Brake Fade?

[Fatboy 18]

Hi there, wonder if anyone can give me advice on this one

So I'm running the car hard around a test track yesterday, giving joy rides for charity. After just coming off the track, entering the paddock area, I put my foot on the brake pedal and it almost goes straight to the floor!!
I have factory brakes on my car (2000 GTS) I stopped the car on the handbrake! I pump the pedal a couple of times and pressure comes back up? The brake fluid level is fine. But the brakes are very very hot.
Is this known as 'brake fade' due to possibly overheating the brake fluid?

I let the car cool down again for 1/2 hr and all seemed fine
Drove car home with no problems

Thanks
Mark

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Smiles on faces ,i think that says it all

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2000 Fast Red Lightning Mc Queen Creampuff GTS

 

[dave6666]

You probably boiled the fluid. You should change it at your earliest convenience, and obviously address the heat issue.

You didn't say... What fluid are you running?

And since you give us the pleasure of pics, I give you the return courtesy of that's a very sharp looking red GTS. Yellow cars will never have brake fade, as they can never achieve braking speeds!

 

[ViperGeorge]

As Dave says change your fluid completely. I use Motul 600. Also check your linings. If they are too thin they don't dissipate heat quickly enough and the fluid absorbs too much of it. They make a cooling fin that attaches to the lower control arm that forces more air to the rotors and helps cool them. You might also consider going with a non-OEM rotor like StopTechs. They're grooved to keep the linings cleaner and the linings and rotors cooler. Don't used cross drilled rotors as they can crack on the track.

 

[Fatboy 18]

Great stuff, Yep I thought it might be a Heat issue, but wanted to confirm it As for the Stoptechs..... There way out of my price range for the moment. Still, I guess I better start saving

Oh the other thing I smelt at peak revs was the clutch
Still I gave the Lambos a run for their money Hitting 130mph on the straights before entering the banking at around 80mph

 

[AZTVR]

Hitting 130mph on the straights before entering the banking at around 80mph

That is one heck of a banked turn there in that first shot !

It looks like you must have put a long lasting grin on the faces of a few riders !!!

That has got to feel good !

 

[GR8_ASP]

One more piece of advice: make sure you do a cool down lap to let the car cool down before bringing in to the paddock. Bad things can happen when you pit a hot car immediately without cooling.

 

[Detlef]

Happened to me too last year. Changed to Motul 600 and that went away. I also second the cool down lap advice, drive slow and don't use your brakes if you can during that last lap.

 

[Fatboy 18]

That is one heck of a banked turn there in that first shot !

It looks like you must have put a long lasting grin on the faces of a few riders !!!

That has got to feel good !

That banking was steep, here's another shot of my car just comming off the straight and begining to enter the loop, if you in the background, you can see another car exiting the loop

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Here's another shot. The shot below is looking from the other direction.

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The realy steep bit starts just after that black and white post in the foreground

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Great stuff, Yep I thought it might be a Heat issue, but wanted to confirm it As for the Stoptechs..... There way out of my price range for the moment. Still, I guess I better start saving

Two options:

Those clever boys in NASCAR have developed a brake fluid recirculation system so that when you press the brake pedal fluid travels from master cylinder to caliper but when you release the pedal, brake fluid returns to the master cylinder via a second set of brake lines. The fluid doesn't pass through a heat exchanger, but the mere fact that the fluid is not permanently resident in the caliper greatly reduces the temperatures. See the image for my installation. Their valve is ~$200, I used stainless braided lines for the long tubing (to avoid measuring and bending) and the crossover tube (part number is for another application) was made up.
Images

For sale (not endorsement) here
DPI Racing Products Online
This places seems to be having a sale for $63 (also not endorsement)
STEWART COMP | D.BRAKE RESURCULATOR
Woodhouse Dodge uses them and installs them.

More info:
Brake systems: OEM & racing brake ... - Google Books

Another option is to lessen the work done by the fronts and ask the rear brakes to do more work. Larger rear calipers are available for 20% of the big brake kit cost. If you need any info on those... let me know!

 

[ssnaked]

Also consider stainless steel brake lines.

 

[Fatboy 18]

Thank you very much for the imput Tom That seems a very good price for the recycle pump

Mark

 

[ViperGeorge]

Does someone sell a complete fluid recirculation kit for the Viper? I've been wanting to add one but never wanted to fabricate the lines and mounting brackets.

 

[Fatboy 18]

Does someone sell a complete fluid recirculation kit for the Viper? I've been wanting to add one but never wanted to fabricate the lines and mounting brackets.

I believe Snake Oyl products lists one, but when I contacted them about costings it was (I Thought) rather expensive. They list it in their catalogue but not on the website

Mark

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Years ago I thought Woodhouse offered them. I am even more sure that they put them on their race cars. Since they are a bunch of nutty enthusiasts there I would think they still could provide it.

The only fabrication I did was the connecting brake line for the front calipers that replaced the bleeder screws. I roughly measured the return line length and bought flexible line at least that long (it comes in certain lengths) instead of trying to bend hard line. I used simple hold down clamps and attached then to the frame via self-tapping screws. I put a rubber hose around the brake line where the clamp contacts it. For the short hard line between the "valve" and the master cylinder I bought the shortest line I could find. I think I needed a "T" connector to join the two return lines.

If you could purchase the piece that replaces the bleeder screws (needs a little welding or silver soldering) then everything else for me was off the shelf, relatively inexpensive material.

 

[JRitt]

I didn't see any comments from you about your pads, but that could be the issue as well. Here's an article I recently wrote that addresses the use of stock pads on the track:

How to Choose the Best Street and Track Brake Pads

 

[Leslie]

The better brakes you have-the faster you can go and the deeper you can go into the apex. I found I couldn't go very fast with stock brakes, couldn't stop the car and didn't feel safe.

I run Motul 660 vs the 600 fluid, if you can afford a more aggressive pad that would be great, but then if you are running stock rotors you might have a problem there too

Do you have cooling ducts..?

 

[Fatboy 18]

Thanks Leslie

 

[Neil - UK]

stock brakes are a joke on the road never mind a full day at the track Mark as youve found out, there's lots of options out there, and ways to help improve the setup some arent expensive

you need to have a go in Bjorn's CC with the £12K Oreca brake upgrade to feel what proper brakes are like

 

[Leslie]

Thanks Leslie

hey no problem! You have an awsome looking Viper, you just need to get the brakes to match then you can REALLLLLLY go fast, brake LAAATE and dance around that track!

 

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

I had a couple sets of these left on the shelf from years ago but parted most of them out to existing users since the demand was low. I can look and see what is left if you would like to try and finish the recirculating system on your car. They were a LOT of money back in the day and I could probably help out if I have enough to do the kit for you.

 

[2MANYTOYS]

I didn't see any comments from you about your pads, but that could be the issue as well. Here's an article I recently wrote that addresses the use of stock pads on the track:

How to Choose the Best Street and Track Brake Pads

Great article!!!! Nice job .

 

[Fatboy 18]

I too have just read that article

Very good.
Thanks for the link

Mark

 

[Fatboy 18]

Also consider stainless steel brake lines.

Yep, on the list

 

[Viper X]

Quick suggestions:

1- Change brake fluid to Motul 600. Do a complete bleed. This will take about 3 pints.
2 - Install track pads, Brakeman III's or Porterfield R4's up front
3 - Install the Cone cooling kit up front. This ducts air to the front brakes. Big difference, not too much dough and you can do it yourself.
4 - Bigger brakes work very well (SRT-10). Dave's big brake kit works well and is less costly than most. You can install SRT brakes up front and move your fronts to the back.

Call Jon B. He can set you up with all three of these.

Dan

 

[Fatboy 18]

Thanks for the imput

Mark

 

[Dom426h]

I realize this was 2 months ago but Fatboy; How old was your brake fluid?
and how many trackdays did you run on it?


nice pics!

 

[Paul Hawker]

Gen II's had braking issues.

At the track you usually get kind of a warning shot, where the brake pedal is weak, but then on the next use, the totally go away. If you feel them getting weak, pull into the pits, or just drive around easy for a while till they cool off.

Easiest partial fix is to upgrade to Motul or other higher temp fluids.

Another hint is not to use your emergency brake when comming into the pits hot. Just use 1st gear to hold the car till it cools off.

 

[Fatboy 18]

I realize this was 2 months ago but Fatboy; How old was your brake fluid?
and how many trackdays did you run on it?


nice pics!

Honestly No Idea, Ive owned the car now for 18 months and have not yet changed it myself! The fluid looked very clean in the car when I got it?

Ive not done any 'full on' Track days apart from the last one which I was pushing the car as hard as I could. I don't plan to use the car much at all now as winter closes in, Its the perfect time for a full fluid change, I have also Just got some parts from Tators to put on the car too, A new gearbox oil seal and a complete set of replacement Valve guide oil seals.

With regard to the Braking issues I will most certainly change the fluid and upgrade it. I'm at the budget end of Viper ownership, but oh boy do I love this car I have also been asked to display the car at the International Auto Sport show in January. Cant wait to see it under the lights

Thanks for the input
Mark

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

I'm at the budget end of Viper ownership...

Note to self: flesh out details for a group buy for guys in the UK.