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Gen 4 FULL Belanger set up. Opinions?

Discussion in 'SRT10 and SRT10 Coupe Discussions' started by VIPER GTSR 91, Jan 26, 2011.

  1. VIPER GTSR 91

    VIPER GTSR 91 Viper Owner

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    Hey Jon, I watched that TEST DRIVE several times (re-runs) and Jimmy really embarassed himself in Johnnie O's C6R. Got a kick out of that. He did ok though in the 99 Gainsco car at Daytona yesterday. Yes, my Oreca 91 clone was extremely loud and fast. I even tried to get Beretta to drive it years ago prior to a Petit Road Atlanta event he was in but had no time plus legal track issues. He did get a big kick of his clone though. Thanks for the call. MK
     
  2. Swanny

    Swanny Viper Owner

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    I have this exact setup and love it. Only 1,200 miles on it so far but no issues. Low tone and loud, but not obnoxious unless you get into it. Still get the decel pop but it's rare.
     
  3. VIPER GTSR 91

    VIPER GTSR 91 Viper Owner

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    Exactly what I was hopeing to hear. Many thanks.
     
  4. Viper X

    Viper X VCA Member - South VCA Member

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    I've found it to be too loud, too much drone.

    IMHO, put a set of Corsa track mufflers behind it and it will not drone, will make more power and sound better too.
     
  5. jpa99acr

    jpa99acr Enthusiast

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    and that's a good thing? no thanks, I'll take the louder ones.... :D
     
  6. TrackAire

    TrackAire Viper Owner

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    What the heck are you talking about??? Really Jon, I understand you sell the Belanger headers but to say that the ACRX headers have to have a Mopar PCM to work?...what? I have the ACRX headers on my 2009, over 3000 miles on the clock with no cels or check engine lights, ever. Even when driving the car in 6th gear for hundreds of miles at hiway legal speeds no check engine light. Drove the car out to VOI11 from the Bay Area and back, so uneventful it made me wonder why these headers don't come from the factory. I bought my Mopar PCM from you, but have yet to install it. I kind of like the decel pop, but will probably install it on for the extra rpms.

    The reality is the ACRX header has much better placement of the O2 sensors and they just plain work better because of the placment. Probably why the occurance of check engine lights on the ACRX tends to be less than the Belangers.

    They do not drone at hiway speeds like my stock headers did...the system makes driving at 65 to 75 mph much more pleasant. Also, even though no headers are California smog legal, I retested my car after the install with the single cat and stock muffler and the ACRX headers were withing 1% of the stock readings....passed with flying colors on the sniffer test.

    They do not sound tinny either, I'll put up the sound of my car with stock mufflers to anybodies system...it kicks ass. Watch the youtube video of the Bad Boyzz Garage sound bites. Once you bend the metal, weld it to other pieces and then connect it to mounts and hangers, that theory of stainless sounding tinny and steel sounding "DEEP" goes into the crapper. Maybe if you were to compare two straight tubes that are the same thickness and gauge, but really, I don't know of any exhausts systems like that. Last I heard, Z06's, Ferraris, Lambos, etc don't sound tinny to me....none of them use archaic aluminized steel from what I've seen.

    I don't know what heat you're talking about in the footwell area either. My stock system actually felt a little hotter (maybe the larger cats radiated more heat??) but the system does not run hot in street driving, cruising, spirited driving, etc. I've seen track cars with Belangers boil and melt stuff, all systems have to be installed and the brakelines, vacuum lines, etc need to be protected if you're going to be going all out on track days for 20 minute sessions.

    How about any ACRX header owners voice up and complain about the sound if they don't like it??....so far I haven't heard anybody complain (Mr Pemberton seems to really like his sound and so do others that have heard it). I would trust Bill's opinion as a non biased observer, he sells both brands, right???

    The ACRX header makes more power, period, not just up high but across the board. Is it enough power that you won't need a facelift in the next 6 months, no, but more power is more power. Facts are facts, if I see B.S. on good products, I'll stand up for the correct facts.

    The Belangers are very good headers and nobody will be sorry if they buy them. But, to so say and talk crap about another very good quality header is not fair, especially when putting out mis-information.

    Jon, if you need me to look up pictures of Belangers that were removed after 3 to 4 years on the car so people can see what the look like (even though there were "coated" something most the ACRX headers don't get), I'm sure I can find some pics. Trust me, there is no comparison to stainless steel for longevity and survival from the elements. Getting more power, better sound, no cel's and a lower cost is just a happy plus.

    Cheers,
    George
     
  7. BAD BOYZZ GARAGE

    BAD BOYZZ GARAGE Enthusiast

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    It always amazes me to hear comments from a Vendor who seems to speak with authority on the ACRX header program. I did not remember seeing him sitting in the Boardroom as we Power Brokered this project to Chrysler's team (SRT, Mopar Performance, Arrow Racing-Saleen-Powertech). Chrysler demanded quality, power & performance first, along with the abilty to grow with the evolution of the Generation 4 Viper V10.

    This thread was great with all the VCA members giving honest opinions on Belanger's. I too have run Belanger's & have much respect for Lou & his product.

    Sell on your stengths!

    BAD BOYZZ GARAGE, INC.
    Toddy

    =DISTRIBUTORS OF POWER=:usa:
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2011
  8. redtanrt10

    redtanrt10 Viper Owner

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    Shooter, the guy with the stock 09 ACR has the strongest one ever built or something was wrong on the HP reading. Headers, cats and exhaust will yield 40+ HP, ECU another 5-10. I've been to 3 seperate dyno days at DC, watched the numbers on 10 stock GEN IV's and 5-6 with headers, etc. On his dyno, stock IV's run 520-535HP, Headers/exhaust go 570-575HP.
     
  9. Smokin' 2

    Smokin' 2 Viper Owner

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    Shooter,

    I believe you are recalling my '09 last April. I have pulled the car on 4 different dynos. The numbers varied from 557 to 589 HP on similar temp/alt/humidity days. I have no 'before headers' pull to know. I have seen several ACR-X header pulls where total power below the line across the rpm range was higher than a Bel car on the same dyno, same day. They were within 10 HP/TQ of each other across the band. That was with 0 smoothing set on the dyno.

    I have not seen another car pull as low as 557 with the setup. I have heard the theory from a prominent tech in Texas (Not H*********Y) that the Bel causes the Mopar pcm to pull timing as a result of resonance in the header WHEN ON A DYNO BUT POSSIBLY NOT ON THE STREET. I do NOT claim this myself and would be interested to hear feedback on it from those with more knowledge than myself. I admit that my physics training is heavy on optics and I only took one resonance course as an undergrad. People with practical experience will have more valuable opinions. Results from other shops do not necessarily support this theory.

    I am happy with my setup and think based on what happens on the track I have more than 10 HP/TQ on a stock Gen IV with the Belangers. I pull on other Gen 4s coming out of corners and on straight aways. I do NOT know about variances on when throttle is applied since no telemetry is available to compare.

    I think someone would be happy with either setup. I have been happy with mine other than it dynoing lower than I would expect on a few occasions given other's results with the same setup. My 2 cents.
     
  10. VicTxV10

    VicTxV10 Viper Owner

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    I saw this same thing at the 2009 Viper Round Up in Austin. A guy from Houston had bone stock Viper Blue coupe put down something like 560hp. 20 minutes later, 2008 ACR with full Belanger put down 580. I think some Gen4 engines are better built..or something. 20HP for $4000?:dunno:
     
  11. JonB

    JonB Viper Owner

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    Poster MK was asking specific questions / opinions about the Belanger Full meal deal.

    Fact is, the ACR-X is a "SPEC" racer, that requires the X-header, and requires the MoPar PCM. A street car does not 'require' the expensive PCM.

    We do also offer the American Racing -X headers. We have sold ACR-X American Racing headers, to informed buyers, for track-only cars. NO PROBLEM. They are a good race car option and saves money....

    Literally thousands of owners, me included, like the lower heat of the Belangers, lower for 2 reasons: Alumanized steel runs a lot cooler than stainless BEFORE it is coated....and the Belangers still include Jet-Hot coating. If you dont spill fluids on it, or chip or ding it, the coating stays nice for many, many years.

    I dont believe the extra single-digit HP gains that are claimed are the better option to put this race-car header on a street-car, vs the Belangers. My opinuion. I was at the debut of the -X at Laguna, and it had Belangers on it. As does VooDoo car prototype. I was disappointed that Belanger did not 'power-broker' a package to Dodge for the -X.

    'Power-brokering' the Cost-Benefit ratios applies on the manufacturing side, especially in a spec car. Heck, if Dodge had said "Edelbrock" is the Spec header that all must use, we would have guys wanting that one. Thankfully they did not! American Racing stepped up, and got the nod. THANKS to them for helping Dodge with the -X!

    If you have a stripped-down or dedicated track car, like the ACR-X, I recommend the ACR-X ARE Gen 4 header, to save money and have the bonus of a redline powerband at +2~+5HP. But only a Tommy Archer, or a Kuno Wittmer or an advanced racer will likley realize any lap-time benefit at WOT Redline in a 30-minute race. Motor is off-redline 80%+ of the time, even in a race.

    When Bill P blew past me at Miller in October, I liked the sound of his car at full song. {Anything sounds better than stock, right?) My opinion stands, some will vary. For 17+ years I just want owners to be informed....
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2011
  12. JonB

    JonB Viper Owner

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    EXACTLY ! Extensive Feedback from Mclaren, Arrow, SRT, and several others would say that Shooter's example/claim is an amomaly.
     
  13. Viper X

    Viper X VCA Member - South VCA Member

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    redtanrt10 and I have done several dyno days together and I've done a few more. His comments are right on.

    Generally, the Gen IV car with headers, either American Racing or Blanger will make 40+ rwhp over stock.

    My own 09 ACR made 520 rwhp / 505 rwtq when new and bone stock on DC's dyno. After Belangers, Corsa tracks, cat delete, ported intake, Mopar controller and K&N air filter, the car makes 583 rwhp / 568 rwtq on DC's dyno.

    You can really feel the increase in torque at the track and on the street. I've had no problem hanging with the ACRX cars in a straight line at the track. In the twisty sections, their sticky Michelin tires make a big difference over my usual DOT Hoosier R6's.

    Dan
     
  14. Bill Pemberton Woodhouse

    Bill Pemberton Woodhouse VCA Member - West VCA Member

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    "I too have run Belangers and have much respect for Lou and his product." To me that says it all, as well as making me respect Toddy even more for his composure and courtesy.

    The facts about this entire situation is there are not two guys out there doing Headers I like more than Toddy and Lou. Both are highly respected at Dodge and both have worked with SRT over the years. The end result is both systems may have their benefits, but each is a superior product. Mark J. runs Belangers, and I run a Bad Boyzz Garage ACR-X header ( I have run Belangers in the past ). Heck , I am running the stock exhaust on my car and I love the way it sounds. I must be talking out of both sides of my mouth, but Jorgensen's Belanger system with a Corsa catback is sweet sounding too.

    This is a win win situation for you buyers and since a ton of guys are doing PCMs, regardless of the systems ,not sure that really matters to most. I have not had one on mine ,but got one ordered at present.

    Have to admit that the stock exhaust hooked up to the BB Garage is great on the highway ( drove all the way back from Salt Lake City to Kneebrasky ) and it saved me some bucks not needing to get a catback system too.

    Either way we sell both with confidence and both guys are class acts, with plenty of friends in Detroit.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2011
  15. shooter_t1

    shooter_t1 Has Left the Room!

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    Mike,
    that's what I remembered. Eric's ACR stock put down 4 more hp then my 556 stock.:). I also remember the resonance and knock sensor conversation.

    I'll see what happens when I put the ACRX headers on with my Corsa.
     
  16. shooter_t1

    shooter_t1 Has Left the Room!

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    Wasn't a "claim", it was what I, and about 40 others saw. Normally I wouldn't have cared cause Dyno #'s are not the cure all, end all. BUT, same Dyno, same day, and Mike's car wasn't the only one with the setup we are talking about that only showed a 10-15 hp gain.

    I am not trying to start a war or doubt anyone, I just want a good return on my money:)
     
  17. BAD BOYZZ GARAGE

    BAD BOYZZ GARAGE Enthusiast

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    Here we go again with your spin on the words of other's & a 180 degree about face that now you approve of the ACRX =BAD BOYZZ SERIES= Headers. Since the release of these headers you have been posting against their success & now you say your promoting sales?

    *Welcome to the no spin zone. First of all in early 2010' Chrysler wanted to take their exhaust system to the next level ( high quality, power & performance), since there was a possibility that the ACRX might be their last chance to flex Viper's muscle on the track, with the production plant set to close by years end.

    *At BBG we do not knock or critize other header manufactures such as Edlebrock because at that time they were innovators and developed a good Gen 1 header for the Viper Nation. I'm sure when Vic reads this thread he will not appreciate that comment. We give them props for building their system (Choices).

    *In my career as a factory rep for the largest CNC Manufacturer in Italy, we refer to Power Brokering as an organized presentation with Top Team Members, presenting & demonstrating our very best technology! See in the world we live in quality always shines first, then cost becomes relevant. At BBG our company motto is "Quality First" not the "Cheapest Prices in Town", no compromising.

    *American Racing Headers is a highly respected company in the Industry, using only the best U.S. 304 stainless steel and to say that their systems only live on the track is misleading to the Viper Nation, but we will take that as a compliment. The Viper is a high performance no non-sense vehicle that requires race inspired technology to compliment it's performance. (Street-Race-Tech / SRT). ARH with their high flow metal cats are absoluetly 100% designed to run on the street!

    *As far as sound goes, in our opinion OEM Sounds Pretty Damm Good Dude!! YouTube - BAD BOYZZ GARAGE ACR-X Track Headers

    BAD BOYZZ GARAGE. INC.
    Toddy

    =DISTRIBUTORS OF POWER=:usa:
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2011
  18. JonB

    JonB Viper Owner

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    'No Spin Zone' slogan is already taken.

    Since this thread was originally about Belanger, and others interjected ARH, I stated my opinion as asked. It has not spun, or varied. I agree with SRT for the reasons they chose the ARH for the ACR-X. Like them, I agree, and have sold ARH for track-cars. Like several club vendors here, we offer more than 1 product to meet various needs. I prefer Belangers for primary-street cars. So do some SRT folks. I can and do recommend and sell ARH as I have for track use, or value-savings driven motives.

    Had Lou Belanger or Vic Edelbrock (for example) 'power brokered' a Gen 4 product or proposal to SRT, (neither did) and had either won, then some owners would be swayed by that hypothetical ACR-X designation. And thankfully Nick at ARH stepped up and provides that option. This is why "Mobil One" has been printed on Viper oilcaps since 1996. NO PROBLEM! Good for ARH.

    And yet the pros and cons of each product (even Mobil One) would still have to stand scrutiny with some owners and vendors, like me. There is no product that is deemed "best for all" at play here. Pros and Cons, features and benefits, are not "spin", but valid factors to help owners make a product decision. Mobil One vs Castrol vs Penzoil come to mind.

    The King of Spin ? Certainly not me. I've been spewing / sharing facts and comparisons to owners since 1993. It is well known that I frequently talk owners OUT of buying a product at all, if they dont have realistic expectations of the item. I dont really care or prefer what an owner might purchase here, but I do want them to make an informed decision if and when they do.

    Track Instructor Blessing: "Go, my students, and Spin No More."
     
  19. mbccenter

    mbccenter Viper Owner

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    I have owned them all and produce M&M Performance headers for the Viper. All of the above manufactures produce a high quality product. Each one has an advantage over another in one area or two. Their is a difference in sound between stainless and steel. That is all going to be personal on which one sounds better. One does move more than another. You can't go wrong with any of the three:)
     
  20. VIPER PIT

    VIPER PIT Viper Owner

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    How is the heat from this set up? Do you have to put on extra heat shields to keep from burning stuff or boiling fluids? My brother doesn't have enough miles on his yet to know.
     
  21. doctorbob

    doctorbob VCA Member - UT/AZ VCA Member

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    It a always interests me how one vendor always drops into these discussions and cannot respect contrary opinions without cheap shots. I think members of the viper nation should look into their particular needs and have the vendors present the respective products with documented pros and cons. Woodhouse installed my Belanger system with the PCM( the first one on the market though Dodge with thanks to Chris Marshall) and personally I did not like it. I have nothing but respect for the Woodhouse team but it was not for me. Bill and Mark are great resources and will give you their honest and frank opinions.
     
  22. Dan Cragin

    Dan Cragin Enthusiast

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    We have installed and tested both systems and both give good hp and torque gains. We are interested testing the new M an M Gen 4 headers as well.

    A little background here, the Belanger system is a tri-y header that merges 3 pipes and 2 pipes separately into common collector, this is a common design used for trucks and RV's as they tend to make good low end torque. Belanger's design is unique as it uses collector "pickles" to align flow and create velocity. It’s a good header for the low rpm Viper engine. Its mild steel design does not transfer as much heat as stainless so it runs cooler. It is ceramic coated inside and out so the header does not rust. It has been used on Viper engines for numerous years and tends to work best on stock Gen 1 2 and 3 engines.

    On the gen 4 engines it can be used as a complete system, mated to the stock mufflers or Corsa system. The complete system tends to be too loud for most, and it makes the best power with the complete Belanger system or Corsa.

    This header does not work as well as a Merge 5 into 1 header on modified Gen 1-2-3 engines (cam and heads). It tends to make less peak power on the new Gen 4 engine as this engine has a higher rpm limit.

    Extreme caution must be used when routing the rear 02 sensors or the wiring will short out over time. This header will set a Cel without the Mopar controller and is not emissions legal

    The American Racing headers for the Gen 1-2-3 cars and the Gen 4 (AKA Bad Boyz headers) are a 5 into 1 merge stainless design. They do run hotter than mild steel but do not require coating to keep from rusting. They work well on all year models, but really shine on modified engines (heads and cam). When the Gen 4 engine came out we thought a merge header would work better due to the higher rpm of the engine. At that time one of our customers Todd Gomez (now Badboyz garage) took this idea to American racing headers and was able to create a Gen 4 merge header design. The results were a header that makes more power than the tri-y system. It is quieter and less expensive.

    This header does require extreme caution in routing of the rear O2 sensors and will set a Cel with the Mopar controller. It is not certified for emissions. Heat wrap is required for the brake booster hose and the battery cable.

    For those interested we have found a little trick to pick up another 7hp and 30 trq from both of these systems on the Gen 4 (call for details).

    Hope this helps.
     
  23. DPViper

    DPViper Viper Owner

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    I can't wait to hear about the trick!
     
  24. BAD BOYZZ GARAGE

    BAD BOYZZ GARAGE Enthusiast

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    DC Performance brings up some very legitimate points on the variety of header systems avaliable for the Generation 4 Dodge Viper.

    I will speak on our header system to clarify a few key changes we made to the ACRX =BAD BOYZZ SERIES= right from the start. As an installer I personally see similar issues on Gen 3 & 4 Viper's when upgrading to high performance exhaust systems which I felt needed to fixed.

    *Looking at our ACRX Headers pictured below you will see that the O2 sensor bung is placed correctly into the merged collector to monitor all 5 cylinders as the original factory exhaust manifolds do (Very important to Chrysler's Viper engine team).

    *Also looking at our High Flow Metal Cats pictured below, take notice of the way we spec'd the O2 sensor bung to be installed at a specified angle to help eliminate clearance issues (wires making contact) commonly scene in the Gen 3-4 Viper's rocker tunnel. Utilizing an-after cat finished pipe of 2.5" allows for more O2 sensor clearance & the ability to run Viper's factory high flow mufflers. This combination performs great (HP/Trq).

    *Note that these key changes have also evolved to all ARH Viper Header Systems.

    We've always advocated, recommend and use thermal wrap products on sensitive areas to ensure a solid professional install, no matter which is your header of choice. These procedures should be common practice in our opinion.

    The ACRX Header makes Solid HP & Trq and now gives us Viper owners the Stainless Steel option like the Porsche & Ferrari Boyz run!


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    BAD BOYZZ GARAGE, INC.
    Toddy

    =DISTRIBUTORS OF POWER= :usa:
     
  25. VicTxV10

    VicTxV10 Viper Owner

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    Man, those are works of art!!
     
  26. FLATOUT

    FLATOUT Viper Owner

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    Owned American Racing for years on multiple vehicles and they hold up better than anything!
     
  27. Dan Cragin

    Dan Cragin Enthusiast

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    A note on the rear O2 sensors on Gen 3-4 headers. The original downstream O2 sensors where not designed to be encapsulated in the side panels. There are several tips to ensure sensor life especially if you track your car. First off the rear sensor wiring needs to be wrapped in a heat reflective covering (like DEI heat wrap). The wrap must extend down to the sensor itself. The factory heat shield should be trimmed to keep the sensor wires from rubbing on the insulation and shorting out. On race applications we mount the rear sensors
    upstream of the cats (or no cats) to keep the sensors out of the panels.
     
  28. J&R3xV10

    J&R3xV10 Enthusiast

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    wow I am more confused than ever. I have been debating which route I want to take on my car for more than a year. One thing that stands out to me is "LOUD" thats what I want! I am not a dyno person. I don't give a rats @@s what a printout says about my car I want to enjoy how it drives. When someone asks me "how much hp does that have?" I say "alot". of course a little added power is never a bad thing;)

    I have Borla cat-back on my 94 because it produced the best low rumble loud sound available at the time. I want the same sort of sound on my 08, low-loud-rumble.

    So from everything I have read in this thread it sounds like belangers is the way to go. How much of a differance in sound do you get between full set-up vs headers to stock:dunno: I hate the idea of driving around with a CEL on but my favorite part of the exhaust is hearing the decel backfiring.

    I heard Viper X's Belanger headers to Corsa and it sounded good and "racey" but not loud enough and not enough "burble" to me. I like that old muscle car sound that makes the dishes in the kitchen shake when you pull into the garage:2tu:

    FWIW I ran my 05 Ram SRT with NO Exhaust just headers and I could have gone louder:rolaugh:
     
  29. CCBrian

    CCBrian Enthusiast

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    I believe the ACR-X header is louder. George (Track-aire) on here has them and it is louder than my ACR with Belanger's...I have heard them side by side. Both great headers...but ACR-X is cheaper and very well built too. I probably would have gone that route but I have a 08 and when they came out the ACR-X header did not exist yet.
     
  30. J&R3xV10

    J&R3xV10 Enthusiast

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    Having heard them side by side which would you say has a deeper tone??? I am not a fan of the higher pitch of the corsa exhaust.
     

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