be registered for see images

 

[joe117]

The questions about my engine and clutch,
The engine was replaced under warranty at 95k miles, before I bought the car at 104k miles. It was a one owner car.
The paperwork says "replaced engine". The Dodge dealer charged the warranty company over $15k for the change.

I don't do much of my own car work anymore. Believe me, I've done enough of it of all kinds to know how if I wanted to. Now I would rather just pay someone to do my work.

I have hands on work to do in another field that takes up all the time I want to spend in the shop. No more car work for Joe.

So I didn't change the clutch myself or do any of the other work on my Viper. I did do the interior things, seats dash steering wheel. The small stuff.

 

[GTSnake]

Let's look at the maturity of the car line. In automotive reliability terms the longer a car has been in production the better the quality. Naturally the more time you have to perfect the breed the better it will be. From the Gen I to II to III each successive generation has been substantially improved.

The Viper has been in existence for what 12 years? The Vette has been around since '53 so which car line has been around longer? There's no doubt that the Vette will have better reliability history because:
1)They have the sales volume to support more R&D. They build more Vettes in one year than all the Vipers in history.
2)They've been around so much longer to work out all the bugs. Yes they have changed in design radically over the years but they also have had a lot of time to develope it.

So if you want to compare reliability it's apples to oranges.

If you want a middle of the road, high volume, granny sports car you're better off with a Vette. I'll stick to my unique drop jaw, eye balls in the back of my head, monster mobile any day.

 

[OutThere]

Wow! DC paid for a new engine with 95,000 miles on it??? That's something. Can't ask for more than that from your maker. Funny how some others have had issues with much smaller issues.

 

[YouWish]

My God. How many times do I need to type "I can't say for sure" and "I tend to doubt it". If you have an everyday driver that demonstrates differently just present it. Why be such a **** while doing so?

I own each so I am talking definitively about my cars. The only inference I made is that I consider my Corvette to be a WAY better car in terms of everyday, high mileage handling quality and potential repair costs. The considerations you take into account when considering an everyday car.

And perhaps Joe's issues weren't related to ownership care. Are you suggesting it cost less to keep any Viper on the road for 95,000 miles than it does a Corvette? Yeah, OK.

No way if I drove my 95 everyday would I be saying how problem free it is. It would cost prob 3 times as much to keep on the road for an equal amount of miles as a Corvette. Not to mention it's not meant to be an everyday car. A 95 Corvette offered WAY more to the everyday driver than my 95 Viper does, especially a ZR-1 (though the Z was way overpriced). It's not even close. The Viper is a much better all around sports car, however. Again, not even close. I also owned a 94 Vette, back in 96-97, so again I am comparing and speaking from experience.

And I agree with some of what you said about resale. My Corvette cost me $42,500 in Dec-01 and approx. 24 months later I would be thrilled to get $34,000 for it, after less than normal miles. That's 20% in < 2 years with low mileage comparable to other daily drivers. I guess I should have expected it but it still *****. The car is perfect, still looks, smells, and drives brand new. But, no one told me to buy it off the showroom.

However... some of the late model GTS seem to be taking some serious hits on resale even without a lot of miles. Especially the ACR. I guess that's because the SRT offers so much more for less money brand new. No wonder all you GTS boy can't stand the SRT. A new 2002 GTS ACR was $90,000 new and if you tried to sell one today with 16,000 miles you'd be very lucky to get $60,000 for it. Very lucky as I see dealers asking $65,000 for them with 5,000. 20% vs 33%. That's a big difference. What the resale market is telling us is the GTS was overpriced.

My personal take is no car you plan to drive should ever be considered an investment, so prepare to take a loss proportional to what you desire to drive and how long you plan to drive it.

When will the GTS bashing stop? You have major issues...

 

[NOMERCY]

Oh, and by the way, Corvettes are ***.....

You are pretty COOL

 

[OutThere]

It's not bashing YouWish... not in this post anyway. Those are actual stats. Don't blame me because a $90,000 GTS is now worth $60,000 or less. It was over-priced.

But since you asked, the GTS bashing will stop when the SRT bashing stops.

 

[GR8_ASP]

OutThere, who would buy a GTS for $90k? I can't remember the list price but I thought it was mid 70's. The ACR was higher, but also discounted more. When you compare the resale versus purchase price try to compare apples and apples. Actual purchase price versus the resale cost, for like models.

And why bash any Viper version?

 

[Vreracing]

I've been trying to restrain myself.

I keep getting drawn in.

Show strength I tell myself.

This is one of those threads that's designed to inflame.

I will not rise to the bait!

 

[Paolo Castellano]

There's been a good deal of recent attention paid to Paolo's supercharged GTS. Before he had Jason Heffner supercharge the car, I think Paolo said he had over 70K miles on it. In reworking the engine for the super charger Jason mentioned it was still in good shape internally.

Paolo can give specifics, but the bottom line is that these cars are tough. My 02 has 10,300 miles on it, drive it every day, in all weather and not a hint of a problem. In researching the Viper saga, I noted that the original Gen I engine had a design spec requiring 300 continuous hours at redline without failure. Not too shabby. Let's enjoy.

Walt, you are correct about the mileage on my 1996 GTS. It had 72,889 Miles on the clock before the engine was pulled. The main bearings still looked brand new, the cylinder walls still had the cross hatch pattern from honing. there were a couple of scuffs on the cylinder walls and the cam. The crank was in very good condition. I think one of the rod bearings had a scar on it. Jason said it probably happened when the car was started for the first time. The car was road raced maybe 5-6 times for 10 or so laps at a time. The car had gone 190+ many, many times(Of course on a closed course) and was driven the way it is intended to be driven and held up very well. I just had the motor rebuilt to handle the kind of power Jason Heffner was going to be adding to the car. So far, after around 5,000 miles on the motor with almost 900 corrected RWHP the compression between all the cylinders is almost perfect. The car has done standing miles, 200+ and, of course stood the torture of " The Grandma Test" For Sport Compact Car Magazine. Whic, according to Tom Welch, is the "Ultimate Standard" By which all cars should be measured! LOL! Sorry Tom, I could not resist!

 

[Fishtail]

I'm not on my first Viper so ownership can vary between Viper owners. I think you'll find many Viper owners that own several cars at once. I don't think the same about Corvette owners to say the least. I have several cars in my corral but my Viper has been the weapon of choice. I've owned several Vettes before Viper ownership. I wouldn't trade a Viper for a Vette, but I would trade a Vette for a Viper .

The low miles on Vipers are not because they won't withstand punishment.
I see people trade them in with low miles because they don't want to suffer depreciation. It seems like 20,000 miles and under is the norm before the resale value goes down, then they seem to level off.

I bought my car to drive and race it and that's exactly what I've been doing. I think I've racked almost 8,000 miles within a few months since Doug Levin almost DOUBLED the horsepower on the stock bottom end with the cast pistons. I've raced this car every weekend and run the cowpoo out of it and this car takes everything I throw at it. The engine, transmission, clutch, rear end holds every ounce of power and has proven to be a top notch car! Nothing compares to the Viper

-Lou