Going it Alone to the GA Supreme Court: VCA balks on assistance

RockyTop

Enthusiast
Joined
Dec 11, 2000
Posts
251
Reaction score
0
Location
Roswell, Georgia
I know many on this board have followed my 2.5 year insurance claim saga. Well, on Monday my attorney and I will be filing a petition for certiorari (in laymen's terms, the won't you please consider my case request). As some of you may recall, I had asked that the VCA to consider using its own counsel to file an amicus brief with the Supreme Court. For laymen, that's a third-party's brief supporting some or all aspects of my side of the case and is an attempt by an outsider who really does have a "dog in the hunt" to urge the court to make law that favors its position. The cost of such a brief would probably not exceed $3,000.

After some effort I was able to speak with Joe Houss who is as friendly and professional as can be and he was concerned, among other things, that if the club did it in my case, they'd have to do it in everyone's. My view differs from Joe's in that this is an opportunity to change what is about to be law in Georgia and, in time, its neighboring states of FL, TN, NC, SC, and AL. Nevertheless Joe said he'd ask Fiona, but I never heard back from him notwithstanding an e-mail inquiring about the status of his inquiry. Like all of us, our VCA officers have day jobs and I understand that my little case out here in the boonies just isn't as high on the priority list as the next cruise-in or tech session. ;) O.K., maybe I am a little bummed.

I naively thought that if Congress, for example, were about to pass a law that would have a material and detrimental effect on the insurability of our just-for-fun track events, the club would endeavor at relatively modest expense to preserve this incredibly enjoyable vehicle ownership experience. I realize I was wrong.

In all truth, this affects the GA club the most directly, but the cost of the brief, which we have in our coffers, would have wiped out our surplus used for dinners and, God forbid, track tomfoolery. Nevertheless, Pete Mansolillo offered to consider this as a local club expense, but I refused. I could not in good faith deprive my fellow GA club members of all those good Italian food dinners.

The national club has generously offered more than $20,000 for our upcoming rendezvous, which will include activities at speed on the RoadAlanta track. I would not, however, count on having your accident covered should you come into contact with the substantial amounts of Armco there ! The chilling effect of this ruling on participation in the rendezvous remains to be seen. I hope it's none !

Undaunted, on the filing deadline of this Monday, March 10th, I am asking the GA Supreme Court's consideration of this matter. I hope, for all our sakes, they agree. As it stands now, this is bad law. Seriously, I am not bitter as I love our club and virtually all in it (except maybe Hoosier Daddy who on street tires schooled many of us at VIR last summer). I'm just tired and will be glad after these long 2.5 years to have this issue behind me one way or another. My pockets just feel lighter now. I would be remiss if I did not extend my special thanks for the moral support of my fellow Viper drivers Ryan Rouleau, Pete Mansolillo, Tony Armour, et. al.

In closing, I leave you with what I think some here may enjoy. These are some of the opening lines of our petition drafted by yours truly):

"The underlying subject matter of this case involved the unfortunate damage that arises when one combines a very fast Dodge Viper with driver error and a touchy air bag sensor. That damage, however, is easily and promptly reparable compared to the precedential damage that will result if the Court of Appeals'; even faster and equally erroneous review of the evidence at trial is left to alter, indeed emasculate, the "any evidence"; standard of review established and still followed by this Court in cases involving the Court of Appeals' denial of a motion for directed verdict. In its place the Court of Appeals seeks to substitute the unpredictable and precedentially hostile approach of applying the appellate panel's own interpretation and weighing of the evidence in place of that duty already performed by a properly selected jury."
 

ryan 94RT

Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 6, 2002
Posts
100
Reaction score
0
Location
SMYRNA GA
Re: Going it Alone to the GA Supreme Court: VCA balks on assistance

We are all with ya rocky. I wish you the best. THis is like the movie, is this rocky 3? I think you beat clubber lang in this one so you will be just fine.LOL

see ya

ryan
 

Hoosier Daddy

Enthusiast
Joined
Feb 3, 2002
Posts
1,357
Reaction score
0
Location
upstate, NY
Re: Going it Alone to the GA Supreme Court: VCA balks on assistance

Good Luck Mr. Hoarde. The driving event format as we believe to know it is at stake. I believe you schooled me when I put my Hoosiers on for the last session at VIR and fell short by 1 second! Till we meet again Godspeed and let me have a second chance at you before you retire!!
 

Achilles99

Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 1, 2002
Posts
1,196
Reaction score
0
Location
Atlanta, GA
Re: Going it Alone to the GA Supreme Court: VCA balks on assistance

I am definitely sorry to hear about this, too. I would be in support of contributing to a voluntary "fund" to help you prevent this law from going into the books in GA. If it passes, I don't think anyone would want to bring their Viper to Road Atlanta for fear of damage!

If you set up a Paypal account to help fund the "Keep my Viper covered on the track" movement, I think a lot of fellow Viper owners would contribute. Especially since you are doing a service for all who would consider tracking their vehicle!
 

RedGTS

Enthusiast
Joined
Apr 15, 2002
Posts
1,141
Reaction score
0
Location
Tennessee
Re: Going it Alone to the GA Supreme Court: VCA balks on assistance

RockyTop, I sincerely mean no offense, but language like that set forth in your post will diminish your chances of success. A good brief is direct and understandable. Its sentences are not unnecessarily long or convoluted. It does not read as though the writer was trying to impress someone with grandiose phrases rather than the facts and the law. In other words, it is the opposite of what you wrote. What you wrote might impress a layman or even an unskilled attorney if they thought the reason it is so garbled is because it contains secret, important legalese, but an appellate court will likely view it as what it is--garbled and grandiose.

On another point, I would avoid referring to my Viper as much as possible, and I darn sure would not call it a "very fast Dodge Viper." Your case doesn't hinge on what kind of car you were driving, does it? While this should not make a difference as a technical matter, the practical reality is that the clerks and Judges reading your brief may create a mental image of a spoiled, rich guy zooming around in his exotic sportscar. It is doubtful that any of the clerks or Judges have a similar car, and most could not afford one. Courts are not particularly sympathetic toward insurance companies, but why say anything that might make the court less sympathetic toward you?

Again, I wish you well and really hope you win, and I offer this advice solely for that reason. Good luck.
 

SoCal Rebell

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 3, 2000
Posts
3,035
Reaction score
0
Location
Mission Hills, Ca USA
Re: Going it Alone to the GA Supreme Court: VCA balks on assistance

Sorry to hear it but what did you expect. VCA is interested in taking your $100 a year and sending you 4 mags in exchange. I had the same experience with "The Freedom of Speech Coalition" when I asked for help in my free speech trial. After giving them 10s of thousands of dollars in donations they would not return my call, everyone's your friend when you hand over the cash but god forbid you should actually need their services, it's BS.
 

1TONY1

Enthusiast
Joined
Dec 19, 2001
Posts
5,661
Reaction score
0
Location
Dalton Ga. (Chatt. Tn.)
Re: Going it Alone to the GA Supreme Court: VCA balks on assistance

Good luck Rocky. If this is delayed, then let us know and then maybe on behalf of the VCA we can do what Achilles said. I feel like the VCA dropped the ball here. I thought Joe Houss was in charge, maybe I should have e-mailed Fionna instead. While she is a great person I didn't know it was her responsibility to make these decisions. This is the first case like this I have heard of and that is why the VCA should have stepped up to the plate. Then the next guys attorney could reference your case if you prevail so there would be no need for a "next time for the next guy". If you lost then there is the VCA's reason for not doing it again. I also sent Joe an e-mail (shown below) and I never got a response. I don't care, "day job or not" no one is forcing them to hold their officer positions and as a member I expected a response. I hope a few years down the road we can't say .... I told you so.



e-mail to Joe Houss
2/20/2003
Just wanted to add my support for Rocky Horde. I have posted the link for you to look at in case you have not seen it. I would love to see him get this decision reversed back to the original as it should be. The importance of this to all of us, not only in Georgia but nation wide is huge. If nothing changes on this ruling the insurance companies will seize this opportunity to disallow more and more track accidents. It is my understanding that they have their own networks and resources to share this type of info. If the VCA can help in anyway it will be for the good of all the Viper community. We will even be having events at the very same track during the S.E. zone rendezvous.
Thanks, Tony Armour VCA# 14903
 

garolittle

Enthusiast
Joined
Jan 15, 2001
Posts
2,240
Reaction score
0
Location
Augusta, GA
Re: Going it Alone to the GA Supreme Court: VCA balks on assistance

Go Rocky! LET'S GET READY TO RUMBLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
 

Vic

VCA Venom Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2000
Posts
6,762
Reaction score
0
Re: Going it Alone to the GA Supreme Court: VCA balks on assistance

If the VCA doesn't step up to the plate and help fight the good fight, then it won't be long before the insurance companies in all states get wind of it, and then none of us will be covered for accidental car damage in ANY driving schools, (how bout Viper Days?)

And if my car isn't covered, then I can't afford to ball it up and take the loss. Which means that if I want to go on track, I will have to come with something that I can afford to lose, like an old C4 Vette, or something simular.
 
OP
OP
R

RockyTop

Enthusiast
Joined
Dec 11, 2000
Posts
251
Reaction score
0
Location
Roswell, Georgia
Re: Going it Alone to the GA Supreme Court: VCA balks on assistance

Red GTS, thank you for your advice. I chopped it out of the petiton. you are right.

To the others who posted, thank you for your support and well wishes. I do not seek monetary help for my part of the case. Though I am very under-employed right now, I'll get by. What I was hoping to get was the Umpfh (sp. ?) created by having the national club behind me (at least in the briefs before the court). Oh well, I'll let folks know if I have any luck getting in front of the Supremes.
 

Steve-Indy

VCA Venom Member
Venom Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2000
Posts
8,522
Reaction score
164
Location
Zionsville,IN. USA
Re: Going it Alone to the GA Supreme Court: VCA balks on assistance

Too bad that the E-mail address for " RockyTop" doesn't work:

" The message cannot be delivered to the following address. ---

[email protected] Mailbox unknown or not accepting mail.
550 No such recipient "

...might have had a couple of thoughts for him.
 

slaughterj

Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 6, 2001
Posts
5,266
Reaction score
0
Re: Going it Alone to the GA Supreme Court: VCA balks on assistance

If the VCA doesn't step up to the plate and help fight the good fight, then it won't be long before the insurance companies in all states get wind of it, and then none of us will be covered for accidental car damage in ANY driving schools, (how bout Viper Days?)

And if my car isn't covered, then I can't afford to ball it up and take the loss. Which means that if I want to go on track, I will have to come with something that I can afford to lose, like an old C4 Vette, or something simular.

Exactly.
 

Viperrick

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 8, 2000
Posts
469
Reaction score
0
Location
Illinois, USA
Our local club had a recent general membership meeting and the insurance issue was brought up. The Illinois region has been doing road racing track events since 95 so we have many members who will be effected. However, I think that since many Vipers have been balled up in the past, and then their owners looked for their insurance companies to bail them out (replace the car), than what could we expect. Insurance is to cover you for an incident which happens which could not be avoided or maybe out of your control. Taking a car to a race track is avoidable and you the owner make the decision to put your car at risk. There are insurance companies who will write a policy for your race car (or your street car which you intend to use as a race car). It's not cheap but it is available.

Regarding the Rendezvous, please note that the VCA is not sponsoring a road racing event at Road Atlanta. The Zone Rendezvous is centered around an Autocross event which is normally held in a parking lot or large expanse of asphalt similar to a parking lot. The reason we do this is because it is the safest (although not fool proof) competitive driving event we know of. There will be a reception on Friday evening and an awards banquet on Saturday night. We would like to see a car show or cruise associated with the event but I do not remember a road racing event ever being a part of the Zone Rendezvous. Should a group of attendees choose to rent the Road Atlanta facility on their own, prior to the scheduled Zone Rendezvous, than they are welcomed to do so. But they will have to obtain their own event insurance policy and cover all associated costs.

I am sure that Joe looked into the matter that RockyTop referanced. Joe is very thourough. However, I can tell you that the VCA does not have on retainer, a law firm representing them. The action that RockyTop is bringing to light is one that anyone who is interested in track type activities should be aware of. It may effect you or those you know. But to say that the VCA should "step up to the plate" with financial assistance, is not a decision that the officers can or should make. This is not an organizational issue but a private one. We can look to see if other car clubs might be planning a responce.
 

1TONY1

Enthusiast
Joined
Dec 19, 2001
Posts
5,661
Reaction score
0
Location
Dalton Ga. (Chatt. Tn.)
Rick, I RESPECTFULLY disagree with your first and last paragraph. Your first paragraph is not true in many (maybe most) cases, because they do and have covered many incidents. That may be changing. The last paragraph depends on a persons personal opinion and many on here feel like there are enough of us that track our cars....we thought "our" club should have helped. Did any of the officers poll their constituents ? Maybe we need to have page on here to do a poll (VCA members only)like some sites have. Did Joe really "check with Fionna" ? How do I say it nicely.....why would he need to check with her ?

As far as the Road Atlanta event after the rendezvous.....maybe Pete will clarify. I guess everyone needs to realize this isn't a VCA national track day. You will be there "on your on". I think we will have a big crowd of Vipers there. It is a common gathering of Viper guys.
 
Joined
Oct 2, 2000
Posts
2,381
Reaction score
0
Location
Saratoga,CA
There are many clubs and organizations renting tracks for "Driving Schools" or as we call them open track events.

These are not put on by recognized driving schools with formal instruction and dedicated instructors.

These are drive at your own risk open track events.

Some Insurance companies have covered loss under the "Driving School" claim. It seems that they may be getting smarter.

Why would the typical insured want to share the risk(premiums) for those who chose to play on race tracks?

Sorry, This is not a VCA issue, it is an individual insurance issue. It would be nice if the VCA could assist in locating an insurance company to write special coverage for track events. And who is the VCA? You! So you members who want to be insured at track events contact insurance companies and get a track policy.
 

pdmracing

Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 15, 2000
Posts
1,375
Reaction score
0
Location
Atlanta Ga
First off , the Zone Rendevous is will be held at Road Atlanta. We have schedualed it to be on the same weekend as a Panoz track day. Panoz has allowed usts to block off some or all of the spots if we need, so our members have the option of driving Road Atlanta. The GA VCA is NOT paying for the track day.

I have posted many times that there is on track riders available for those who's insurance companies will not cover track events. It seems no one is reading the prior posts , Parish insurance as well as other will cover your car. Look up rockies last post to see the link that I posted.

I have to disagree with some of the posts that why should the average Insured pay for our track fun? the same question could be why should I pay for your teenage kids, your cellphone using suv owner, the make up artist on the freeway, the illegal alien driving some POS van? It's insurance thats why. If your policy states that it will cover a non timed event, than they should pay up. The PCA has been having on track driving events for 30 years & I cannot recall a single incident that the insurance hasnt covered.

Rocky's case is about a company that said they would cover an event, & they didnt. The result affects all car clubs & all states not just the VCA.

I think this is a members issue not necasarily the Managements issue. We need to mobilize & do what it takes. If this were the motorcycle community , this would be squashed allready.

Rocky, set up an account & lets use the power of our numbers & the internet & get the donations flowing.
Pete

By the way the spell check is checking but its not coming out on my post , what am I doing wrong?
 

Janni

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 2, 2000
Posts
3,029
Reaction score
5
Location
Raleigh, NC, USA
Pete,
I have to agree with you here - this is an item that effects Viper OWNERS, not just Rocky. State Supreme Courts only take cases that are MATTERS OF LAW - not individual claims issues. This will be a precedent setting case and could have implications for anyone that does Driver's Ed type events. I agree that Rocky's carrier said that they would cover and then did not fulfill an agreement.

I am not a particularly competitive person so my ViperDays experiences have pretty much been about learning to drive better, but I feel strongly that folks need to learn the limits of their cars with a good instructor in a safe environment.

Of all the Vipers totalled, my guess is that a SMALL fraction of them are done at track days - and a far larger percent are done by folks who underestimate the torque and break the rear end loose on the street (see wcollera's recent post and a SLEW of other folks that have posted that the snake bit them....) We don't hear about folks totalling their cars that have participated in ViperDays and other DE events, because they are better equipped to handle the car on the street.

I have had an on track incident and I have not submitted it to my insurance - it was minor. The track experience has made me a much better driver - smoother, looking ahead and not getting into trouble, etc.

I also agree that insurance companies routinely pay for folks crashing becasue they fell asleep at the wheel, or they were driving too fast for conditions, or they were talking on the phone, shaving, reading, putting on makeup, brusing their teeth, etc. That's why they have insurance. And certainly no one could agrue that these activities were in pursuit of becoming a better driver.......

Henry and I were coming back from Philly late one night - it was raining / freezing raining. We were coming back onto 95 from 495 or some other outer loop. As we were bearing left around on the on ramp, we were in the left of 2 lanes. A person in a car came and passed us on the right, cut in front of us and immediately slowed down (typical *****). In order to avoid hitting the brakes on a potentially icy surface, Henry moved to the right hand lane. In doing so had to give more steering input to continue on the on ramp. When he did the back end started to come around. I looked over and watched his hands drop down on the steering wheel, make the correction, wait and bring it back on in. And I didn't freak. I said "nice save" and I can attribute that skill directly to track experience. Oh, and this was in our dually - not the Viper - so all our other vehicles are benefitting from the skills learned on the track.

Oh, and one other thing, autocrosses are a timed, competitive event - so don't think you're covered there. Granted, accidents are few and far between, but they can happen.

I wish the VCA would reconsider supporting an action that could have impacts on many members.
 

Joseph Houss

Former VCA National President
VCA Officer
Joined
Jul 19, 2000
Posts
3,330
Reaction score
0
Location
NJ USA
Viper HQ is already researching some of the supplemental policies available for track driving. When we have made ourselves fully knowledgable about the alternatives, we will be glad to give everyone the info.

Stay tuned.
 

Hoosier Daddy

Enthusiast
Joined
Feb 3, 2002
Posts
1,357
Reaction score
0
Location
upstate, NY
Viper HQ is already researching some of the supplemental policies available for track driving. When we have made ourselves fully knowledgable about the alternatives, we will be glad to give everyone the info.

Stay tuned.

Bravo!!!! Thanks for the update. Sometimes silence is the worst enemy.
 

Vic

VCA Venom Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2000
Posts
6,762
Reaction score
0
But to say that the VCA should "step up to the plate" with financial assistance, is not a decision that the officers can or should make.

Well, I certainly did not mean to imply that the VCA pay for Rocky's defense.

And I don't think the VCA is a law firm, nor should they be.

Lastly, this whole discussion has brought the issue of insurance into focus for me, and it shows first, how ignorant I have been about the ins. issue, and secondly, it also has served to make me aware of track rider policies.(Thanks Pete)

For that, this thread is invaluable. While Rocky's experience is tragic, it had served to bring the issue to the front burner, and hopefully we all come out a little wiser.

Good luck, Rocky.
 

Gavin

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 15, 2000
Posts
431
Reaction score
0
Location
Monterey, Ca, USA
Rick, I most respectfully disagree with your statement below

"Insurance is to cover you for an incident which happens which could not be avoided or maybe out of your control. Taking a car to a race track is avoidable and you the owner make the decision to put your car at risk."

Insurance is no more complicated that a rather simple contract between the insurance company and the customer - The insurance company promises coverage in all matters except those specific "exclusions" that have to be clearly stated in said contract.

Unless there is language specific to driving school activity, stated in the exclusions, the car is covered.

Where folks get in trouble, is in interpreting contract language. Frankly , if an insurance policy in any way refers to driving schools, Driving schools at race tracks or localities that are used for racing, timed events (this includes autocrosses)etc., then the chances are the insurance company will contest covering the car if a claim is made.

Insurance is NOT to cover events that could be avoided. Insurance to to cover losses as stated in the policy - no different than any other insurance

Taking a car to an open track, non timed, driving school event is covered unless there is language in the exclusions portion of the policy that states otherwise.

It is the responsibility of every individual to read their own policy and negotiate coverage that meets their particular needs.

We live however in a society the does not, for the most part, believe in "Do the crime, do the Time". Every day we see folks that do everything they can to avoid responsibilty for their actions.
In my book - commit ****** - plead guilty and do the time
Take an uninsured car to an open track event and damage it - don't look for the insurance company, or conversly, if the car is covered at such events - go for it - the insurance company is responsible for knowing such risks exist and excluding them if they so wish, and further, at any time they can make an exclusion for any legal reason.

I believe insurance companies know of our collective activities, they run the numbers and some accept the risk, some don't - this is capitalism at work.

Personally I like the odds of staying "damage free", a lot more on the track than I do on the street. Currently my car has been hit twice while it was parked and in three + years of open track events not a single incident (Paint chips excluded)

Typically 20-30 cars on the track - 2-3 miles in length for the average track - all cars going in the same direction (...most of the time) and we can choose how agressive we want to be etc etc etc.
Nuff said
 

pdmracing

Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 15, 2000
Posts
1,375
Reaction score
0
Location
Atlanta Ga
I agree with gavin, In 17 years of driving track events I have had 1 accident, & that was recently (excluding races of course) & the damage was minor. I was prudent when shopping for insurance & was sure that my co would cover me. They asked me the following questions when I put in my claim: Was the car trailered? did it have DOT tires? was it a timed event? Where is the police report. I told them that it happened on private property & none was needed. I got my claim paid within days. I didnt lie or fudge anything with my claim. In fact I was ready to pay oop & save the hassle but knowing how there could be hidden damage I decided to put the claim in.

Rockies case is simular but Progressive went to lenghts to not pay what the policy said it will pay. The problem with any precident like this is , it will now give all insurance co's a way out, sort of like the product liability issue. Once a ruling is laid down, I am sure this is the tip of the iceburg.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
153,139
Posts
1,681,565
Members
17,640
Latest member
SDViper
Top