06 s/c coupe vs modded z06

[myfirstviper]

well a few of you may remember from a while back me and my buddy are in a street race war. he has 06 z06 with the folling N/A Mods. cooks headers,custom cam, custom tuning. mcleod twin disc clutch, light fly wheel. stock run flats in front, perrelli 355-25-19 rear

he put down 550 rwhp on the dyno

my car . 06 srt c. dlm Stage 1 S/c. basically just the s/c on an other wise stock 06 coupe. running 6-7 lbs of boost.
my car dynoed at the same dyno at 620 rwhp but my s/c belt was slipping so i'm probably good for 30 more hp. so lets call it 650 rwhp. only other advantage i have are tires. 18 inch toyo ra1's all around.

now i raced my buddy many times when my car was stock. he already had the headers. he pulled me everytime. plus i had to feather the throttle,first and second. with the oem run craps

so now we square off. i figure i got almost 100 more hp. i sould be able to take him easy right? wrong

1st race. he dosnt get traction in first or second, so we decide to start the race rolling in second at about 60. I nail it, he nails it but he's fighting sum spinning. i hooked 100%. we go in to third and i'm just a half car infront. i have to shift in to 3rd before he does. i make a crucial mistake and dont take second all the way to redline which leaves me in third and just out of my power ban.

as i go into 3rd , he holds second to 7200rpm. and he hooks 3rd. at this point he sling shots past me by about 2 cars and all i can do is be deafened by his overpowering exhuast.(sounds like an f1 car at wot) i know i cant catch him as he is pulling strong so i shut it down at the end of 3rd.

ok, now we wait a few minutes and line up again. this time its in first.(i want to make him drive cause i know he's gonna spin)( he is an excellent driver also.)

so we are rolling in first , i'm at 3k rpm's. we both nail it. i hook no problem he is half a car back fighting the spin. i grab second, dont see him anywhere.(he was in my blind spot 1/2 car back) this time i take second all the way to redline, perfect shift. out of nowhere this bastard jumps in front of me 1/2 a car. we stayed that way till i reached top of 3rd then had to shut down due to road safety.

we go park the cars in the shade and let them cool for a bit. trying to figure out why he is pulling me as soon as he grabs some traction.

final race. this time i gotta win. using my sticky tires as an advantage we go from a dead stop. i had a great launch and new he was back there fighting his tires. i never looked back until i hit 4th. then i see him way back there. the [******] runs out of gas when we hit 3rd, so he was coasting. i know i had him that time, because and only because my tires hook awesome.

so now he's going down to an 18 in the rear and putting on the bfg DR's.
he ran an 11.3 at morroso on those perellies.

so is there that big of a difference between 650 rwhp N/A as opposed to S/C

his car is insane for only 550rwhp. once he puts on the drags , i dont think i stand a chance. and I'm a good driver, not as good as him, but, my car just hooks and goes in a straight line.

if you made it all the way to the botttom. I have a question for guys running the paxton on their srt. does doing a header and full exhuast make any difference. will it give me 40 more hp and some more bottom end?

thanks.

 

[DEADEYE]

Sound consistant with what they do to the '03 Cobras. Big hp deficit but big weight and gearing advantage. Your belt slippage may have gotten worse under load. What kind of dyno was it?

 

[DSR207]

"I have a question for guys running the paxton on their srt. does doing a header and full exhuast make any difference. will it give me 40 more hp and some more bottom end?"

YES...

 

[myfirstviper]

Deadeye, it was a dynojet. here at a local mustang shop in south florida.

Doug levin, put on a new belt and added a tensioner and larger cooling system. i have not dynoed it since. but i dont think the belt is still slipping.it feels faster after i got it fixed.

dont get me wrong guys. my car hauls butt, and i will waste a stock srt.(and most anything else out there),other than a more modded viper. but this z06 is one fast mother. it seems as if he has more torque but actually he dosnt i think he made just shy of 500lbs ft of torque and i made 586. so about 100 more on the torque than him as well.

DSR207, thanks for the input , i'm considering headers and ehaust system. either belanger or custom heffner job.

 

[KenricGTS]

My car dynos 705rwhp and I raced a 911 X50 and I pulled him by only a car to a car in a half. These Vipers just don't run as hard as they should.

 

[KenricGTS]

I bet my 911 turbo that puts down about 640rwhp on pump and on race gas close to 700rwhp will pull my Viper hard. Don't get me wrong I love Vipers this is my fourth viper. I just think Dodge needs to up its game with more hp and less weight.....

 

[DEADEYE]

I'm sure aerodynamics played a part at those high speeds too.

 

[Russ M]

Its all in the driving.

If your friend managed an 11.30 in his car with radials on that makes him an excellent driver. Your car should have no problems running mid 10's if you knew how to drive.

If you car has 100more rwhp and probably 150-200 more torque you should win no problem. The weight difference of 250lb's is not enough to justify him being able to beat you.

Learn how to drive that car, and I think the results will be very different next time.

 

[valentine_viper]

If you are running stock 307:1 gears and he has 343s (or there about), that would explain the situation.

 

[GR8_ASP]

Why do you think you lost 30 hp due to slippage? Was you max boost reduced? Did your power curve show a knee in the curve when slippage occurred?

620 RWHP is low for a Paxton. What was the peak torque? How about fuel air?

As to the exhaust mine added about 40 hp by adding the Mopar race exhaust versus stock exhaust san cats. Seemed much freer reving as well.

I would concur that if you are at 620 or 650 you should have won easily. A point to remember is that the Paxton requires you to take it to redline to gain the benefit fully.

 

[SnakeBitten]

Gears and weight advantage are whats killing you....Stock to stock the Viper is about 300lbs heavier...Now you add the heavy ass Supercharger and its accessories etc and you are now probably 400+lbs heavier than him...Hes got aftermarket headers which are most likely lighter than the stock slugs and a lightened flywheel so he most likly got lighter than stock....

Then we still have the problem of his aggressive gearing and a longer powerband....I can easily see why he beats you....Would love to see the dyno sheet for both of you....That would tell the story better...

 

[DEVILDOG]

Gears and weight advantage are whats killing you....Stock to stock the Viper is about 300lbs heavier...Now you add the heavy ass Supercharger and its accessories etc and you are now probably 400+lbs heavier than him...Hes got aftermarket headers which are most likely lighter than the stock slugs and a lightened flywheel so he most likly got lighter than stock....

Then we still have the problem of his aggressive gearing and a longer powerband....I can easily see why he beats you....Would love to see the dyno sheet for both of you....That would tell the story better...

Good points.

 

[GR8_ASP]

The Paxton adds about 70 lbs. That can be offset with exhaust and wheels very easily.

Gearing is not the answer for runs at higher speed. Power is and keeping the engine at its maximum power (that is one are where driving comes in). Another thing could be heat soak if the intercooler was not at a reasonable temp.

But for comparison I outrun the GT easily. And that has a similar power level which you are indicating the z06 has.

 

[Mopar426]

IMO you got beat by the DRIVER, not the car. Learn how to launch/drive and you'll see a different outcome. 100RWHP makes up the difference of weight, gearing and aerodynamics.

 

[SnakeBitten]

The Paxton adds about 70 lbs. That can be offset with exhaust and wheels very easily.

Gearing is not the answer for runs at higher speed. Power is and keeping the engine at its maximum power (that is one are where driving comes in). Another thing could be heat soak if the intercooler was not at a reasonable temp.

But for comparison I outrun the GT easily. And that has a similar power level which you are indicating the z06 has.

Well you are forgetting that a Z06 with FGT power will be much faster than a FGT....Its close to 400lbs lighter than the FGT and packing similar 550rwhp. You beating a GT doesnt mean you are beating this Z06..Gearing helps especially if you have a longer powerband...You see what the gearing did for the old C5 Z06 vs the more powerful GTS?

The stock C6 Z06 actually pulled a higher mph on a straightaway on Gingerman raceway than the FGT....With almost 70rwhp less its pretty much on the FGT's ass...It was about .3 slower around a track than the FGT..Weight alone doesnt account for it being able to keep with a much more powerful car.. 1.32.75 to the FGT's 1.32.45...Can you say damn close for a car with more than 70rwhp less than the GT? Still think gearing doesnt play into the equation? The Viper with its 3.07 gearing was more than a second behind the Vette....On one of Gingermans straightaways the Viper got killed by both the Z and the FGT....Viper = 108mph, Vette = 115mph and the FGT = 114mph....Notice the Vette was the faster by a LARGE margin over the Viper...The gearing and the powerband not to mention the weight did wonders for the least powerful car of the lot....

 

[VIPER D]

1 got 4 letters for you!


b f g 's


they are a must for paxton cars!!!!

more power is useless unless you can take atvantage of it!!!

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[Doug Supercharged Vipers]

You have to put more emphasis on your driving and not necessarily on the plus/minus deficits.

The base Paxton kit doesn't make peak power until close to redline. You don't want to short-shift because you can't take advantage of the power output. Centrifugal blowers need the rpm to make peak power.

And, after your 2nd or 3rd race the power output declines exponentially. In other words, the air to water intercooler (actually called an aftercooler) cannot dissipate the heat fast enough to keep the superchargers' charge air cool enough to pack a dense air charge into the engines cylinders. So, 6 psi of air turns into 6 psi of heat! The car wants to fall on it's face.

Case in point: I raced against a "Stock" Viper (factory stock), with my "bolt-on" Paxton supercharged Viper. The first race had me clawing for traction, too much wheel spin to keep up but eventually I did passed him. Again, we raced and the outcome was about the same. About the 3rd (or 4th) race I was getting traction but I could HARDLY pass him (although the boost gauge was reading fine). The heat was killing off the horsepower!! My 700rwhp car was almost equal to a stock Viper after the 3rd or 4th race!!

A bigger front mount heat exchanger helps a little, and a larger quantity of water will help even more. 1/4 mile drag race cars can lower charge air temps by adding ice to the water tank. Although on a street car it's not viable - the ice would melt too rapidly.

Stay safe and thanks for reading!
Doug

 

[GR8_ASP]

Good comments Doug. I have not noticed quite that much heat degradation, but there is a noticeable drop when in heated city driving.

As to the 550 hp Z06 taking on my 690 RWHP Viper because of gearing. Ya sure! With Pilot Sport Cups I can turn the tires through 3 gears. How could gear ratio improve the power getting to the ground.

Btw my stck SRT pulled 123 on the straights at Gingerman. They must have had a wuss driving the Viper. With the Paxton the limit on the straights is more related to my courage and confidence as it is the power. I can easily attain 130. But the turn ahead becomes more of a concern with added speed.

 

[GR8_ASP]

Note also that Gingerman is more of a finesse track. Main advantage is corner and corner exits speeds. Having an equal time does not mean equal acceleration. Could be the elctronic nannies rather than hp.

 

[myfirstviper]

First let me say I appreciate all the feed back.

for all you guys saying its my driving. that is absolutely not true. i am a good driver, my friend is an excellent driver. however, what i love about my car is that in 1st gear at 3k rpm's i can nail the peddle to the floor and stand on it and the tires don't spin. so all i have to due is hold her in a straight line, while my buddy is feathering his throttle and fighting to keep his car straight.

i don't power shift, but i do shift as fast as possible. when i bang second, sometimes(depending on the road and heat conditions) the tires slip for just a tenth or two of a second. thats it. throttle to the floor and shift just before redline. i did however underestimate the first run we did when we started in second and i shifted just a bit to soon and was not in the power ban for 3rd.didnt know his car would be so quick.

we are both running stock gears. so i have to shift while he can hold it to 7200rpm. thats when he seems to pull me by 1/2 a car. going in to third

all of you guys that talked about weight and gearing and aerodynamics. thats what me and my friend think makes the difference.

if i go to more hp with an exhaust and get a little quicker on the bottom power. then i might sacrifice the easy driving of my car. like i said it hooks and goes in a straight line. even though i do know how to handle it if the tires started spinning and such.

when we raced the last race (super charger really hot) we went from a dead stop. i had him beat by 1 car length until he hit the middle of third and ran out of gas. but i was pulling on him and don't believe he would have caught up to me.

i dont need drag radials. my toyo's are awesome and they drive good in the rain.

however, once he puts on the drags. i think he will take me because he is the better driver and he won't be slipping at all.

i guess, its funny because these races only had to do with his driving ability. if it would have been any other joe blow driving his car there is no way they would have hung anywhere next to me.for the fact they couldnt handle the power of his car.

he also says that a car with 550 natrually assparated would out run the same car with a 550 from a s/c.

i just watched a show on tv about the viper and the ford GT at the end they had two regular guys race each other at the track.

first run for the viper and the guy was in the 14's and the gt in the 13's. now thats a ****** driver.

they raced 3 times. viper beet the gt second race and the last race the gt won. the best time out of all 3 races was the gt at like 12.6 or something close. viper finished two tenths behind.

obviously with real drivers the gt would have broken in to the high 11,s and possibly the viper also.

i got beet by the car. with a damn good driver behind the wheel.

i just got to give my boys z06 the respect it deserves. it is one hard pulling ,screaming animal.

if he ran an 11.3 with street tires, do you think when he puts on the drags he can pull a 10.99. that is what he is hoping for.

as for me, after seeing that show with the ford GT, I might just go get me a yellow one with a black stripe. a little work and they will put down 700 hp and they look like they drive nice.

so KENRICKGTS which one of yours drives better. the viper or the GT?

again, thanks for all the feed back.

Doug Levin I will be seeing you soon my friend.

 

[twinturbo3150]

that is absolutely not true. i am a good driver, my friend is an excellent driver.

I would have to say that it is the driver, you just stated that you are a good driver and your friend is a excellent driver!!!!!! So there ya go you just answered your own question!!

 

[myfirstviper]

SO RUSS M in so cal. not to be a [******] but you honestly think that a stock srtc with a paxton with only 6lbs of boost can run in the mid tens.

come on bro. lets get realistic. plus i dont have 150 -200 more lbs feet of torque. read my post. he put down just a hair under 500(496) i put down 586. i dynoed at 620 rwhp he dynoed same dyno at 550. i was speculating with the 30hp slipping belt when it dynoed. lets stick to the #'s that come from both cars.out of the dyno

so that only me having 90 more torque
and only 70 more rwhp.

my car is tuned very conservative for safe power.

MOPAR 426... you say i should learn how to launch. however if you read my post you would see that he pulled me from a high speed roll. except for the last race . where i clearly state i wanted to go from a dead stop because i do have comp sticky tires and i do know how to launch.

you guys are so quick to blame it on my driving. i made one crucial mistake in one race. that was not winding 2nd out all the way i expected i could get away with a 5500rpm shift because i underestimated him. that has nothing to do with traction.

how many times do i have to say it. with 620 rwhp. i can stand wot thru every gear in a straight line with tiny to zero wheel spin. go get yourself some toyo ra1's. i love the fact that i dont have to concentrate on feathering the throttle and correcting my rear end....although as i stated i am an above average driver and do know how to deel with that when it happens or if it happens. like when the car was stock.

sorry , dont want to sound rude, but i can drive my car.

 

[myfirstviper]

twinturbo3150... yes it would come down to driver if both cars were equal. however. they are not. i should clearly have the advantage. more hp. more tq, tires that dont slip.

if the roles were reversed and i was driving his car and he mine. he would have beaten me by far more than 1 car. for the fact that i wouldnt have been able to drive his car as good as him and now i would be in the lesser hp car.

so in that case, yes, he would have been the better driver. but he wouldnt need to be because he would be driving my car with no traction problems, more hp and more tq.

i got beat by the car. with a man driving it to its full potential. what happens when he puts on the bfg drags and traction and going in a straight line without fighting the wheel are no longer an issue??

we will soon see, as he already has the tires and is just looking for a cheap set of 18's for the rear.

 

[GR8_ASP]

Sounds like you have a problem. The Paxton system should provide about 8 psi boost, not 6. I hit 6 psi around 5000 rpm.

As to torque I only have 620 ft lb. But it is almost constant from 3000 to 6000 rpm.

It sounds like the tune or somthing else is reducing your systems potential.

 

[MaxedGTS]

the stock paxton kit only makes about 6,7 pounds of boost at 5000 rpm.where are you shifting at? Add the heat you have in s.florida and the boost cant be all that good if you dont go to redline. i've never seen a paxton srt viper run mid tens, not saying it can't be done just haven't seen it. The zo6 with alot of work would be a toss up between the two. The paxton srt would be low 11's, the zo6 with work low 11's to. In this case driving is everything!!!!!!
Max

 

[KenricGTS]

John the GT drives better. But lets not forget it is twice the price. I have an 18psi pulley on the car and a tune it pulled 640rwhp hot pull after pull with stock filters and exhaust. You will not be disapointed if you get a GT. The car just pulls and pulls it fills like it will hit 200 no problem. I love the GT! I would love to get another one and store it and drive my black one. Save one for latter.

 

[KenricGTS]

John when you race the Z again make sure and coast between races to cool your aftercooler and engine. Just cruise between races in like 4th. And when you go the track ice your aftercooler. I am wondering Doug can chime in on this but, why not put a 50hp shot of nos to intercool the boost. It worked great for me when I ran supercharged Mustangs. Doug could put that small shot of NOS in like a couple of hours. You will kill that z

 

[prevnine11ownr]

If your Paxton kit isn't spinning in first and half of 2nd (even in Hot weather) somethings wrong ....Trust me ! I have Pirrelli's (sp) on mine and I leave a football field length of rubber ! I yanked a whipple'd cobra pretty bad the other day....

 

[BlueGTS]

Doug hit the nail on the head; heat soak is what killed you. If you started at 620rwhp you could have easily been down to 570rwhp after 1 or 2 hard pulls. That is way too close to the Z's 550rwhp. Now factor in that he weighs 350lbs less and you see what happened. Peak HP numbers are fun to put in signature but they do not tell the whole story on the street. Can you post your dyno graph? I would like to see your HP curve.

 

[zorroespanol]

From what you say, 3 things could be happening:

A- your "friend" has a hidden bottle of Laughing gas and is doing just that with you, laughing.

B-Your car is in serious need of tuning, whether the S/C, plugs, fuel pump/filter, or even a clutch slipping.

C-You cannot drive your way out of a paperbag.

It is THAT simple. so which one is it???