AutoGuide on HP Situation Viper & Challenger Hellcat
- Thread starter Grisoman
- Start date
In 1989 I ran a Paxton on my stang, did a mass air conversion, no IC, etc., and ran 6lbs boost. Swapped 3.73s in and ran 12.93 @ 105 on the shake down day, from a car with a factor 225hp/300tq, so it was good for about 100hp. No issues at all. In 91 I did a Vortech at 8lbs, stock engine, same results but you could literally feel the heat soak an in a huge traffic jam (like stop &go for hours) it shut down on me and needed to cool, cooked the gas I believe. 95 I did a procharger with a big ass intercooler, went from 8 to 12lbs and it ran like factory.
The early days, were awesome, because we didn't have anything better & that's when going 12's on street tires would get everyone's attention. But when ICs came, it as a whole other ball game. Nowadays these setups are so trick, factory quality. Only trouble is, now 11s are "ok". haha.
The early days, were awesome, because we didn't have anything better & that's when going 12's on street tires would get everyone's attention. But when ICs came, it as a whole other ball game. Nowadays these setups are so trick, factory quality. Only trouble is, now 11s are "ok". haha.
rschiltz
Enthusiast
Yes, those were the good ole Muscle Mustang and Fast Ford days, where they were working on their Code Blue project car. If you had a car making over 400+ horsepower and running 12's you were pretty fast. The low 11's or super high 10's were the extreme cars.
Rick
In 92 i had the state of the art set up big dollar set up.Ill give you another senerio but will not mention the tuner .A buddy of mine bought a 98 GTS from a well known VIPER SUPERCHARGER GURU At the time my moddded GTS was being used as a test car for MCMULLEN ARGUS PUB (in part Muscle Mustang and Fast Ford Mag) My buddys GTS was SUPPOSIDLY BUILT TO RUN My tuner WARNED me not to let mag guys near this BUILT TO RUN CAR .I didnt pay attention as my buddy wanted a number The day of the test it was hot and the blower car lasted all of 4 runs before the catostrophic blower failure .You can not compare an aftermarket tuner sc car built on a limited budget with a factory SC car that carrys a warranty With a factory SC car (be it a FGT ,Cobra ,ZR-1 )one can hand the keys to a pro on a hot day to beat the hell out of the thing and it will not break thiis just can be said for a tuner car
LOL you turn the mag guys loose (in particular Evan )on a sc tuner ca (PAXTON-VORTECH ) and let him bump the thing off the rev limiter once its heatsoaked and might as well throw that motor out .
Dont know if you have ever heard of JDA Auto (Freehold NJ )as they do a ton of aftermarket on the FGT and Cobra .(Muscle Mustang always does features on them ).Unlike Dodge, Ford provides critical tuning info to the aftermarket (not to mention the fact that the cars are engineered from the factory to be supercharged )
Hey, I do. I met up with "nitrous" Pete Misinski a few times in NJ too, he tuned one of my cars, went to his house and he had an engine block on his dining room table, I was like hell yea. Good ole Dr Gene Deputy days, dayum I'm old.
I must be getting old; I remember when cars cutting 5 sec 0-60 times and 14 sec quarter mile passes were considered 'fast'...now family SUVs can approach or beat those figures...but it's fun to see things progressing as they have despite the EPA and government attempting to undo that fun by having us all drive hybrids.
I find it funny that SRT refuses to release any aftermarket parts for the new Viper or the info needed to unlock the PCM when Ford has a Whipple supercharger kit developed for the new 15" Mustang GT before they are even on dealers lots. If lawsuits or the EPA was really the hold up on the mods then how can Ford do it?
http://www.fordinside.com/2015-ford-mustang-gt-to-get-a-supercharger-package-from-ford-racing/
http://www.fordinside.com/2015-ford-mustang-gt-to-get-a-supercharger-package-from-ford-racing/
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Some people have hit it on the head with EPA crap. You can do it if you want to throw the money at it, but you have to recertify whenevery you make changes to stuff. Having gone through that where I work I've seen first hand just how big of a hassle that is. We spent the better part of 5 years trying to put a Ford V10 in the trucks we build and every frickin week there was some stupid EPA crap coming up. Everything from fuel lines, exhaust, computer issues, etc. After all was said and done we still had to pay the EPA yearly to keep the certification going, so we decided it just wasn't worth the effort and cost.
It's not really much different than Lambos and Ferraris and other exotics. No one seems to complain that they don't offer additional engine options, despite the fact that you're paying twice as much for a car with similar performance. If SRT expected to sell enough parts to pay for cost of certification it would probably make a difference, but when you make only a few thousand cars a year (if that), you'd have to sell two parts for every car you build to make it worth all the testing. How many thousands of Mustangs go out the door daily? Even if they only sold a kit for 10% of them you'd still sell more kits than they build Vipers in a year.
It's not really much different than Lambos and Ferraris and other exotics. No one seems to complain that they don't offer additional engine options, despite the fact that you're paying twice as much for a car with similar performance. If SRT expected to sell enough parts to pay for cost of certification it would probably make a difference, but when you make only a few thousand cars a year (if that), you'd have to sell two parts for every car you build to make it worth all the testing. How many thousands of Mustangs go out the door daily? Even if they only sold a kit for 10% of them you'd still sell more kits than they build Vipers in a year.
rschiltz
Enthusiast
That really reminds me of the old days hearing names like Nitrous Pete Minisky, Gene Deputy, Mike Murillo, and others.
Ford designeds their cars to be supercharged from the factory as thousands will be modded FULL FACTORY SUPPORT . The amount of people willing to mod a 100k plus Viper is few and far between .The motor was not designed from the factory to be supercharged inturn the last thing DODGE wants is some aftermarket tuner (DESIGNS A SYSTEM IN HIS GARAGE )playing with their air fuel ratios .The above is a disaster waiting to happen for SRT .Customers always FORGET about the mods and complain to whoever will listen that their 100k Viper just blew up and Dodge will not cover it .
Exactly of the approx 500 Gen 5 in the country how many people are going to risk devalueing them (losing the warranty )by modding them Over the past 20 years i have seen a ton of tuner cars test by the guys at MCMullen Argus When a NA factory car gets a forced induction system on it (aftermarket tuner )theres always some sort of issue
MY tuner makes one thats VERY COSTLY but works great A buddy of mine roadraces with it .Theres still some issues but its a ton safer than the water **** system as the as the inlet air temp is dramatically reduced.
Jimmy D (JDA )got some FAST FAST STUFF coming out of that shop .He will work on Ford only because thats what he knows Hes also extremely realistic about WHATS SAFE and FEASABLE to do for the engine application
ps LOL before you ask its 10k installed (with a modded hood )As i posted before as long as temps are monitered the car can be roadraced with it provided the engine is built for it . In 2 plus roadracing seasons he rebuilds the blower 2x per year.All in all (built motor ,Roe Intercooler ,maint Phil has over 50k in the set up .
This is not true. The Gen V motor was designed to take modest boost and same was stated in a public video by Dick Winkles.
The truth is that MOPAR and SRT do not have the budget to spend the dollars needed to develop an OEM supercharging kit for the car ( I would guess that it would be in the 50 million dollar range) and, thus far, the number of Gen V's purchased does not create a business model strong enough for an aftermarket company to spend the money to develop one even if the code was made available to them to do so.
With that said, I heard a fairly reliable rumor that a reputable after market manufacturere was in the early stages of developing a positive displacement kit for the Gen five in the 5 to 6 pounds of boost range with the key words being "early stages".
So if the Viper nation wants this application to ever come to the market, the best way to help it along is tio buy enough Gen Vs so that the business case to complete the project makes sense.
No company is going to do the R and D and put together a durable and reliable kit for a few people.
The truth is that MOPAR and SRT do not have the budget to spend the dollars needed to develop an OEM supercharging kit for the car ( I would guess that it would be in the 50 million dollar range) and, thus far, the number of Gen V's purchased does not create a business model strong enough for an aftermarket company to spend the money to develop one even if the code was made available to them to do so.
With that said, I heard a fairly reliable rumor that a reputable after market manufacturere was in the early stages of developing a positive displacement kit for the Gen five in the 5 to 6 pounds of boost range with the key words being "early stages".
So if the Viper nation wants this application to ever come to the market, the best way to help it along is tio buy enough Gen Vs so that the business case to complete the project makes sense.
No company is going to do the R and D and put together a durable and reliable kit for a few people.
Economic factors aside Bob you really need to speak with someone like test driver Evan Smith for SVT (FGT and Cobra )and a contributing editer for Mopar Perf illustrated because the last thing Dodge wants is an aftermarket tuner screwing around with a GEN5 with forced induction (Hence the difficulty in cracking the computer code ) When designing a motor its either engineered to take boost or not (.LOL what do you think Ford just slapped a blower on the Cobra ,put in a few upgraded parts and called it a day) Ford spent over a million dollars just alone on fuel management on the upcoming stag You constantly CONFUSE -EQUATE a bolt on aftermarket system with that of a factory effort As per Eric Hanover the parameters of ANY DODGE ENGINE are the ability to run at yellowline for 72 straight hours .Eric told me this in 2009 at Englishtown NJ during the press info of the Challanger )If you have ever seen a prototype tested theses not a single bolt on application out there that would last 15 minutes iwhen tested like a factory car that MUST carry a warrantyJust because the Gen 5 engine has upgraded parts does not in any way make it ENGINEERED to be a sc motor
You did not read my post carefully. I am not referring to a kit developed by an aftermarket "tuner". As stated above, I was referring to an aftermarket manufacturer.
I also respect, trust and believe Dick Winkles. Your questioning what he said in the video is totally inappropriate and peculiar behavior to say the least and I suggest that you post an apology.
A well engineered aftermarket appication developed by an experienced and reputable manufacturer can be very reliable. And there are hundreds running around with thousands of miles on them on many types of cars. As I said above, if enough Gen Vs are sold, continued development of the kit I heard about will likely go forward. If not, then it will be left to the "aftermarket tuners" to develop something which is an entirely different thing.
I also respect, trust and believe Dick Winkles. Your questioning what he said in the video is totally inappropriate and peculiar behavior to say the least and I suggest that you post an apology.
A well engineered aftermarket appication developed by an experienced and reputable manufacturer can be very reliable. And there are hundreds running around with thousands of miles on them on many types of cars. As I said above, if enough Gen Vs are sold, continued development of the kit I heard about will likely go forward. If not, then it will be left to the "aftermarket tuners" to develop something which is an entirely different thing.
Bob over the past 20 years i have had NUMERIOUS AFTERMARKET SUPERCHARGING KITS TESTED BY THE MAGS in Vipers The tests were conducted in the identical way a FACTORY CAR is tested none have lasted more than a few runs (Go back in the VCA and research Evan Smith tests Dan Blacks Supercharged GTS IN 1999 )Call the tuner that did your car and see if its ok if you give the thing to Evan to test as he tests a factory car in hot weather under the condition the RESULTS are published in the Mag .He will tell you Your stating a fact based on YOUR DEFINATION of driving a car hard .A professional that drives for Ford has a slightly different defination of driving a car hard Last year at Bradaton he ran -tested a Gen 3 with the Bolt on Paxton kit (installed for a customer by one of the largest Viper dealers in the US .)That test lasted 3 runs .At least the motor didnt go it was a head gasket
Testing a Gen II is a small sample. There are many on this Forum who have successfully run Paxtonized Gen IIIs for many years. For instance, the only time I ran my former car was on a 76 degree day with 65 percent humidity. I drove 105 miles to the track and with no cool down hot lapped it for six back to back runs. The car was fine.
It does not take your hero to blow an engine. Anyone can blow up any car if they abuse it enough whether it is OEM or not. It takes no special skill set to be an idiot. There are reliable kits that when properly installed and maintained are durable and do a great job. If someone is foolish enough to hot lap a car on a 100 degree day they deserve a mechanical failure.
One 1999 GTS driven by one person is too small a sample to be in any way meaningful and is being inappropriately used to trash all the manufacturers of supercharger kits
It does not take your hero to blow an engine. Anyone can blow up any car if they abuse it enough whether it is OEM or not. It takes no special skill set to be an idiot. There are reliable kits that when properly installed and maintained are durable and do a great job. If someone is foolish enough to hot lap a car on a 100 degree day they deserve a mechanical failure.
One 1999 GTS driven by one person is too small a sample to be in any way meaningful and is being inappropriately used to trash all the manufacturers of supercharger kits
BOB hello Evan is Fords DRAG RACING TEST DRIVER responsible for the NEW Cobra and in past years the Ford GT .He can take ANY FACTORY SUPERCHARGED CAR (ZR-1 FGT Mustang Cobra )and beat the heck out of it ALL DAY in 100 degree heat and it will not cause problems at all .You referred to one test are you kidding hes tested thousands of aftermarket tuner cars with blowers They are engineered on shoestring budgets in comparasion to a factory car inturn cant possibly provide the same reliability criteria. Bob guess why NONE OF THEM HAVE WARRANTYS S Bob instead of talking your in Florida inturn I will set up the test .Show up with your car at Bradaton and you will see EXACTLY what iam saying .I will make sure hes got a new Supercharged Cobra Mustang on hand to compare your car to run for run
PS BOB by your own admission you claim to drive your car hard inturn you will surely stand up for your conviction and have the car tested in the identical manner as a factory SC CAR Please priovide me with a list of specific dates your available to have your car tested .Inturn as i posted previously you MAY want to inform the tuner who built your motor of the impending doom i mean test ,to get his opinion .In the past 20 previous years of doing this i have yet to meet one tuner who will give the ok once they find out whos running the car and the criteria (comparasion to a factory sc car )thats its going to be tested against mag Not to mention the fact that the results could be published by a
Test cars involved Dodge Viper( complete with aftermarket Supercharging Kit. 2013 ) Ford Mustang Cobra (supercharged from the factory) .Test crtiteria- both cars will be run the same day in the identical manner (RUN FOR RUN ) in which professional test driver conducts factory prototype testing at Bradaton Raceway in Florida.Bob i took the liberity of spelling it all out on paper so nothing can be conviluted and or excuses of any type made There you have lets see IF you are will to back up what you say
1BADGTS is correct in what he's saying here as far as the reliability of an engine that was designed from the ground-up to have FI vs one that was simply built to be reliable NA (the gen 5 V10).
I cannot blame mopar for not releasing a S/C kit. Let's pretend that the kit yielded 100% reliability in the same testing extremes that the NA engine was subject to - even if that were possible, it would be a losing proposition from a business perspective. They would not be able to sell enough of them at a reasonable price to break even, let alone make a profit.
How many Gen 5s were actually sold to customers to date? Isn't it under 3,000 total? I'm talking about actual deliveries to buyers, not dealership inventory. Let's just say that it was 3,000 and that 10% of these buyers decide that 640 HP is "weak" and they need a blower. Ok, that's only 300 customers...so even if the kit retailed for $15,000 (a bit high for a blower kit), you're looking at $4.5M in sales on the optimistic side. Subtract material costs, R&D, certifications, testing, govt red tape, salaries/wages for employees, advertising and logistical expenses...so of that $4.5M in sales, the margins would likely be slim to none. If you were to sell the S/C kit at a more realistic price, say $7,500, then it would probably result in a net loss per unit sold.
I think there are going to be tuners who offer FI options for G5 Viper owners, as they do not need to meet the same standards as a large automaker does...but I feel like my Viper is very well balanced as is.
I cannot blame mopar for not releasing a S/C kit. Let's pretend that the kit yielded 100% reliability in the same testing extremes that the NA engine was subject to - even if that were possible, it would be a losing proposition from a business perspective. They would not be able to sell enough of them at a reasonable price to break even, let alone make a profit.
How many Gen 5s were actually sold to customers to date? Isn't it under 3,000 total? I'm talking about actual deliveries to buyers, not dealership inventory. Let's just say that it was 3,000 and that 10% of these buyers decide that 640 HP is "weak" and they need a blower. Ok, that's only 300 customers...so even if the kit retailed for $15,000 (a bit high for a blower kit), you're looking at $4.5M in sales on the optimistic side. Subtract material costs, R&D, certifications, testing, govt red tape, salaries/wages for employees, advertising and logistical expenses...so of that $4.5M in sales, the margins would likely be slim to none. If you were to sell the S/C kit at a more realistic price, say $7,500, then it would probably result in a net loss per unit sold.
I think there are going to be tuners who offer FI options for G5 Viper owners, as they do not need to meet the same standards as a large automaker does...but I feel like my Viper is very well balanced as is.
Ah, did you notice that I do not own that car any more? You are going off on your Evan obsession again. Something that many of us on this site have seen before and which we find a bit odd.
I also did not say I drove the car hard. I said that I drove it on one occasion at one private track event to see how a road course car, which it was, would behave at the drag strip.
You are completely missing the point. The point is that even though an aftermarket kit may not be tested as well as an OEM application, for most people's purposes, it is good enough as long as they properly maintain the car and respect the performance parameters of the kit as installed.
Some of the kit makers even offered and offer limited drivetrain warranties. For instance, Paxton did with respect to the Gen III kit.
Take care.
I also did not say I drove the car hard. I said that I drove it on one occasion at one private track event to see how a road course car, which it was, would behave at the drag strip.
You are completely missing the point. The point is that even though an aftermarket kit may not be tested as well as an OEM application, for most people's purposes, it is good enough as long as they properly maintain the car and respect the performance parameters of the kit as installed.
Some of the kit makers even offered and offer limited drivetrain warranties. For instance, Paxton did with respect to the Gen III kit.
Take care.
Only if the rest of you are fools who drive beyond the capability of the car. Someone like you who purports to know all about everything automotive has no excuse for blowing an engine in any context.
I would guess that there have been very few Paxtonized Gen III engines that have "blown up" since there are more than 150 of them out there and in my many years on this site I do not think I have read one story about it.
There are some serious drag racers on this site who race on every weekend or close to it weather permitting. Somewhere there would be videos, posts, something, if it was a frequent occurence. I am sure that it had to have happened. Just not frequently because a seasoned drag racer who knows his or her car also knows its limitations.
I would guess that there have been very few Paxtonized Gen III engines that have "blown up" since there are more than 150 of them out there and in my many years on this site I do not think I have read one story about it.
There are some serious drag racers on this site who race on every weekend or close to it weather permitting. Somewhere there would be videos, posts, something, if it was a frequent occurence. I am sure that it had to have happened. Just not frequently because a seasoned drag racer who knows his or her car also knows its limitations.
