Why all of the Tuner Heckling????

[Tom Welch]

I go to the other brands forums and its very rare to see anyone bashing their tuner industry, are things that bad in the viper community? What kind of statement is this to the over 1 MILLION MONTHLY VISITORS of this website?

Im relatively new to the viper tuner limelight, just celebrating our first year in business, and Im pleased to say that the overwhelming amount of our customers and viper owners responses to myself and my products has been a positive and fullfilling experience. Not to say that I haven't had a few less than desireable customers/circumstances.

Im fortunate to be able to persue my viper business as a secondary line of work.......stemming strictly from my love of the car, 20 year history of race winnning performance upgrades for mopars and dedication to offer more performance for LESS $$$.
But its not the case for some others. Remember that these tuners are working every day modding cars, doing engine upgrades, body panels, suspension changes, R&D, etc........and they are making a living off of the hobby dollars of others. Think about that for a moment. Hobby dollars!

Everyone who knows me knows that Im pretty vocal and open with my comments....even if Im wrong I openly apologize. I just don't see this forum as a place to degrade those in our industry, some of whom were the founders of the viper aftermarket.

I understand the freedom of speech gig as thats what my own message forum is all about......and i can't think of the right words other than to say something just doesn't seem right about these negative posts. Don't take this wrong, as Im not trying to hide from any customers of my own!, and we all need to stay informed.

A suggestion:

Have a vendor arena where vendors(tuners) are listed and have a monthly rating system that keeps track of customer satisfaction. Customers can email to the moderators their purchases from the tuners and rate their experience. Should a prospective customer want to speak with a previous customer of a given tuner he can email from that tuners rating list any previous customer that submitted a rating.

This will gradually **** out any tuners that continue to displease customers, and will show by actual customer input, what their experiences were.........and all that will be seen by viewers of this board is the tuners rating. All pertinant information regarding specific customer relations will be submitted from customer to customer.

Any thoughts as to the above????

OEM dealers have used rating systems like this for several years. GM calls it CSI. Chrysler calls it 5 star, Ford now has Blue Oval. Customers submit ratings of the dealerships performance with regards to previous purchases, service work, etc. The results of these surveys dictate the amount of incentives that the dealer receives from the OEM....and can greatly affect the dealers bottom line if CSI falls below standards.

Just some food for thought.......as usual my board is always available for any of my customers to bash the hell out of me at their will! LOL

Tom
Http://btrviper.com

 

[Gerald]

Hi Tom,

Try SENDING a TUNER 20k to 30k of your money and you'll quickly retract your words (based on what other ppl are saying)....

Glad all is going great for you. Your a good guy and a great racer. Enjoy meeting you time to time. I've also had negative dealings with person in question, but only for a small amount....
(But I must say, in his defense, he did send me a catback exhaust for my troubles. And it was a fine product)


Gerald

 

[Mark Red GTS Cooper]

Tom,

Because a few tuners have taken hard earned money and did not follow through.

I am a Hennessey victim, I had my Viper 3 days and went with Hennessey because if the magazine write ups and such. I took 1 phone call and me giving him my CC number to realize that I was taken for 5.5K.

As far as Vendor bashing, it seems like Hennessey is the only one that is getting bashed.

Yes there are the drones that follow Hennessey like sheep to a slaughter, but he only has to screw over one person for me to loose confidence.

When HMS tried to screw me out of my money, I posted, Viper owners cam out of the wood work to tell me about the issues. Ok, 1 or 2 bad experiences can be chalked up, but you have to be blind to not see this type of behavior is a pattern , and like I said, there are the Viper owners who look at him like a god, and he can do no wrong but if look at the facts and not the HP he can make or product he sells all you have is bad business and broken promises.

Am I bashing HMS, no, am I telling a story of my experience yes, would I ever do business with him or any one like him never.

Mark

 

[Marc Lublin]

Mark, I don't believe we have seen anything about your experience on the Neg. thread. I hope this thread will make it to some kind on archive easily viewable to anyone considering modifications. Please post it.

Tom, sorry I do want to respond to your statement. I need some time to digest it. I think you make some valid points and maybe some system should be started. I am running out for the evening in a few minutes, so when I have a chance tomorrow I will sit down and give it some thought and get back to you.

Have a good night all!

 

[FikseGTS]

I hope that the poll that I tried to implement didn't come across as tuner bashing.... if it did, it was NOT my intention....

I have never dealt with HMS, or even know ANYONE who ever has..... yes, I've been on this board for a while and have seen both good and bad stories....

I choose HMS because, frankly, they have been in the spotlight lately....

In my previous poll post, John wrote a sarcastic comment which seemed directed towards me talking about "class-act".... well from what I have read (even if only one instance is true), John should be the last one calling the "class-act" card on anyone....

All I was trying to do was to get a sense of what the Viper community thought about HMS... thats all...

I have a poll ready to post which includes most of the Viper tuners listed on this site.... If its not welcome, I won't post it....

I don't want to be blacklisted from all of the Viper tuners!!


Brooks

 

[jamie furman]

I have never had any work done by hms so I cannot comment on that aspect,but I think you would have to be blind not to realize the guys a marketing genious.

 

[Tom Welch]

Scott,

Your point is well taken. Maybe customers need to consider things like performance bonds on these "big ticket" upgrades. For those who don't know what performance bonds are: upfitters have a predetermined amount of time to complete a project, if the time is extended past the determined date a penalty is paid by the upfitter to the customer for his extended wait. I have seen these bonds done all kinds of different ways. By the day, month, week, hour, you name it. They are very common when dealing with municipalities and/or large companies and the government.

Back to my original post, are there any thoughts on some kind of rating system for the tuners. There are not that many viper tuners. The ratings could be listed on this site and maybe even in the viper quarterly for all to see.

take care,

Tom,
Http://btrviper.com

 

[getbit]

performance bonds are common and essential in the construction business. It gives the customer some leverage and keeps the builder on time...or else! Contracts are signed when building a house, why not a car. For this hobby, the house could be cheaper and quicker to build! Performance bonds sound pretty good, Tom.

 

[FikseGTS]

the performance bond is a great idea..... will ANY of the tuners that build the 30k+ packages that will do this? probably not....

why? because for each customer that will demand this, there are a bunch that won't.... why would they bother...

Brooks

 

[getbit]

Give them a chance...
They may come around. Obviously Viper owners are demanding more assurances and this may be a win/win situation. May require a minimum order or increase of packages to cover cost of bond purchase.

 

[Gavin]

Spending these amounts one should do a substantial amount of research (this website provides substantial amounts of information) and make choices based on that research, then be responsible and live with those choices. If they were mistakes then learn from them.

To overpay, or make some other dastardly error, and then "bash" the tuner seems to me - the wrong person is taking the heat.

To "whine" about the purchase is the same.
Then..
If you didn't do the research...... well.

Seperate from all that, if you pay for a product and it is not delivered under the terms of the purchase, I believe the "tuner" has opened him or herself up for the facts to be posted on a site such as this - operative word here - FACTS.

Terms of the purchase can be verbal, if you have confidence in the "tuner." - Written if you have no experience with a tuner and or the money involved is more than you are willing to risk on the deal.A credit card company is more likely to back you, and credit your card if there is a problem, if there is a written agreement with delivery dates.
After reading some of the horror stories on this site I felt I needed to move carefully....
My Story
I purchased from a tuner - I had no experience with this person or the company - checked out postings on this site and found a lot of positive comments and nothing negative - never the less - I made a modest purchase.
Service - impeccable (better than my spelling)
Delivery - as promised.
Communications from Tuner - frequent - nothing dropped out

I made a second and larger purchase - which I was not happy with - just my taste, product was what the tuner said it was but seing it in the flesh so to speak, it wasn't for me. - tuner handled the refund promptly and was in communication.

Made a third and, for me a purchase for an amount I would not like to kiss off. Again smooth sailing. No problems.

Now I'm ready to make my big $ buy.
Emailed a number of questions - immediate responses with answers to my satisfaction - a lot of support from the tuner.
Spent the dough - ordered the parts - delivered on time, with emails keeping me updated through the waiting period.
A product change during the waiting time - more emails giving me choices.
Had the parts installed - they worked as promised.
more emails from tuner, did everything go well? now to me - this is someone who cares....

I had more questions regarding performance - emails answered timely each and every time.

By this time I feel I have a relationship with this person and his organization. This is person whom I trust. This trust was earned by this tuner over a number of purchases over a period of time.
I was treated superbly whether it was a small purchase or a large purchase. Read on.

I made a small purchase from a second tuner- promised delivery - never happened - took weeks to get a very small and inexpensive item. That "tuner" will not get any of my business - they failed the first modest test.Do I need to advise my fellow viper owners who this is - nope, that has been done by plenty of others already.

 

[Gerald]

I've had my car at a tuner before and when I got the car back I can FULLY understand what kind of work goes into doing these things. Going over the alotted time was painstaking but well worth it. Every bracket, tensioner, etc was CUSTOM made and fit for my car. Sure a tuner can get a car out in any time. BUT, do you REALLY want that done to your car? Or do you want it done right? I would imagine done right.
Now if a tuner held my car for an absolutley unreasonable amount of time w/ not taking calls, explaining himself etc, I would get jumpy. Most tuners are perfectionists and when you get your car back , you'll understand.
Our motors are Chevy or Ford run of the mill small blocks w/ parts at EVERy corner speed shop. They are Viper motors, with every upgrade from valves, rocker arms, pistons, heads being SPECIAL made.

my .02

 

[Ernie J]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>After reading some of the horror stories on this site I felt I needed to move carefully....
My Story
I purchased from a tuner - I had no experience with this person or the company - checked out postings on this site and found a lot of positive comments and nothing negative - never the less - I made a modest purchase.
Service - impeccable (better than my spelling)
Delivery - as promised.
Communications from Tuner - frequent - nothing dropped out

I made a second and larger purchase - which I was not happy with - just my taste, product was what the tuner said it was but seing it in the flesh so to speak, it wasn't for me. - tuner handled the refund promptly and was in communication.

Made a third and, for me a purchase for an amount I would not like to kiss off. Again smooth sailing. No problems.

Now I'm ready to make my big $ buy.
Emailed a number of questions - immediate responses with answers to my satisfaction - a lot of support from the tuner.
Spent the dough - ordered the parts - delivered on time, with emails keeping me updated through the waiting period.
A product change during the waiting time - more emails giving me choices.
Had the parts installed - they worked as promised.
more emails from tuner, did everything go well? now to me - this is someone who cares....

I had more questions regarding performance - emails answered timely each and every time.

By this time I feel I have a relationship with this person and his organization. This is person whom I trust. This trust was earned by this tuner over a number of purchases over a period of time.
I was treated superbly whether it was a small purchase or a large purchase. Read on.

I made a small purchase from a second tuner- promised delivery - never happened - took weeks to get a very small and inexpensive item. That "tuner" will not get any of my business - they failed the first modest test.Do I need to advise my fellow viper owners who this is - nope, that has been done by plenty of others already.

[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gavin,
I don't believe any of us care who the second tuner is that didn't perform. However you would be helping us all by
telling us who the tuner was that performed in such an exemplary
manner.

 

[Gavin]

Earnie J requested I post who the Tuner was that has delivered the service outlined in my previous post. No Problem.
Sean Roe - Roe Racing.

My last purchase was his complete brake kit including 14" rotors.
I'm very pleased with the brakes, on track performance has been outstanding - in particular I like the pedal feel - I can really get on them very hard and know when I'm getting close to lockup. with the stock system lockup came with very little warning.
No fade, although I'm only on the track thirty minutes at a time.
Street performance - excellent. got a lot of squealing pad noise until the pads were properly seated - no noise now.

I believe the key to his system is the new master cylinder Sean uses. Pedal travel is minimal and as I said, and will keep on saying, pedal feel is great.(to me, pedal feel translates into, control)
Gavin

 

[Marc Lublin]

Gerald,
While I believe Vipers are special cars, they are not as different as you might think. Yes, the parts usually are not available on every corner shop, but they are available. Valve manufacturers, cam manufacturers and a host of others stock parts for these cars. It is just a motor not unlike many others. When I modified my 94 & my 2000 Rt's I ordered the parts and had them within 3 weeks, which was enough time for my head shop to finish their work on my heads and intake. I realize I don't have other cars to contend with at the same time. Understand though that I do not hold the weight of one of these big time tuners, which I'm sure could get the parts even quicker. If you are talking straight mods on the motors, there is no reason a tuner can't stick to the time frame. If you are talking about fabricating special stuff for Superchargers, Turbos and custom Nitrous kits, I could see a tuner running into snags and things taking a bit longer occasionally. Hopefully these good tuners out there have enough experience to give their customers a reasonable time frame for completion and stick close to it.

 

[pauls]

I guess I don't understand why a new viper owner sends a fresh car to a tuner before they master the stock potential? Myself included, most can't glean all that the factory has provided, let alone more power. I attend quite a few driving events, drag and road and see more of the "tuned" cars parked rather than competing. So what is the rationale of spending all this extra cash? To say I got one? Why not just buy the decal and keep the car at home and drive it?

 

[Gerald]

HEHE Paul,

I must respond..

"guess I don't understand why a new viper owner sends a fresh car to a tuner before they master the stock potential? "

Most ppl that do the above, it's usually their 2nd , 3rd, or 4th viper...

"Myself included, most can't glean all that the factory has provided, let alone more power"

Drive your car for a few weeks hard and you'll be totally use to your "stock" viper. Heck, my 98 STOCK GTS feels like a Lead Sled!

"Why not just buy the decal and keep the car at home and drive it?"

Are you kidding???? LOL..

 

[pauls]

"Drive your car for a few weeks hard and you'll be totally use to your "stock" viper. Heck, my 98 STOCK GTS feels like a Lead Sled!"

That's a pretty ambitious statement. If it's just more seat of the pants feel and keep it of the curbs, yeh you get used to it in a few weeks. But tenths off lap times and 60 ft at drags, no you don't master that in a few weeks.

 

[Marc Lublin]

Paul,
I have to respond as well. Most of us who own these cars are horsepower junkies, myself included. I do not race on a course nor have I been to the strip in years. There is no doubt that this car can probably do better around a course than I know what to do with. Yes, 1/4 performance is another learned thing which everyone need to learn to control. That being said, I don't know how anyone drives this car without modifying it! The Viper does handle the power well, which is one reason why people feel comfortable dumping more power into it. If it were a vintage Camaro that you put all those horses into and the car is all over the road I might agree with you a little, and even then, only a little. My 94 is probably putting out about 600 at the flywheel. When I brought my 2000 home, I still loved to drive it but where was the thrill of the 94? How could I drive around a car that felt slow compared to my old one. That's when I pulled the motor from the 2000 and did it up. That feeling when you drop the hammer can't be described. Since I do know my car pretty well, that felling of beating the 911 Turbo next to me easily, feels even better!