ZR-1 sales vs ACR/Viper

[RTTTTed]

Yes, much as I love Arctic Cat winter poster/ads and the similar style old Viper ads and commercials ... seems that Chrysler doesn't do them any longer. The OLD man with the totally hot Blonde bride provides a chuckle for many of my days. This is what belongs in our garages ...

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Arctic Cat has many posters that make smiles. The poster of a sledder all dressed in hos winter suit, wearinghis boots and helmet, covered in ice cubes laying in a Bathtub while the text reads - Waiting for Winter is good for a smile every time.

Chrysler doesn't do that anymore. Chrysler doesn't give away money to the car mags and most of the VCA members that have an opinion on this board figure that's why the vette always won all comparison tests while Viper was always the faster and better handling. Even "track comparison testing" had the Viper winning every speed competition and still lose to the vette's "adjustable suspension and TC" which are probably part of the reason the vette lost ALL comps in those tests.

It could be that Chrysler just got tired of winning everything while losing in the magazine articles so they completely ignore the magazines? A magazine asks for a test car and since they keep crashing so many Dodge now says "NO, you can't have one of our cars to wreck."

Since there's so much BS in Car Magazines (like when all the magazines said that the Nissan GTR was the fastest supercar made there was intelligent people (many on this board and vette guys) that can't be told that 480hp, skinny tires and a V6 is the world's fastest ... so we read these posts and NEVER buy any BS magazines because they are so full of BS. Too bad that there's no reality based Car Magazine because that would cause people to buy only it. The people that buy Car and Driver and all the other mags would switch to the real life magazine. But, right now we don't have any like that.

 

[RTTTTed]

Dodge now has the ACR-X. Probably any Car magazine can ask Dodge and get tons of info. Wonder how many will do a proper article on this car. Dodge is making history again! Is there a race corvette coming out of Bowling Green that will be able to compete with the ACR X?

Maybe C&D could pay Viper Magazine and copy their article? I mean unless they are a Car Magazine that actually wants to inform their readers that the fastest car is a Viper, again - and do their own research and question asking?

Ted

 

[terminator02]

At the end of the day I don't care about it that much. The 96-02 GTS cars are my favorite of all time. I would rather have my current 2000 "boring red" GTS ACR than a ZR1. Call me crazy. I just like the look and feel of my car. I don't like vettes but completely understand why many more people do. Most people that see my car think its amazing but would rather have a vette or even a "new camaro." This is a car for the discriminating gentleman. Kinda like that line in Gone in 60 Seconds when Nicholas Cage is being sold a Ferrari and he says that he saw two of them across the street at star bucks. He describes his unique vehicle choice and he is no longer a "self-indulgent wiener" rather a "connoisseur."

 

[lh4x4]

I have a Viper and three Corvette coupes. I wanted a Z06 but decided on the Viper convertible as it had more performance than the Z06.

I would love to have a ACR 1:22 any day before the ZR1. I have the resources to get one but my discussions with my wife have been less than successful. I can get her to look at the ZR1 more favorably because it is easier for her to enter. We both have more difficulty getting into the Viper. I'm 69 and 6'2" @ 230 lbs. I look at it as a labor of love and she thinks it is a chore and does not like to exit the car if anyone is looking.

I'm going to give it a couple more months. The window is closing for buying a new ACR. I will hate to miss it. A few dealers are discounting the ZR1 as there are a number of 09's on the lots and quite a few 10's.

I seek permission from my wife first because we have been a successful team for over 44 years so far. She enjoys the rides through the country that we use the cars for.

 

[1BADGTS]

I have a Viper and three Corvette coupes. I wanted a Z06 but decided on the Viper convertible as it had more performance than the Z06.

I would love to have a ACR 1:22 any day before the ZR1. I have the resources to get one but my discussions with my wife have been less than successful. I can get her to look at the ZR1 more favorably because it is easier for her to enter. We both have more difficulty getting into the Viper. I'm 69 and 6'2" @ 230 lbs. I look at it as a labor of love and she thinks it is a chore and does not like to exit the car if anyone is looking.

I'm going to give it a couple more months. The window is closing for buying a new ACR. I will hate to miss it. A few dealers are discounting the ZR1 as there are a number of 09's on the lots and quite a few 10's.

I seek permission from my wife first because we have been a successful team for over 44 years so far. She enjoys the rides through the country that we use the cars for.

Exactly i have gone thru the same thing NUMERIOUS TIMES over the years as its much easyier to sell a women on the Vette (not as hot,easier to get in and out of and rides much better )than the Viper and the above really does have an effect on the choice a couple makes in spending large dollars on these cars.

 

[bushido]

At the end of the day I don't care about it that much. The 96-02 GTS cars are my favorite of all time. I would rather have my current 2000 "boring red" GTS ACR than a ZR1. Call me crazy. I just like the look and feel of my car.

No, your not crazy at all. I know exactly how you feel..

 

[RTTTTed]

I have a Viper and three Corvette coupes. I wanted a Z06 but decided on the Viper convertible as it had more performance than the Z06.

I would love to have a ACR 1:22 any day before the ZR1. I have the resources to get one but my discussions with my wife have been less than successful. I can get her to look at the ZR1 more favorably because it is easier for her to enter. We both have more difficulty getting into the Viper. I'm 69 and 6'2" @ 230 lbs. I look at it as a labor of love and she thinks it is a chore and does not like to exit the car if anyone is looking.

I'm going to give it a couple more months. The window is closing for buying a new ACR. I will hate to miss it. A few dealers are discounting the ZR1 as there are a number of 09's on the lots and quite a few 10's.

I seek permission from my wife first because we have been a successful team for over 44 years so far. She enjoys the rides through the country that we use the cars for.

You could explain to your wife that the ACR is like an expensive designer gown and how it will make her even MORE beautiful. Good luck to you sir.

Ted

 

[RTTTTed]

No, your not crazy at all. I know exactly how you feel..

That goes triple for me! Several VCA members have told me that my GTS is their all time favorite. That includes some at VOI X.

Ted

 

[WILDASP]

Look at it this way: GM built the ZR-1 as a street/road cruiser and part-time drag car. Dodge built the ACR as a street legal road course track car. Now, ask yourself how many weekend warrior track rats there actually are. There aren't that many, even among the Viper Nation, or even among the Lotus or Porsche crowd. There are, however, quite a few drag racers, from the occasional to the *********. There's your answer, right there.

I would be willing to bet, that among both Vettes and Vipers, there are at least ten times as many cars that see at least some time on a drag strip, as there are that ever see the surface of a road course, or even an autocross circuit. That's partly a function of more drag racing venues available in more places, and partly a function of the fact that it's arguably easier to learn to run respectable (not great, but respectable) times on a drag strip, than to learn to do the same on a road course. All of that means there's a bigger market for a drag car that virtually anyone can also drive comfortably on the street, than there is for a purpose-built track car that is considerably less tolerant of a ham-****** driver; this is especially true in today's economy. If you really want to compare apples to apples, the better question would be how many 911 GT-3 RS models ( a focused track car like the ACR) Porsche is selling these days.

All that said, we need to remember that the ACR, just like the original Gen II version, was never intended to be a street sports car with mass appeal; it was and is (like its AC Shelby Cobra ancestor), a take-no-prisoners, street legal track weapon that demands an accomplished driver to get the best from it, and capable of annihilating anything short of a full-blown race car on a road course. It ain't cute, it ain't cheap, it ain't plush, it ain't for everybody, and kudos to Dodge for having the guts to build it! It will be a legend, long after the last ZR-1 is gathering dust in a barn somewhere! So, unless you bought it just for show, stop whining about trade-in values, take it to the track, where it belongs, and enjoy it for what it is.

 

[RTTTTed]

You have some good points, but the reason I'd prefer drag racing is because although I've drag raced (street and strip) all my life, I've never had an accident. Although my Viper goes 10.5@139mph on PS1s, it's way too fast for drag racing (max allowed is 11.5 without a roll bar) and my car would be 9s with DRs (sitting in the garage).

The road course is great, but if you screw up there are trees and cement walls to crash into. That means that I can't drive on the edge because the expense of fixing a bent Viper is huge. RR is definitely the biggest rush though.

I did buy my Viper after a modified ZR1 vette beat my 500hp Stealth. Although my 440 Duster (750hp) is as fast as my Viper in a drag race, the Viper outperforms nearly every other car on the planet and that's helpful on highway 20. This narrow mountain highway is nicknamed "Highway of Death" because of all the accidents along it's length. I've crashed 3 Deer and a Moose in pickups and SUVs. There are at least 3 newer vettes in Williams Lake area, but I have the only Viper in the West Chilcotin.

Although I like that GM "stepped up" and built the sc'd vette, I still favor the fastest road car the ACR.

Ted

 

[GBS]

It could be that a lot of people don't feel that great about Chrysler in general lately.

 

[1BADGTS]

Look at it this way: GM built the ZR-1 as a street/road cruiser and part-time drag car. Dodge built the ACR as a street legal road course track car. Now, ask yourself how many weekend warrior track rats there actually are. There aren't that many, even among the Viper Nation, or even among the Lotus or Porsche crowd. There are, however, quite a few drag racers, from the occasional to the *********. There's your answer, right there.

I would be willing to bet, that among both Vettes and Vipers, there are at least ten times as many cars that see at least some time on a drag strip, as there are that ever see the surface of a road course, or even an autocross circuit. That's partly a function of more drag racing venues available in more places, and partly a function of the fact that it's arguably easier to learn to run respectable (not great, but respectable) times on a drag strip, than to learn to do the same on a road course. All of that means there's a bigger market for a drag car that virtually anyone can also drive comfortably on the street, than there is for a purpose-built track car that is considerably less tolerant of a ham-****** driver; this is especially true in today's economy. If you really want to compare apples to apples, the better question would be how many 911 GT-3 RS models ( a focused track car like the ACR) Porsche is selling these days.

All that said, we need to remember that the ACR, just like the original Gen II version, was never intended to be a street sports car with mass appeal; it was and is (like its AC Shelby Cobra ancestor), a take-no-prisoners, street legal track weapon that demands an accomplished driver to get the best from it, and capable of annihilating anything short of a full-blown race car on a road course. It ain't cute, it ain't cheap, it ain't plush, it ain't for everybody, and kudos to Dodge for having the guts to build it! It will be a legend, long after the last ZR-1 is gathering dust in a barn somewhere! So, unless you bought it just for show, stop whining about trade-in values, take it to the track, where it belongs, and enjoy it for what it is.

Very true as VERY VERY FEW (i think its less than 2%)of the people will ever take any of these cars out on a roadcourse (its dangerous and totally destroys the car )Far more will drag race them .From a sales perspective a cars ability to run the quarter mile and stop (0-100-0)along with its features ,amenitys ,comfort, ride ect is FAR more important in the overall sceme of things than its track perf ON A ROADCOURSE

 

[Nine Ball]

I don't believe anyone buys a ZR1 because of the dragstrip. They buy it because of the same reason they bought any other top-level Corvette; to have the best Corvette available. Not everyone cares about other brands or how they compare, some people are just brand (blind) loyal. We even have those here in Dodge world. So, when your favorite brand releases the top-dog car, and you can afford it, you buy it. I know dozens (hundreds?) of guys that sold their nearly new C6 base Corvettes when the Z06 came out in 2006. Was it because their 400 hp, 1-yr old Corvette wasn't good enough? Nope, it is because they wanted the top of the line car.

I see the ACR as a track car that is street legal. I kinda chuckle when guys buy them but never even take them on a track. Those ACR owners are missing out on the experience intended for the cars. Someone buying the ACR for its purpose is not going to be interested in the ZR1 for its own purpose. They have two different goals in mind. ZR1 is a fast daily-driver with creature comforts and electronic gizmos, ACR is a killer track car.

 

[Ray W]

Some of my opinions are:

1. ZR1 has not been available as long as the ACR.
2. Not everyone likes the over the top racer look of the ACR added to the image the Viper already has.
3. GM may be perceived as a more stable company.
4. Everyone also waiting to buy the last year Viper made.

Personally I don't think the new ZR1 is selling that well either. The old C-5 ZR1 brings more money today than the GEN 1 of the same year. The Viper is the stepchild of the motoring press and is treated accordingly.

 

[1BADGTS]

What iam saying is the average buyer in this pricerange would MUCH rather have a car that is great 0-100-0 AND has all the toys ,amenitys ride ,comfort ect over one that is the king of ALL racetracks has a poor quality interior rides rough ,is hot and has no electronic gizmos ect.

 

[WILDASP]

Very true as VERY VERY FEW (i think its less than 2%)of the people will ever take any of these cars out on a roadcourse (its dangerous and totally destroys the car )Far more will drag race them .From a sales perspective a cars ability to run the quarter mile and stop (0-100-0)along with its features ,amenitys ,comfort, ride ect is FAR more important in the overall sceme of things than its track perf ON A ROADCOURSE

With all due respect, I think you and Ted (and a lot of other people) overestimate the danger of tracking for fun (as opposed to actual racing) on a road course. Most of us drive there at 70-90% of the car's capability (depending on our own skill and experience level), and take care in spots where we don't have a lot of run-off room. Sure, we spin, but actual crashes are fairly rare; hence the idea of a car one can legally drive to and from track sessions. There is also no way any of us can safely (and legally) enjoy the full performance ANY of these cars provide (whether it's a Vette, a Viper, or any other 400+ hp sports car), on public roads, and with all due respect to the skill and enthusiasm of you dedicated drag racers, the thrill of a straight line run does not compare with the thrill of accelerating hard down a straight, braking hard while executing a perfect heel-and-toe downshift, and hitting a perfect line through a corner at speed, even well within the envelope. The Viper (especially the ACR!) is made for this, and those who have not tried it really should give it a go (with proper instruction, of course). If you don't want the risk of hitting anything more than a few cones, try autocross; you may be surprised at how fun and challenging it is! For what it's worth, I feel far safer on a track, than at legal speeds on public roads.

 

[1BADGTS]

With all due respect, I think you and Ted (and a lot of other people) overestimate the danger of tracking for fun (as opposed to actual racing) on a road course. Most of us drive there at 70-90% of the car's capability (depending on our own skill and experience level), and take care in spots where we don't have a lot of run-off room. Sure, we spin, but actual crashes are fairly rare; hence the idea of a car one can legally drive to and from track sessions. There is also no way any of us can safely (and legally) enjoy the full performance ANY of these cars provide (whether it's a Vette, a Viper, or any other 400+ hp sports car), on public roads, and with all due respect to the skill and enthusiasm of you dedicated drag racers, the thrill of a straight line run does not compare with the thrill of accelerating hard down a straight, braking hard while executing a perfect heel-and-toe downshift, and hitting a perfect line through a corner at speed, even well within the envelope. The Viper (especially the ACR!) is made for this, and those who have not tried it really should give it a go (with proper instruction, of course). If you don't want the risk of hitting anything more than a few cones, try autocross; you may be surprised at how fun and challenging it is! For what it's worth, I feel far safer on a track, than at legal speeds on public roads.

Iam sorry my comments were in reference to statistical data in regards to a sales perspective as to what the average buyer is looking for ,in all likeleness willing to do with the car ect..All in all its very very tough to convince the average consumer of a car in the 6 figure range to take the car on a road course because of the element of fear for themselves and the car.

 

[RTTTTed]

With all due respect, I think you and Ted (and a lot of other people) overestimate the danger of tracking for fun (as opposed to actual racing) on a road course. Most of us drive there at 70-90% of the car's capability (depending on our own skill and experience level), and take care in spots where we don't have a lot of run-off room. Sure, we spin, but actual crashes are fairly rare; hence the idea of a car one can legally drive to and from track sessions. There is also no way any of us can safely (and legally) enjoy the full performance ANY of these cars provide (whether it's a Vette, a Viper, or any other 400+ hp sports car), on public roads, and with all due respect to the skill and enthusiasm of you dedicated drag racers, the thrill of a straight line run does not compare with the thrill of accelerating hard down a straight, braking hard while executing a perfect heel-and-toe downshift, and hitting a perfect line through a corner at speed, even well within the envelope. The Viper (especially the ACR!) is made for this, and those who have not tried it really should give it a go (with proper instruction, of course). If you don't want the risk of hitting anything more than a few cones, try autocross; you may be surprised at how fun and challenging it is! For what it's worth, I feel far safer on a track, than at legal speeds on public roads.

I agree with you. That's what I was saying. Although in the US you can buy Road Course Insurance (saves tens of thousands if you make a mistake) here in BC we have Gov. Insurance and there is no insurance option I am aware of.

I did watch a Mazda spin out and bend his front end, leaving his bumper there when he restarted and drove away. My GTS costs $30,000 for a hood/fender and $6,000 for a bumper cover because it's not a Mazda. The Mazda also straightened his inner front fender with a sledge hammer.

Ted

 

[1BADGTS]

Ps iagree it is fun but iam much too ANAL with my Vipers case in point one year during a mag test a E-Town one of the pros took me with him in my GTS around the road course(i made him pull the car after one lap ) there were pepples being sandblasted ALL over the car by the car in front of us . After a few laps the car would have needed tires an brakes not to mention accidents do happen all the time (when VCA NJ goes to Pocono every year theres an incident )thanks but no thanks.

 

[FrankBarba]

I spoke to my wife about a new Viper also. She stated that i don't need another Viper. We spoke about it for maybe 3 days. I kept showing her the pictures of the Laguna, Voodo, numerous ACR's @ Zero Financing & the ACRX. Every picture that i emailed to her or printed, it came back to me in my email or the picture was placed on my desk. I'm a firm believer that if you dream it & you put it in front of you it will happen (my referdrigerator if full of Dreams). In the end, i ordered one anyway.

 

[dans69ss]

Exactly too many on this forum forget the fact thats it is a business totally dependent upon SELLING CARS.The Vette appeals to a MUCH BROADER customer base than the Viper. People would rather buy a car thats more comfortable ect to drive and give up some road coarse perf.

Listen to this man. He's got a brain. Viper over the Vette for me though.

 

[TrackAire]

Good on you FrankBarba...congrats on your choice and new arrival.

Other than Vette owners and Vette enthusiasts buying the ZR1, from what I've seen the next largest group of ZR1 buyers are Viper owners. That would be for guys that already own a high performance car with similar performance levels.

I don't think you'll see many Ferrari lovers jumping on the ZR1 bandwagon. But I do see guys that own a Viper and Ford GT buy the ZR1. Maybe it has to do with American muscle, maybe it's just having the most powerful model from each USA manufacturer. Who really knows, but the fact is guys (and gals) like to have collections.

No matter what your favorite car is, popping open the garage door and having an ACR, ZR1 and Ford GT lined up would be an assume sight.

Cheers,
George

 

[bushido]

Listen to this man. He's got a brain. Viper over the Vette for me though.

^Chicken brain^

 

[Ray W]

Frank, easier to get forgiven than get permission. Mine doesn't know about the Raptor I ordered last week.

 

[RTTTTed]

Good thing this is a Vper forum, I can say that the ACRX wasn't built for mass appeal, it was built to kick every other car's asp and spank the ZR1, again but harder.

Vettes are built for mass appeal and I bleieve that the ZR1s lose money. Too bad they weren't built to be the fastest road car at Nuremburg Ring ... OH! that's right, they were built to beat the Nissan GTR and did that. They were advertised as the world's fastest road car after spanking the GTR. Then a couple engineers took their product and spanked the million dollar GM Racing and Development Team's effort by much more than the ZR1's margin over the GTR.

So even though the ACR reigns supreme in it's class the ACR X is out.

Masses won't buy the Viper, it's too fast.

Ted

 

[Paul Hawker]

Think Corvette Z-R1 depreciates faster than Vipers. When it first came out it sold for well over sticker. Now it is sticker or below.

No matter. The Viper experience is far superior to the Vett for Car Guys. Much rather hang with the ViperNation than the Plastic Fantastic group.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Listen to this man. He's got a brain. Viper over the Vette for me though.

Exactly, and why is that? Because of the Viper's no frills attitude. Yes, 1Bad is correct, it is a business. Duh. And the Viper is capitalizing on a market that had been neglected for two decades. The fact is there isn't room for a Dodge Corvette only Chevy, so Dodge built a Viper instead.

 

[1BADGTS]

Today i was speaking with a few friends in the mag business and they had some great insight on this topic.The Viper sold well years ago for a few reasons aggressive styling (toned down after first two Gens ),performance(nothing remotely near it ) and MAINLY Price (i paid approx 55k for my new 94 and 60 k for my new Gts in 96 ).The problem TODAY is once a buyer gets above 70 K sticker its an entirely different ballgame .That buyer wants it ALL including first class interior ,full gizmos ,amenitys ,decent ride ect ct The above to take precedent over all out track perf .Cars like the ZR-1 ,GTSR,M-5,MB-SL-63 ect ect did not exist years ago .In regards to the Gen 5 they felt that a reduction in sticker to the 70ish range(if DODGE is planning to out fit the car the way they did the Gen 4 ) would do wonders for the cars success.

 

[MichaelThurston]

Are There Too Many Kinds Of Corvettes, Or Not Quite Enough? - qotd - Jalopnik

I was thinking of getting a corvette. Rented one and was extremely disappointed with the quality. I didn't think cars were built that crappy anymore. Only 20k miles on it. On the brake issue I do not know if I can complain as I have had the same experience in a 97 gts. I was able to pump them and avoid the wall though.