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Gen 4 FULL Belanger set up. Opinions?

Discussion in 'SRT10 and SRT10 Coupe Discussions' started by VIPER GTSR 91, Jan 26, 2011.

  1. bmw2nv2000

    bmw2nv2000 Viper Owner

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    I am so jealous of you Gen 4 guys. All you have to do is add filters, full exhaust, and a mopar PCM to see 600+ rwhp:omg:
     
  2. SilveRT8

    SilveRT8 Viper Owner

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    This video is always great to compare different exhausts on Gen4
    [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwRZEG9PVf4&feature=related[/media]
     
  3. VIPER PIT

    VIPER PIT Viper Owner

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    And now I just don't know which way to go. Guess I will wait till I can here the BBG exhaust in person before I pull the trigger.
     
  4. CCBrian

    CCBrian Enthusiast

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    Neither one sounds like that (higher pitch). On my Gen 4 the sound is different than that of my Comp Coupe with Belangers-different motors I guess. Georges car with the ACR-X headers sounds like my Comp Coupe does...which is pretty loud and bad ass...not high pitched.
     
  5. Canyon707

    Canyon707 Viper Owner

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    I think there is a video of TrackAire running it on some back road in Vacaville. The sound is good. So take a listen or write TrackAire (George) maybe he can direct you to the link.



     
  6. Nyoka

    Nyoka Viper Owner

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    Here's a copy of a letter I wrote Lou Belanger:

    Lou;

    I promised to report on the final dyno test of my '08 Viper, after installing the MOPAR Stage 1 ECM. The quick background is:

    Baseline - Pure Stock: 533/503; car had ~5,000 miles on it.

    Follow-up - Belangers to stock mufflers/tailpipes; fresh spark plugs; Royal Purple trans oil: 551/514; car had ~18,000 miles on it, 500+ post Belanger

    Latest - As above + MOPAR Stage 1 ECM: 559/535; car had ~28,000 miles on it.

    I was told (by you), when planning for the installation, that the cat used for the stock muffler application is identical (flow-wise) to those used in your complete back-to-front system; therefore the only difference would be my stock mufflers and tailpipes vs. those supplied by you in a complete package. You noted that the stock mufflers would not be an impediment.

    For your research files, please note that the second set of headers ordered at the same time as mine went on another 2008 Viper Coupe with an identical power train. This comparison Viper also installed a Stage 1 ECM so the only difference between it and mine was his Belanger mufflers and tailpipes.

    This identical Viper produced 577/550 on the same dyno, same operator: +18 HP, + 15 TQ more than mine. My "total package" gain from pure stock trim (533/503): 26 HP (+5%), 32 TQ (+6%) with the new ECM. His total package gain from pure stock trim (529/499) is an impressive: 48 HP (+9%), 51 TQ (+10%).

    Conclusion: the complete Belanger set up works as advertised providing you have a Stage 1 ECM installed.

    I also conclude that the price for a quieter cabin in this very clean GEN IV comparison is measurably less power gains: stock mufflers do rob substantial power."


    Earlier, I had problems with the downstream O2 sensor wires rubbing the shields, eventually wearing out and throwing a code...some serious twisting of the system under WOT is the cause. My solution was to install neoprene transmission and engine mounts to mitigate the torque twist. The additional benefit (and original intention) is noticeably improved handling on the track with a negligible amount of extra cabin vibration. If you install the Mopar ECM you needn't worry about these O2s at all (ECM doesn't recognize them so they can be neutered).

    I chose Belanger over ARH after extensive research and on more than one measure, but after learning that all of the ACR-X records were set with Belangers I couldn't rationalize the ARHs, even though they are less expensive.

    At VOI 11, during a tech session, this subject came up and Dick Winkle said the differences between the two brands was, "a couple of HP" but not everywhere on the power band. In some places one outdid the other and vice-versa. Mr. Winkle could not explain why ARH-equipped motors required asbestos socks for the plugs and wires if, as was stated, the ARH headers ran as cool as Belangers. As some of you know, supplier selection isn't always straight-forward and, politics aside, the performance differences are negligible according to Mr. Winkle and company.

    Everyone has a preference but Jon B's point of view is shared by many and is identical to that of my supplier, who also sells both brands. And headers without the ECM is a mistake: another club member here installed the ECM on his '08 ACR without headers; he's going back to stock after a weaker-than-stock dyno test confirmed what he was feeling under foot after a year with the Stage 1.

    Lastly, the difference in cabin noise at highway speeds (stock vs. Belanger mufflers) is huge. I don't think I would have been comfortable making the 5,000-mile round trip to VOI 11 with aftermarket mufflers but others may not be feel that way. If you don't generally drive on long cruises go with the complete system from whomever you choose: the stock mufflers hurt my dyno #s.
     
  7. Viper X

    Viper X VCA Member - South VCA Member

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    Want louder?

    Pull the cats - car screams!

    Belangers + Corsa Track, no cats for the track.

    Dan
     
  8. Adrenaline Junkie

    Adrenaline Junkie Viper Owner

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    So I'm looking very seriously at Belanger setup for my 2004 vert. My priority is to have the car truly sound like the beast that it is - this is followed by a desire for reduced cabin heat. Gaining hp is nice too, but a distant 3rd in priority for me since I only use the car as a recreational driver and do not run it on the track.

    You'll have to execuse my ignorance, but I am curious what the benefits would be to go with the full Belanger headers, exhaust and cats, vs just going with Belanger headers and exhaust. What does the cat replacement buy me? If it does make sense to replace the cats what are opinions on my options considering the above priorities?

    I've also seen reference to the PCM upgrade. Is this required for me in New York State?
     
  9. X-Metal

    X-Metal Viper Owner

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    guys here is mho and personal experience:

    too bought the acrx headers. it was a mistake. the belanger's are a million times better quality, better craftsmanship, run cooler, fit RIGHT, and install way easier and make the same power.
    in fact the 2 highest hp gen 4 cars are running belangers.
    i made a knee jerk reaction and it was a mistake.
    i had 2 customer cars and mine here to put headers on.(an o8 and a '10) and installed headers on all. one got belanger, the other got acr-x headers.
    they both made the same power before on our dyno and after (the belangers made a bit more torque)
    however the acr-arh headers have warped flanges, are mig welded, and were a super PIA to install. i will never again recommend anyone use them. even the Blenager 02 sensor wire extensions and hardware are a zillion times better quality.

    belanger even puts secondary heat shields on the cats and collectors.

    i called arh about the warped flanges, 3 times. no one seemed to care..........
    you could just look at them and see they were warped a bunch. on a straight edge they were both warped over 1/2" to the right, both headers the same way which shows me its a consistant problem with heat draw and ARH jig fixtures. i had 2 sets both the same way.
    i had to port match the acr-arh headers where they bolt together and i couldnt do anything about the flanges-it will probably be a constant retorque on the flanges to keep them sealed. i am not even going to go into how much of a PIA it is to bolt together the mid sections of the ARH headers. if they would have used a bit more thought and offset the the 2 out most holes it wouldnt take 30 minutes to tighten 2 bolts..........or make them a 5-1 slip fit merge like B&B or hennesy
    checked the Belangers and they are laser straight, and perfect fit everywhere..

    if i wanted the pain and agony of pulling the arh headers off i would sell them and install the belangers in their place.
     
  10. TrackAire

    TrackAire Viper Owner

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    Holy crap, your flanges were out 1/2"?? That's not warped, thats bent to hell!

    Who did you buy them from and why did they not take care of the problem? I'd let the forum know who supplied them so others can be aware of the customer service (or lack of it) issue. I would have never accepted something defective like that. Mine had about 1 mm of what I would call warped, but really, on a 5 cylinder long one piece flange nothing to really worry about (4000 miles and no problems so far). Once the flanges got torque down correctly and heat cycled on the car there are no issues (probably would have heard of failures on the 20 or so ACRX race cars if they did have some sort of problem).

    How did you even start the bolts in the head heads with that much run out? I'm suprised you still mounted something that screwed up on a customers car :dunno:

    BBG sold me a complete installation fastner kit with a list of what tools (sockets, extensions and swivel) are needed for a fast install. I watched Toddy install mine and the hardest part of the whole installation was removing the stock manifolds out of the car. Give him a call and let him know what you're up against and see if he can be of any help. We have 4 or 5 cars just in the NorCal Region with ACRX Headers and none of the problems you've been through.

    Good luck and I hope you get it worked out for you and your customers sake.

    Cheers,
    George
     
  11. 4 NEIL

    4 NEIL Viper Owner

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    I have the full set Belanger system plus race PCM...,it is great....no issues
     
  12. X-Metal

    X-Metal Viper Owner

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    its all good now and irrelevant. i bolted the headers down to a steel table and heat cycled the flange with a torch. then went back and lightly machined the flange.

    this type of problem is common with mass produced mig welded headers.
    i havent had to install old school headers like the ARH in years. after putting on B&B, burns and bellanger for the past couple of years, i didnt think anyone made stuff like this for high end cars like the Viper. ARH headers are what you expect from Summit or Jegs for a 78 camaro...........
    for what they cost i couldnt believe that they were mig welded and such mediocre quality.
    the insides were still full of metal grit and cut off wheel grindings.
    i spent a good 3-4 hours fixing them and then cleaning them before i could bolt them on. since then i have made heat shields to protect the lines, ac box and wiring on both sides. the end result is there, but not with out lot of work.
    i need to post pics of my B&B headers on my gen 2 and gen 3..they are works of art.
    hell even the stainless works on my ford raptor and dyna techs on my challenger are pretty and tig welded, with better collectors.
    we sell and install racing exhaust everyday for motorcycles. the quality of any one of those headers would run circles around the ARH headers........in fact if a company offered a product constructed like the ARH it would be banished from the market.
    my point is the ARH is way over priced for what you get........
     
  13. TrackAire

    TrackAire Viper Owner

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    X-Metal,

    You had two sets of headers that were defective and were not able to return them or get any help? :dunno: How can you say it is not relevant to the situation? With all the problems and claims you made in the above post, why not name the supplier?

    I met Nick from ARH at the VOI, seemed like an approachable guy. Is he the person at ARH you contacted and he would not help? If so, I would like to hear what he has to say. If you didn't talk to Nick, then who at ARH did you talk to? That would be good information to know for other VCA members who are thinking of buying ARH products.

    Did you call Toddy at BBG to get any help?...he is the go to guy when it comes to the GEN 4 ACR-X headers. I know he's been busy this weekend finishing a header installation on a customers car and picking up his new Gen 4 ACR Viper, but I'm sure he's available to answer any questions or help out with any problems you might have.

    You posted the following:

    "i couldnt do anything about the flanges-it will probably be a constant retorque on the flanges to keep them sealed."

    Your next post then claims all is good with the quote:

    "i bolted the headers down to a steel table and heat cycled the flange with a torch. then went back and lightly machined the flange"

    I appreciate facts and now your posts don't make sense. If ARH sold you the headers, then they should be held accountable. If they are not stepping up the to the plate with service after the sale, they should held accountable. With the prices we're paying for these Viper parts, service and support after the the sale really matters. That's why it is importatnt to know who is selling Viper parts and not standing behind the product they sell, don't you agree???

    When it comes to quality issues, I look at facts. The ACR-X racecars ran all race season last year and are starting a new season at Sebring with the ACR-X headers, haven't heard of any problems. I can't think of any street driven Vipers that will ever come close to the stress that the actual race ACR-X cars put the headers through. We have multiple NorCal region members with the ACR-X headers and none of the problems you've listed.

    It sounds like you have a shop that does installs for customers. It doesn't matter how good a header design is, if the units are not installed correctly, use the correct gasket and torqued correctly you'll have problems. The installer is just as important as the header IMO.

    Cheers,
    George
     
  14. X-Metal

    X-Metal Viper Owner

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    George, first off you need to chill out. how i handle my supplier problems is my concern, not yours. i simply stated the facts about a manufactor build flaw.

    installation doesn’t have a damn thing to do with the flanges originally being warped from ARH.

    fact: the flanges on the ARH headers were warped on 2 sets of headers
    fact: i own and operate a modern CNC machine and fabrication shop. yes we do tig welding and have done our own headers before. so i do know what i am doing and talking about- we also have our own tuning center as well

    fact : i called and asked to speak with Nick 3 times, he was busy. i was told " oh that’s common, just bolt em on...." my reply, " no that’s not common, i have been doing this for 25 years. this isn’t common.

    fact: is it fixable. yes, should i have to? answer: no

    Fact: i run 3 business and i am hands on in all of them. if i can’t get a manufacture to step up and get it fixed quick. then i do it myself, and i do whatever i have to get the job done for my customer. i only have so much time in the day to get stuff done. and bitching at somebody over the phone aint getting it done
    that’s why i have my own CNC machine and fab shop. I’ll just do it my damn self

    fact: A&C performance had the same issue with ARH. it’s a common thing with high heat-mig welded mass produced headers, that have thinner flange thickness such as ARH. if they tig welded the flange, we wouldn’t be having this post.

    Fact: God Bless Toddy, but he didn’t build or design the headers, this aint got nothing to do with him.

    fact: if you knew anything about tig welding-exhaust system fabrication, and have installed hundreds of header systems like i have: then you might not stick your foot into your mouth.

    fact: will anybody who bought ARH headers regret it. no, they will be fine.
    fact: the overall mechanics of the ARH system is a decent one. it’s the same one the Edelbrock had over a decade ago. it wasn’t anything new, bolting together a header in the middle is the easiest way to manufacture it.
    ARH, just duplicated what Edelbrock did and made it fit the new head; i just don’t care for the craftsman ship, mig welding, warped flanges, and collector design.

    fact: is ARH headers over priced? heck yes, when you can look at a beautiful TIG welded and polished B&B system for less money, and get a superior collector design and a system that slides together in half the time
    .

    if you like ARH headers, then by all means run out and get a pair. the ones i installed it will be the last ones i recommend to anyone. i wasn’t here to start a war, just sharing my personal experience like everyone else.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2011
  15. TrackAire

    TrackAire Viper Owner

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    For me, this isn't about which header is better, its about buying something and getting what you expect and paid for.

    Your right, I don't know how to weld. I don't own a CNC machine shop. So when I spend my money for something I expect to get what I paid for, not to have to re-engineer the dang thing and spend time and money to make it right....maybe thats just me but for those of us that don't have a welding and fab shop like you, it only makes sense. A lot of people do the installs themselves on their garage floor at home. Whether its headers or a suspension kit, DIY's hope bolt on means bolt on.

    Personally, I like to deal with vendors or dealers that will be there to support me after the sale. If there is a problem with the product (like a major defect), I'm asking my dealer for my money back and he can chase the manufacturer for his. Thats why I asked who the supplier is and how they handled the situation.

    You've been doing headers for a long time and a "defect" like this doesn't throw you for a loop, but for the rest of us it's a PITA to deal with at home.

    Cheers
    George
     
  16. BAD BOYZZ GARAGE

    BAD BOYZZ GARAGE Enthusiast

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    As the founding company that brought the ACRX =BAD BOYZZ SERIES= merge style header program to Chrysler Engineering, I must chime in to comment on this post.

    If anyone is having any issues with our ARH Gen 4 headers please contact me directly and I can take care of it for you. We are experts on installation techniques, tool requirements, and hardware solutions (Bolt Kits) that will improve the installation process to ensure a solid build. We will give you the straight scope and can turn a DIY novice installer into a succesful weekend warrior, advise you to consider the local Viper tech if needed and answer questions for professional installers. We also have units and components in stock to ensure top notch service for the Viper community and it's tuners.

    After one successful race season for the VRL ACRX cars and season 2 ready to hit Versus air waves next week at Sebring, we want to assure you that when an adjustment or correction needs to be made the manufacture ARH responds and takes our recommendations to the production bench.

    We are not commenting on any vendors or members opinions, we just want everyone to know that when it comes to ACRX Headers you can count on BBG to get the job done, since it's our Baby!

    BAD BOYZZ GARAGE, INC.
    Toddy Gomez - President
    3951 Development Drive. Unit 9
    Sacramento, CA. 95838
    [email protected]dboyzzgarage.com
    (916)505-9026

    =DISTRIBUTORS OF POWER=:usa:


    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2011
  17. SRT Engineers

    SRT Engineers SRT Engineers VCA Member

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    After trying to read through this mess, we felt the need to backup ARH and their products. We cannot say enough good things about ARH and Nick. They were one of our best partners on the ACR-X program. Dodge installed 50 headers in an OE assembly plant, down the Viper line without issue. They do have a bow at the header flange when new, but this relaxes the first time they are heat cycled on the engine, and was honestly never a concern. We never experienced a single exhaust leak at the plant and we haven't had one issue with ACR-X's in Viper Cup or elsewhere. Dodge is so happy with the performance of ARH, they even upgraded their VCC that won Road Atlanta in February. They have also spec'd ARH for future GT3 engine packages. Kuno Wittmer and Woodhouse ran their headers all last season as well and never had an issue (other than a bit too much speed at Long Beach).

    We will also clarify a couple discussion items from other posts for everyone, since we know the real history pretty well!


    We decided to spec the heat socks regardless of the header type. The street car has dual wall manifolds, so heat is not as much of a concern. We tested all cars without boots and never had an issue, but thought it was cheap added protection for a full season of heat. We do use the stock plug wire heat shields in addition. The socks protect the area at the top of the plug wire, where the wire meets the plug.


    The 5-1 design has always proven superior for mid-range torque. This was the case on the GTS-R program and also found again on the ACR-X. When engineering tested ARH on the Chrysler engine dyno, they were the best for both the mid-range and top end HP. It was a challenge to meet the 640hp target on the X and ARH made it happen.


    We agree that TIG welds do look nicer than MIG welds. However, we do know that it doesn't mean they are better. On the ACR-X and the Dodge NASCAR roll cages, you will find MIG welds. The reason for this is due to the welder technology of today. Modern, high grade MIG welders have much better penetration control due to their adaptive current designs. Chrysler spent a good amount of time in their welding labs researching this, and we have to assume ARH did the same. May not look as pretty, but looks very nice when you cut the welds apart and look at them under a microscope. Since we have never seen a cracked weld on the headers, we have to say they are doing a good job, and SS is such a good header material to begin with (and by the way, stainless steel has a lower thermal conductivity than alumacoated mild steel - ceramic coating the alsteel will get you about the same thermal conductivity as stainless!).

    Additionally, any type of header will change the catalyst monitor and O2 switching diagnostics enough that they should ALL set CEL's eventually - All header systems should use the MOPAR controller, ARH or Bellanger to avoid CEL's!

    It's unfortunate that there was a bad experience with ARH. All we can say is that our experiences and Dodge's testing programs both show spotless records with ARH. We can't say enough good things about Nick and his team.
     
  18. VIPER GTSR 91

    VIPER GTSR 91 Viper Owner

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    Good write up SRT. Thanks.
     
  19. jpa99acr

    jpa99acr Enthusiast

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    I had a full Belanger setup on my first Viper (GTS), and one of my favorite parts about it was the "burble" pop when I decelerated in 2nd gear. You mean there is no popping with the Mopar PCM on the Gen 4?? :dunno:

     
  20. Malu59RT

    Malu59RT Viper Owner

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    I like how SRT just came in the thread and set the record straight.

    [​IMG]

    ^^SRT
     
  21. Viper X

    Viper X VCA Member - South VCA Member

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    Always good to hear from SRT - wish they'd participate more frequently.
     
  22. VicTxV10

    VicTxV10 Viper Owner

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    Yeah, me too!! Thanks SRT!!!:2tu:
     
  23. shooter_t1

    shooter_t1 Has Left the Room!

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    ^^^^this^^^^

    $1800 difference between what we pay per set, and what Dodge paid.
     
  24. alpha85

    alpha85 VCA Member - South VCA Member

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    08 Bellangers, exhaust, hi flo cats, Mopar PCM, 93 octane, dynoed 630rwhp, 613rwtq. Its not that loud. The only thing I have noticed is an erratic idle sometimes when it is hot. It will almost die, and has once.
     
  25. MTGTS

    MTGTS Viper Owner

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    Gonna go with this as well. If I were in the market for headers I'd be looking for Bellangers.
     
  26. FLATOUT

    FLATOUT Viper Owner

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    With Shooter as well.
     
  27. ACPERFORMANCE

    ACPERFORMANCE Viper Owner

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    Wow! Crazy Thread.

    I had to chime in here.

    Gary at X-metal, for as long as I have ever dealt with him, has been golden to me.

    Nick at American racing from the day I met him has been golden to me.

    I would do anything for both of these guys.

    I have to say that I am not sure what happened then on these headers that Gary Received. I'd have to say maybe Nick was ill or something if he didn't get back to you. Heck I know we all get overwhelmed , but when I have an issue, I can reach Nick at 9pm and he always rectifies it period. No questions asked, IF there is a problem which is very rare.

    I have had some issues where only a Bung was in the wrong location and when I call Nick, he overnights me a new set, period.

    I have to say that I've run all kinds of headers. Even had some Belangers that made no additional power on a Gen4 when I tested it. And from the beginning, I personally love the ARH headers quality and fit...AND Nick. I would use Gary at X Metal for anything! The guy is awesome and delivers great products. AND builds some BAD ASS BIG BORE SPORT BIKES on top of Viper work!

    It's too bad things ended this way between two great guys that really bend over backwards for people.

    I'll still say that when Headers are called for, I take Nick and American Racing over Belanger any day.

    And if I have to say with Nick and Gary. Man, how bout you guys fly out here to me and I'll buy dinner and patch this up. You guys seriously are both so straight up and honest you'd want to deal with eachother! :)

    Todd
    A&C Performance
     
  28. X-Metal

    X-Metal Viper Owner

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    Todd, you are truly a class act. i appreciate your friendship and the example you set.
    After talking to you yesterday, it really puts things into perspective. you truly care about your customers and your friends and you constantly put everyone before your self.
    thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule just to call. thanks for helping me hash this stuff out.

    Nick @ ARH:
    i am sorry we had to ever get to this level, and let our communication break down as it did.'
    got your message and as soon as i get a free second i wanted to call you back during business hours. we have been swamped at work too, and i look forward to speaking with you again.

    that being said Nick at ARH has reached out to me and has 120% convinced me that he really cares about his customers and he is committed to their satisifaction, and he is dedicated to building a good product.
    its nice to know there is a company whose owner cares enough to go the extra mile and make things right.

    i gotta admit, there are very few manufactors that would even care about this. But Nick really does, and he has proven to me that ARH is a class act.
    i got to give credit where it is due and its good to see an American company that wont settle for anything less than hard work and customer satisfaction. The Viper community is lucky to have a company like this. if you have another car that needs headers-look to these guys at ARH.
    thank you Nick for taking time to make things right and you have my respect for doing so.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2011
  29. FLATOUT

    FLATOUT Viper Owner

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    Great news, I ran AR Headers on my old Z06 and they were perfect. Glad to see Nick stick by his stuff as he has done in the past.

    Andy
     
  30. kwittmer

    kwittmer Enthusiast

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    May 9, 2011
    Hey guys,

    Let me first off say that I have nothing but great things, to say about ARH and Nick. In 2010 I ran a Viper Comp Coupe in SCCA World-Challenge GT with Dodge Motorsports and Woodhouse performance. We had that car equipped with ARH and not only did we never have a failing part (including a heavy +20g head on crash), but we also finished 2nd in the championship ahead of ALL Porsche`s and Corvettes. The sound and performance it produced was always a fan favorite, when our engines were revving for those standing starts. We were also able to capture the Long Beach GP and Salt Lake City (VOI 11) victories along with multiple podiums!!

    Also, prior to the World-Challenge season, I was very fortunate to do all the development testing on the Viper ACR-X, which also has ARH. Guys, we are talking about 10-12 days and 1000+ laps of track testing...never once had an issue and believe me, I drove the wheels off that thing. I also believe that in the Viper Cup series, everyone is very satisfied with the product.

    In addition to my satisfaction with Nick and ARH, I recently equipped my 2010 Jeep SRT8 with a set of ARH w/ high flow cats. The fine people at Borla exhausts also helped me out with the best fitting cat back system. As a pro race driver, I am a true believer in this product and I would highly recommend it to anyone.

    Regards,

    Kuno Wittmer
    Dodge Motorsports Factory Driver
     

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