If you were Cerebus, what would you do with the Viper?

dun4791 said:

I think all cars must have some sort of traction control by 2011 model year, per federal law.

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I heard 2012. But I don't think it is law yet. I think Congress still had to pass it.

Chuck, how do you figure that the current Viper is watered down? The problem is that Chrysler let their Viper founder, Bob Lutz, go to Chevrolet, who then promised revenge. The Z06 is his revenge and if it had arrived in the late 90's, it would have kicked GTS ass, all the same. I don't know if the current engineers and executives are as commited to being #1 as those who developed the GTS but I would not call the SRT "watered down", especially at 600hp. It's just that Chevy has finally decided to compete with it, thanks to Bob Lutz.

Danish invented what they should do and it's called LEGO. They have building blocks together (presumably great engine, tranny, clutch, brakes etc.) and they could utilize them in number of different ways. They should definitely make a facelift (5 years is a universe in sports cars segment and it's so easy to make a plastic mold) - think of Lambo Reventon kind of world. More mean and outrageous styling then anything else.

They should also make a midengine car utilizing the building blocks they already have. Shouldn't be too difficult to make a frame if kitcar vendors can do it (factoryfive, Ultima and apparently Jon Hennessey Posts tagged Hennessey Supercar at Autoblog

Alexarz said:

Chuck, how do you figure that the current Viper is watered down?

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Not watered down in performance. Not at all. Big thumbs to Dodge for that.

Watered down as in the dreaded "daily driver" direction it is slowly moving towards. Tire pressure sensors, electric pedal adjustments, ABS, cup holder, smoother, quieter, easier, etc. The Viper is still the greatest car built but it will/has been difficult keeping it pure and it is a battle I fear the purists will eventually lose. And when that happens management will wonder why sales have decreased when they think they are giving the public what the public thinks they want.

I think the pedal adjusters are more of a race car type of thing but what the hell do I know? I have a GTS and an SRT and if anything, the GTS is quieter. Both are stock. Is there a cup holder in the SRT? Not that I know of. If they went to power seats and cruise control, I would be concerned. So far, we are safe.

Chuck 98 RT/10 said:

The Viper began its life purely on an emotional decision. It is the business decisions that are watering it down which interestingly coincide with latest lackluster sales and image.

My preference now would be to lose weight and change the current priorites direction back towards tracking rather than adding features that amount to turning the Viper into Covette's cousin.

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Amen to that. But what do we know? We're Neanderthals.

Short, sweet, and concise, Patentlaw has it down to the pure science it is!!

We have seen the Viper pop up in a few ads of late, and the impact couldn't have been missed by Corporate at the Belle Isle Grand Prix Automobile Corral. You could wander over there anytime, and though we were the farthest away, there were always more spectators checking out the Vipers than the Porsches, Audis, Ferraris, or even the event marque car, the Corvette.

Re: If you were Cerberus, what would you do with the Viper?

Alexarz said:

I don't know if the current engineers and executives are as commited to being #1 as those who developed the GTS...

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Well, I will start with this and then throw in my own usual 10 cents (yep, it's gonna be a long read - I'm never as concise as Patentlaw).

First off, having spoken with some of the top SRT engineers directly this past week I can assure you that there is no team in the automotive industry that has more passion and commitment to performance than these guys. Not one. Again, let me emphasize the word "passion" as it is a key theme for not only the Viper, but one necessary to bring Chrysler to where it needs to be - at least in the short term. I can also tell you the folks in marketing, especially the lead Viper guy, "get it" and want to make sure the Viper stays on top. Now feel free to question the commitment of the guys (and gals) in accounting, but make sure you leave just about everybody on the SRT team out of that conversation - they are passionate about this car.

Now, what about Cerberus? It's obvious it isn't going to be easy. Let's start with the fact that the Viper is profitable on a per-car basis - and not just a few pennies. So if you have a profitable car that isn't drawing on extensive resources you put it on the back burner for now. I'll get to that back burner in a minute, but since you asked what I would do if I was Cerberus, here it is:

1. Evaluate sales trends on all models and cut those that have seen a downturn with no real hope of reversing it. Especially if they draw irretrievable resources that could be used elsewhere (money, parts, etc.) They just did that with four models this past week. Good for them.
2. Eliminate redundant models or make them less alike. The various press earlier mentioned that the Aspen could be cut as it was essentially a rebadged Durango with a different front end. Apparently it fell on the "keep it" side of the fence. Chrysler products are virtual clones of the Dodge products (or vice versa). Similar designs, similar features, and similar price points. Choosing between the top-of-the-line 300C SRT8 and Charger SRT8 comes down to exterior looks and maybe the interior to a lesser degree. Instead make them more noticeably different: Ford vs. Lincoln, Acura vs. Honda, Lexus vs. Toyota, Chevy vs. Cadillac, etc. Chrysler needs to become a true luxury brand while Dodge stays with "meat and potatoes". Right now they are Pontiac & Chevy - two historic names with no real differences in identity - not counting that "Corvette" thing of course.
3. Create a "generic" model that will appeal to the masses. Chrysler and Dodge have both taken pride in taking the path less traveled. Cutting-edge styling - "Dodge Different". And I say they should continue down that path for most of their "niche" models such as sports cars, muscle cars, etc. But the simple fact is that Toyota, Honda, and Ford all sell millions of examples of pretty bland styling. Even Chrysler's main claim to financial fame over the past decade has been a pretty darn boring vehicle: The minivan. More on this below - it became a pretty long paragraph.
4. Don't ruin or kill a GREAT thing only to revive it in hindsight: The Viper. Acura is rumored to be bringing back the NSX, Toyota the Supra, Nissan the GT-R, Ford did the GT, and the Corvette isn't going anywhere. The simple fact is that the Viper is already one of the most legendary vehicles in the automotive history. A century from now when our great grandchildren are in water-powered hovercraft, the transportation history books will devote a chapter to the Viper - not a footnote as so many others will likely inspire. The Viper has continued to garner magazine cover after magazine cover like no other car in recent memory. And with more to come. What I would do if I were Cerberus is take advantage of it: Get the Viper out there for more press events, get it back into racing in Le Mans and other events where it shined. I know the Viper can dominate with just a little manufacturer support. I mean really, if these wimps from the press can run circles around everybody else with the 2008 Viper think of what it could do in more capable hands. Rather than another run-on paragraph (can't separate them in numbered fields), read on:

For those of you that have had the opportunity to visit Chrysler's headquarters in Auburn Hills, as you walk down the hallways of glass-walled offices and cubes look closely: You will see more Vipers represented than ANY other Chrysler model, many of which are from the glory days of Le Mans. Sure, there might be a few NASCAR pictures or toys - a program in which Dodge dumps hundreds of millions - but the VIPER is what inspires these people. Heck, visit any Dodge dealer (or even Chrysler for that matter) and walk past the sales offices/cubes. Look in the waiting room for Service. What do you see? Viper, Viper, and more Viper. The simple fact is that the Viper inspires a more passionate response than ANY other single model out there. Sure, there are folks that dream of Ferrari, aspire to a Corvette, or settle for a Camry. But the Viper ignites a passion seldom seen anywhere else. You need only look at the ownership group to see that. In a recent poll we asked everybody (and not just Viper owners) if the Viper was important to the image of Chrysler/Dodge/SRT. The response was virtually unanimous: 98.45% said that the Viper is critical to the company image.

Let's face it, the biggest selling automotive designs are the least inspiring. Cars that make you say, "yeah, it's okay." They certainly don't ignite a passion nor do they create a massive fan base. Like 90% of the world's population they are simply content to do their job well, day in and day out with little fanfare. When you talk about most people in general you describe them as "nice" and don't really feel passionately about them either way. Cars are the same way and there aren't a lot of them out there that can polarize the public - the "love it" or "hate it" response.

But it seems that Chrysler/Dodge, which are largely different by design, inspire those kinds of responses. As a result they have no Taurus, no Civic/Accord, and no Camry. The 300 has done well, but largely because there were more in the "love it" group than the "hate it" group. And thankfully the automotive press fell in the first one. The simple fact is that Cerberus needs to come up with mildly-inspiring, middle-of-the-road car for the masses. A lower priced, more "stripped down" version for Dodge and a more upscale version for Chrysler. Get rid of those styling cues that polarize the public such as the lines on the Chrysler hoods. Save the in-your-face Dodge crosshair grills for your more radical models. You don't identify any Hondas, Toyotas, or Fords by their grills - so why tie yourself to only one version of such an important part of the design? Focus on that as your first priority: To create a car using the same formula that made the minivan a home run.

And the Viper? It is an icon, a legend - a true automotive superstar. Nike spends billions on celebrities to sell tennis shoes. The same holds true for major banks, beverage companies, clothing, cosmetics, and even cars: Remember when Chrysler signed Celine Dion for $14 million as a celebrity endorsement? The result was that it sold a LOT of records for Celine, but not too many cars for Chrysler (Chrysler's ad agency, BBDO, advised against the use of Celine Dion's endorsement from the beginning.). Apple doesn't need celebrities because it already has the latest one: The iPhone. And while the percentage of people that will actually own or buy one is small (most of us aren't on the AT&T network), Apple drives the sales of their other core products with the help of the iPhone publicity. Heck,it has been widely reported that a video game called "Halo 3" helped drive consumers to buy more Microsoft Xbox video systems which drove more people to buy Microsoft products in general: Last week they reported that their fiscal 1st quarter profit rose 23% and cited a video game as one of the driving forces behind it. Even companies with no "superstar" products spend millions to try and make them so: Look at the hundreds of millions GM has spent to put Cadillac into various racing series - mostly with four-door sedans that a statistically very small segment people are going to buy. And for a brand that has been devoted to the luxury car segment almost exclusively. At least the Corvette makes sense.

The bottom line is that the Viper is a "self made" superstar. A celebrity endorsement for the rest of the product line, but one that doesn't demand a bowl of green M&M's and 12 dozen roses before a commercial photo shoot. But to make use of a celebrity you need to get that celebrity out in the public eye. The automotive press knows that the Viper will sell more magazines when it appears on the cover so why doesn't Chrysler realize that it will sell more carswhen the Viper is more prominent in the public eye? Buick doesn't spend 40 million dollars on Tiger Woods to sell golf clubs, they spend it to sell cars. They will never make a penny from Tiger personally, but they know the "halo effect" he has on the brand. The Viper is profitable and makes money on its own. The fact that it also happens to be a bona fide celebrity by every single measure of the word is a bonus. If I were Cerberus, I would make sure that my in-house celebrity got as much exposure as humanly possible. And the very, very last thing I would do is kill the only celebrity the company has. Shooting Tiger Woods in public would decimate Buick sales. Killing the Viper would be just as baffling. I am confident that Cerberus is smart enough to recognize a celebrity in their midst and take advantage of it accordingly. I know I would if I were them.

Re: If you were Cerberus, what would you do with the Viper?

Y2K5SRT said:

Buick doesn't spend 40 million dollars on Tiger Woods to sell golf clubs, they spend it to sell cars. They will never make a penny from Tiger personally, but they know the "halo effect" he has on the brand.

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Not to get off topic here and your point is taken Chris, but GM signing Tiger Woods to 40 million to market Buick had to be almost as bad of decision as building the Aztek. I don't know of anybody jumping on the Tiger/Buick bandwagon and that includes seven people I work with all of whom bought new cars in the past year. None of them bought a Buick. Gawd, it's no wonder GM is having so many problems.

Now back to Viper.

Nice story Chris like you always have them .. but what about the post earlier in this thread with the Edmunds article?
(off topic, I sure hope my NY/CT Associate Membership comes through with the right people soon )

Alexarz said:

Excuse my ignorance but does Lemans have the same handicaps as SCCA racing does? If so, how can a Viper win with 300 extra pounds of weight added to it, while having the intake choked by 40%?

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I could be wrong but I think the Viper engine is too big for LeMans now. Maybe shrink it back to 8.0 and get the HP by other means.

InjectTheVenom said:

but what about the post earlier in this thread with the Edmunds article?
(off topic, I sure hope my NY/CT Associate Membership comes through with the right people soon )

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Actually, Edmunds is off base on a couple points. First and most importantly, the platform is NOT a money loser. Second, just because the plant itself has not been earmarked for the long term doesn't mean the Viper shares the same fate. Indeed, Chrysler's Arizona proving grounds will be closing permanently next month. The local Phoenix paper announced it in 2005 with this lead-in: "New homes will replace Dodge Vipers and PT Cruisers on a huge piece of land northwest of Phoenix, where automaker Chrysler has tested its vehicles since 1958." So what does that mean for Chrysler products? Nothing: Yesterday they held the ribbon cutting ceremony for the NEW Chrysler Arizona proving grounds in Yucca:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Chrysler Ribbon Cutting[/FONT]
YUCCA, AZ 11-01-07 - Chrysler LLC will celebrate the dedication of its new Chrysler Arizona Proving Ground in Yucca with a ribbon-cutting ceremony tomorrow at the facility. The Company will announce investment plans which was purchased earlier this month. The economy in the area is expected to get a robust boost thanks to the decision by Chrysler to buy the Proving Grounds from Ford.

Just because a company closes an older, outdated facility doesn't mean that the product can't be located elsewhere. It's like moving to a new house - that doesn't mean that you are dead, just that you relocated. Too many people seem to forget that and speculate that the possible demise of the facility equates to the demise of the vehicle produced there. Just like when they stopped making Corvettes 25 years ago after the St. Louis plant closed. No, wait - they STILL make Corvettes, just at a different plant. Interestingly enough, when I did a quick search to find out when they moved to Bowling Green I found this little tidbit in one of the more recent articles:

"The only factory in the world that builds the iconic sports car, General Motors' Bowling Green plant rolled out its first Corvette in Kentucky 25 years ago on June 1, 1981. Industry analysts say the plant remains a bright spot for General Motors Corp. at a time when sagging sales have led the automaker to eliminate 30,000 U.S. hourly jobs by 2008 as part of a massive restructuring plan. About 35,000 Corvettes are assembled at the plant each year -- a small fraction of the 9 million vehicles GM is expected to produce worldwide this year.

But the Corvette -- which sells for around $50,000 -- is not intended to make piles of money, but instead to create a brand identity and to lure customers into Chevy dealerships to buy other vehicles, said David Healy, an analyst with New York-based Burnham Securities Inc. "It's microscopic, but it does the job as a marketing tool for Chevy," Healy said. "Indirectly it makes money because it gives cachet to Chevy, which otherwise might suffer from lack of charisma."

And rumor has it that Conner Avenue has NO scheduled downtime for the remainder of the 2008 model year production. The same cannot be said for other plants. Indeed, Viper sales and production overall is as strong as it has ever been*. Some people seem to equate the overproduction from a couple years ago as a bad sign for the car. Don't read anything more into it than simple supply exceeding demand - Chrysler was doing that across virtually all model lines, not just the Viper.

The bottom line is that the Viper is very much alive and well. And as far as I am concerned, will be for the foreseeable future. What else could possibly give Dodge or Chrysler that "cachet" as the Vette does for Chevy? Oh, the Challenger is going to be one very hot ticket - but don't forget that the last one was only around for five years before it petered out (sales down 85% from the first year). That barely gave it enough time to become a star, much less the superstar the Viper has clearly become.




* Viper sales by model year show the current Viper to be selling the same or even more than previous years:

1992 - 285
1993 - 1043
1994 - 3083
1995 - 1577
1996 - 1887
1997 - 1788
1998 - 1216
1999 - 1463
2000 - 2007
2001 - 1978
2002 - 1622
2003 - 1875
2004 - 2433
2005 - 2003
2006 - 1869
2007 - N/A
2008 - ????


PS. I like your new title!

Warfang said:

I could be wrong but I think the Viper engine is too big for LeMans now. Maybe shrink it back to 8.0 and get the HP by other means.

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It might be better to hand over the right amount of cash to the ACO.

Forget about corvette and go after the mustang. 600 HP Hemi pony car, sell them faster than you can make them.

Another thought...

A big differentiator between most American cars and high-end imported cars is styling. With the exception of the Viper, and (arguably) the Corvette, it seems like American car styling is trendy, not classic.

A lot of people, like myself, tend to keep cars for a long time. When I buy a Jaguar, it has a classic styling that matures well, whereas I cannot think of a high-end American car (aside from the Viper) whose styling is still appealing 10 years on.

Americans are not inherently clueless when it comes to style, and amortizing the expense of styling over thousands or even millions of cars makes the cost differential between bland and excellent styling insignificant.

Jaguar showed the world - especially through their dark years for poor quality, that people will spend a lot of money to buy pretty cars.

Our Viper is a Gen III, and although people will argue whether the GTS is prettier or not, what is significant is that today, the GTS is STILL considered beautiful. Can you say that of any other Chrysler product of the same era?

If I were running Cerberus, my first investment would be in something stunning, like the Aston-Martin. Perhaps move ahead with some of the products that have been shown, admired, then canned. Firepower?

How about a world class styling team? Could they steal Ian Callum?

When I look at cars like the Chrysler 300, I like the styling - sorta. The problem is that I am not convinced it will still be attractive in a couple of years. Perhaps that's by design, intended to stimulate new sales, but unfortunately for lots of folks the new car we purchase will then be another brand whose styling has staying power.

Cerberus could continue the current Viper body style for a long time, it is a classic, in my opinion, unfortunately the same cannot be said of its other products.

Thanks for the insight Chris, all these cost cutting developments have me worried every now and then, especially since we (or just me by me onesies) don't really know yet what exactly Cerberus has in store for the Viper's future. Lots of people having the same worries me thinks.
And by golly I absolutely like my new title too

Mike Dolan has a good point but the most valuable muscle cars are Mopars and they still look awesome, today. Who doesn't like a '70 Hemi Cuda? Of course, that was a long time ago. Then again, what american car since the muscle car age, is still attractive looking? ZERO. Even the Buick Grand National looks boxy and dated. What Chrysler needs to do is build the Challenger, Viper and other such exciting cars. The Challenger is going to sell like mad. If only Plymouth were not defunct, the Cuda could make a comeback, also. Better yet, bring it back under the Chrysler brand. Also, bring back the Road Runner. Imagine Chrysler, headed by the Viper and flanked by the Challenger, Cuda and RoadRunner. Wow! Then, of course, sell the vans and develop some 45mpg hybrid economy car.

My guess is that Lutz, Shelby, and the rest of the historical fathers of the Viper in 1992 had no idea that the Viper would still be produced today. At the time, it was a last ditch effort to bring excitement to the hurting Chrysler brand. As the Viper developed into the GTS and won races in LeMans and other venues, it gave real credibility to the engineers at the Viper plant that spilled over to the rest of the lineup in the eyes of the general consumer. The Viper was inspirational in revamping the whole lineup.

Even those out to buy minivans like to see that Chrysler build quality is world class and when they see posters of Vipers winning races, that message is recieved.

If I were in charge of Cerberus, I would keep the Viper on track and return it to racing to renew it's credibility as a race car for the street which is the only advertizing real car nuts pay attention to. I would spend some big money on advertizing the return of American build quality as the Viper wins races and the Challenger returns to the street. I would also contunue the exciting commercials like for the Charger and new Avenger.

In summary, it is never enough to just build a quality car or SUV. You have to prove that it is the best at what it is designed for and then advertize it. If there is nothing good to advertize compared to the competition, then you need to return to the drawing board.

First of all, I would make sure that my flagship car, the Viper, was supported by each and every Dodge dealer, service wise. I have gone through 2 Vipers so far and it is a pain in the ass to get them serviced. Even the original selling dealer of my last Viper refused to change the oil because "that thing has an aluminum frame and I am not going to get caught bending it." Believe it or not. The dealer that would service it 50 miles away tried to charge me 8 hours labor to change the rear end fluid "since it has no drain plug and the whole rear end has to come out." I showed them how to pump it out in 15 minutes. And this was a Viper tech. Either they were stupid or thought I was stupid. I would also make sure that things like the crankshaft pully nut did not come loose, either by properly torqueing them at the factory and/or keying them. These cars cost big bucks and should be supported better by the dealer network.

Since the Viper has a reputation as a brutish kick-ass sports car, I think they need to make sure it lives up to that reputation in performance. The Viper has always been one of the most feared cars on the road and certainly one of the more exotic designs around. But in a day w/ 500 hp stock BMW's and Vettes, a stock Gen 1-Gen 3 Viper can be just an average sports car.

Why give up all the creature comforts if your sports car will get its ass kicked by lighter and faster Vettes, Nissan GT-r's, and Porsches? If Viper is to be the brutish ass-kicking pure sports car, then it's performance damn well better ante up and kick in. A $90,000 sports car w/out the latest technology and w/ middle of the pack performance does not make much sense and will not sell well. THAT IS WHY MOST OF US END UP MODDING THE SNOT OUT OF OUR CARS.

For Viper to remain viable, the current body design of the Gen 4 is killer and gets stares like nothing else...but INCREASE THE POWER TO MATCH THE CARS BRUTISH KICK-ASS IMAGE. The Viper should lose about 200 lbs if possible and get another 80-100 hp stock, right off the show room floor. No more middle of the pack bullsh*t. Bore and stroke the motor, put in a mean cam, better heads, lose the weight, hell, you could even have a sticker price of $99,000 for the car if need be. BUT MAKE THE PERFORMANCE MATCH THE IMAGE...A ********, KICK ASS NO HOLDS BARRED CAR packing nothing but attitude, power, and performance.

Then no one will give a sh*t about cupholders or cruise control.