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Gosh , are we maybe just so passionate we miss what others see?

Discussion in 'SRT10 and SRT10 Coupe Discussions' started by Bill Pemberton Woodhouse, Jan 17, 2005.

  1. rbarta

    rbarta Enthusiast

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    Wow. Everything seemed so simple to me a month ago. I was going to get a Viper in the spring, 500/525 and convertible and all the planets were in alignment.

    Then the release the C6-Z06, beautiful and 500/475 weighing in 100s of lbs less than the Viper. But no convertible, which I want. What to do, what to do? So I linger on both forums to see what is said about the cars. What do I learn about the cars....not much. What I learn is that people on both forums, who seemed to be very nice pre-C6-Z06 are now filled with hatred and vile comments toward the other car, toward whoever would own the other car, to each other.

    And guess the result...where do you think those owner stereotypes come from...right from the mouths of the owners themselves. And all the owners suffer this (mis)characterization whether to their face or behind their back.

    One thing both forums should admit, they are BOTH nice cars. Now to decide which car to get or whether I want to even be associated with such hatred...over an automobile.
     
  2. drdaveSRT

    drdaveSRT Viper Owner

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    Road test: New Viper vs New ZO6. Otherwise, let's not kill eachother until we have raw data.
    Besides, if the ford GR8 comes out, these conversations and debates would have been pointless.

    DC, please create the new benchmark. That's all we are asking. You owe it to the viper community. Even if it is a special edition of 100 units, you have to beat the ZO6.
    You have no choice.

    Otherwise, we have bigger problems in the world to solve.
    Where's my Dodge Hybrid, Dude? 50 mpg for when I can't drive my srt.
     
  3. Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder

    Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder Viper Owner

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    I think we are missing a few important facts.

    The Viper is a low production hand assembled Exotic Sports Car. The Corvette is a higher volume production Sports car compare typical production numbers 1,500 vs 25,000 per year. Making 25,000 of something vs 1,500 allows for a lot more engineering and R&D investment.

    The Viper is a fantastic car and has great performance to value.

    DC has done a Great Job supporting us the Viper nation. They ask us what we want and do their best to give it to us! Do you think GM has a relationship with Corvette owners? Is there a Corvette COI?

    The Viper SRT10 is fantastic Sports Car, it has the Best Brakes of all Sports cars at any price, well almost any price, on street tires. It handles very well and has massive neck snapping acceleration. And looks Great. DC asked us what we wanted in the next Gen. and gave us, the owners, what we asked them to give us. To some extent GM did surprise me with the Z06 Corvette. I know Lutz is a performance car guy but I did not think he could sell the performance to the other stiff shirts at GM.

    Corvette has introduced a car that they say they are going to build. Saying you are going to do something and doing it are two different things. I know the SRT guys are busy working on the a product that will keep Viper as King of The Hill.

    This serious competition from Corvette will give the SRT team justification for spending $$$$ to increase HP, braking and handling. Timing allows the added HP to be certified at the same time as the emissions for 07. Emission Cert. is very expensive and can not be done for a short run of motors.

    I would like the Coupe to look more like the Comp Coupe but to make major changes to the SRT10 physical frame/body would require new crash certification again $$$$$.

    I do understand the pressure the SRT has to keep Viper as "King of The Hill". If the price Viper MSRP was increased 50,000.00 then these re-Certification cost could be covered. Anyone want to pay more $$$$$. I do not! I would rather support DC/SRT by buying their products, keep the relationship and communication between DC and the owners(the responsibility of the VCA Officers) so they can make vehicles that we want. I love my SRT10's (Viper and Quad Cab).

    Yes I want more power, better brakes, lighter weight, better handling and I am confident all these wishes are being developed by the SRT Team.

    You guys who talk about spins, losing control, crashes, etc. put your cars in the garage and polish them or take a few Performance Driving Schools and learn car control: http://norcal.viperclub.org/event_detail.php?event=1106001337
     
  4. BobK898

    BobK898 Enthusiast

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    Thanks Dad.
     
  5. vipersrt10

    vipersrt10 Enthusiast

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    i never got one "thumbs up" in my Z06, no girls ever said they liked, nor did any guys, it never got anything other that cut-off on the road, things throw at it, and people just dont seem to like vette drivers around here......the opposite it true with the viper, not that i bought either one for attention, but the vette is not worth it, it gets zero respect
     
  6. AG98RT10

    AG98RT10 Viper Owner

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    Exactly what more do you need in order to understand GM's accomplishment with this new Z? Only thing left to see is price, really. No way it can't be faster than a new Viper Coupe that has already been announced to have no more HP and more weight than the roadster. Not to mention the other innovations re frame, dry sump, etc, etc.

    It's almost surely going to cost at least 12-15K less than the new Coupe.

    That pretty much spells: "eating our lunch." To say "wait on the test data, the vehicle's not in production yet" is my definition of whistling past the graveyard. I'd like to see Viper maintain its competitive domination at the street level. That's gone as of now, with nothing being even hinted at from DC to remedy it. I don't want some Crossfire-squatting dog-takeoff to steal market share from the C6 standard models; I don't care about more V10 trucks or hemi-powered station wagons; I want the undisputed King back on his throne.
    :2tu:
     
  7. Lawrenzo

    Lawrenzo Viper Owner

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    Don't they make about 2700 SRT's a year now? What will the total be once the coupe is added in? GM is talking about making around 5,000 Z06's a year so it will be somewhat exclusive as well.

    Bottom line for me- I've owned Vettes and currently own a GTS. I like both cars because I'm a "car guy". I don't have one of those silly little cartoon characters pasted to my back window of a "Dodge kid" peeing on a Chevy sign, and I don't feel that true car enthusiasts should vehemently bash other well made hot-rods. I've owned Dodges, Fords, Buicks, Pontiacs, Chevys, even AMC's so I guess I'm an equal opportunity gearhead :laugh:
     
  8. agentf1

    agentf1 Viper Owner

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    Thats odd, I don't seem to have that problem. :rolleyes:
     
  9. agentf1

    agentf1 Viper Owner

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    Well said... :2tu:
     
  10. Mopar426

    Mopar426 Enthusiast

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    If you think they are going to build 30,000 Z06 a year you are dreaming. GM already stated it will be a limited run similar to the ZR1's in the 90's with less than 500 per year like the '93-'5 ZR1. Hell, the C5 Z06's averaged < 7,000/yr and in 2004 made only 5,600. I highly doubt you'll see these cars coming and going like the C5 Z06.
     
  11. FLYNLO

    FLYNLO Enthusiast

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    I think it will all depend on the pricing. If it's priced around 65,000, i guarantee you they will sell many. Lets wait and see the price.
     
  12. Bill Pemberton Woodhouse

    Bill Pemberton Woodhouse VCA Member - West VCA Member

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    This thread was started because , I do sincerely believe we fail to see what others do , because most of us are so in love with this car ( heck some more than their significant others ). But , I fail to believe, like Joe 117 that DC is not paying attention. I have the opportunity to Instruct drivers from various car clubs during the year, and most are blown away that we enjoy the ear of the corporate tower, who spends oodles of money to show us how much they value our loyalty and influence ( Viper Owner Invitationals ). Without getting into the simply economics of scale and what can be done with a car that has 40,000 clones, compared to a hand built car that numbers between 1200 to 2400 per year, the comment of a very wise man somewhat says it all, " Gee, it is pretty funny there is so much hubbub about a car that finally met our horsepower figures, it's not like they vaulted beyond us." With 13 years as King , if we may fall slightly behind for a bit, I sincerely believe most of us will be there for the return of the King ( heck , he hasn't even fallen yet ). We may be spoiled that because we have been given so much by DC, that we expect them to always triumph beyond reproach, and I , for one, have faith that when Dodge responds the answering salvo will be huge, not just a attempt to equal the competition. Of course I base this all on faith, as living in a Automotive Bubble, I see what our other manufacturers do under the company umbrella, and no one reaches out for their customers like DC does for us - a very select clientele. Fred K. and Paul K. said their piece well, and the mystique of the car has never been just about hp, since we are after all the Eternal King of Torque Motors ( gasoline of course, ha).


    The end result was sitting in the grandstands, the folks were there by the Coupe, they knew what it was, and they approved. I found it amazing that someone complained about payoffs for the magazines to say such wonderful things about the Snake - kinda funny and I wonder where they have been over the years when we seemed to fail to get any press ,or what was listed viewed us as only the bully on the block. We are a difficult group to satisfy, I only thank God that DC sees fit to actually continue to listen to us , even in the midst of our somewhat irrational tirades.
     
  13. Viperfreak2

    Viperfreak2 Viper Owner

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    Bill, the changes at the top of DC since the time of 'viper: 13 years as king' make me think there are no listeners anymore. Are there any Lutz, Bernhard, or ..... someone name them (I can't) TRUE car guys who see the All American Viper as a halo?, not just a "makes money" or "doesn't make money" vehicle. No change that, PRODUCT.

    If your passion is TACOS, you should work at taco bell. If you have little interest in cars....you shouldn't work at a car company.

    Someone at Ford molded the GT into an incredible performance and lust object, cost be damned. Someone at GM specified all the neat stuff to keep the Z06 light. Impressive engineering. Someone at DC said 'how can we get a coupe into production using as many carryover parts as possible for X amount of dollars....

    Just my opinion.
     
  14. Bill Pemberton Woodhouse

    Bill Pemberton Woodhouse VCA Member - West VCA Member

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    Viperfreak2,

    You asked probably the most perfect question about why I may appear so confident about the direction of Daimler Chrysler. Your concern about the zeal and effort being exerted at MoPar Land is an honest question, and the same concerns probably were exhibited when folks wondered if Lutz and others could follow in Iacocca's shoes. Here was an Icon , who worked on the Mustang ( 1960s ) as a very young man, and had his second run at legendary status as the Savior of Chrysler. Lutz, Gale, Roy Sjoberg ( Father Viper ), etc., set a standard that again merits the acclaim they recieved , but as one semi-old fart, I firmly believe the folks in charge now will be canonized by the Pentastar faithful as the best ever. Why would I make such a bold claim in the face of legends, you may ask? The reason is the impact some are already having and the shear enthusiasm they bring to the gate. Ralph Gilles, whose design team did the 300C, Magnum RT, brought out the Coupe in record time, is being noticed throughout the entire Automotive World as a huge talent - so big that let's hope DC can continue to harness his skills. A 14 hour day is a short one, work on the weekends is the norm, and his love for the job is contagious to anyone who talked to him at VOI. Dan Knott, Director of SRT, is of the same ilk and a quiet man of integrity who loves his understanding wife, for allowing him the Mistress of Horsepower, as a second love. He may appear as a subdued , studious Engineer, but his will to crush the competition is every bit as dynamic as a Professional Football Lineman driving to sack the Quarterback. Having been around these gentleman, to engineers like Jeff Roselli, Matt Bejnarowicz, etc., and seeing their work ethic, based not on punching the clock but on pure unadulterated passion, I confidently tell you that the men and women working on the all the projects at Daimler Chrysler will ,years in the future, go down as even larger Legends to our children. Surprise, never a brief answer from me, but the passion is there, the drive to win has never been greater, but like any agenda , things can never come to pass exactly as we would like. I remember many of the old school that were well deserving of praise and respect, but with the merger came a new breed, a new awakening, and , yes, many struggles. We are now reaping the rewards, of some tremendous work that in years to come we will look back and say it was a fantastic time in the annals of the automobile.


    Just think;
    Crossfire SRT-6
    SRT-4
    300C SRT-8
    Magnum SRT-8
    Viper SRT-10
    Ram SRT-10
    Ram Quad Cab SRT-10
    and , soon, ....

    Viper Coupe
    and, hopefully...

    Firepower

    Please name a more dynamic Car company in today's World?! :2tu:
     
  15. Black SRT

    Black SRT Enthusiast

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    Bill P. wrote:

    >Thanks DC for listening, and giving us the opportunity to voice or concerns, thoughts, and opinions, and now that the next Snake is ready to strike…….

    Bill,

    I know you’re been a great Viper sales guy over the years, but your current pitch is a difficult one. Haven’t you been paying attention? The results are in and all generations of Viper owners dislike the new coupe. It has the split personality of Gen’s II & III and most find it odd looking. Many of us would tolerate the looks if they were backed up by performance, but DC failed to deliver in that department as well. Many Viper owners disliked the looks of the SRT-10, when it first came out, but I sold my RT/10 to buy one, based on performance. Similarly, this is why I’m moving to the Z06. I believe it will produce mid to low 11’s in the ¼ mile, in stock form. If DC comes around maybe I’ll be back, but don’t try and tell me they gave us what we asked for, because if you do…………then you just haven’t been paying attention. :)
     
  16. BobK898

    BobK898 Enthusiast

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    Amen.
     
  17. JBenko

    JBenko Enthusiast

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    Bill,

    I don't think anyone's personal commitment is being questioned here. I have no doubt that there are numerous individuals at DC who are chomping at the bit to do an aluminum frame, make a dry sump motor, replace body panels with carbon fiber, add a diff cooler, redo engine internals in titanium etc.

    What is being question is DC's $ commitment to the program.

    You have to concede that Lutz has somehow converted an organization that used to think the Pontiac Aztec was a good idea to commit significant resources ($$$) to not only make cars like the new Cadilac V's but to also do all of the things I mentioned above in the new Z06. You have to concede that GMs commitment to the C6 racing program is exactly what DC abandonded when they gave up the Viper GTS-Rs. You have to conced that GM needs to do these things because they NEED an image program.

    DC on the other hand may just be thinking that their image program is better served by AMG, F1, the SLR, and twin turbo V12's with a three star emblems. The point is that DC has Mercedes as well as Dodge in it's stable.

    So what does this mean to us ? Well, I still see the competition as a good thing for us consumers. Yes, I LOVE my Vipers. No, I am not brand loyal to the point of blindness. Given what's out there re. the new Coupe and the Z06 it's a no brainer to go with the 'Vette.

    The way I see DC is certainly aware there is a huge problem looming for Viper. Either they will decide to respond (and it will take a significant commitment if they do), or they will try to limp along as long as possible trying to exploit the Vipers past image to make sales. My $.02 from knowing a large number of Viper owners is that most of us love them because they are raw, kick ass, take no prisoners, hands down performers. The first reports in magazines (and threads here) that show actual Z06 perf. #'s better than the Coupe will absolutely kill the coupes sales.

    No, this isn't a thread about the Z06. This is actually a thread that hopefully is making DC concerned enough to take a hard look at upping it's budget for Viper.
     
  18. Bill Pemberton Woodhouse

    Bill Pemberton Woodhouse VCA Member - West VCA Member

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    Rick M.,

    No question Forums are there to voice opinions , and I respect yours , but the reality is I have to listen to customers, and with the number of deposits we have recieved, there is no doubt many people really like the new Coupe.
    I have been listening, and for years I have heard how goofy the RT-10 is from GTS faithful, and then I am bombarded by how the GTS is a clown shoe and the RT-10 is the only true Snake. I had guys call me after they said they would never buy an SRT-10 over their GTS, and months later the Coupe is on the lot, and they are going topless. The simple answer, is no hand-built car can meet all the demands of such a small passionate group, nor can a Manufacturer spend the same dollars on a 2000 unit product as one spends on a 40,000 unit one. This is common sense, and there is a point where you have to regard a Corporation's History towards it's owners and decide where to put your faith. I have no problem saying I like the Coupe, and sure I am going to be accused that I am just saying it because I sell them( human nature ). The reality is I would rather back the product that has been at the top for tons of years than the one that just now caught up. I sure don't think the Snake is down, I fully believe it will be fully coiled and strike again with more Venom than ever before - just not on everyone's exact timeline. As I stated from the very beginning, check it out and your opinion may change, and if not, I am always in favor of the competition, as it can only benefit us all. Nuff said.
     
  19. Nsane1

    Nsane1 Viper Owner

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    That reminds me, I need to get my coupe deposit back... I was for sure this would be my third viper, but I guess I need to start looking elsewhere. I won't settle for second best, nor am I interested in a Vette. Dodge made it easy before, beautiful cars that were the quickest around. I have no plans to get rid of the current vipers, but I can't justify another ~80 for my SRT with a hardtop glued on, revised rear-end and a great paint job, that happens to be slower than a vette. Oh well, I hope DC is listening, but I hear that they are investing as little as they can to get by on this one... I don't want to reward that type of beahvior.

    Competition is a good thing for us when people don't give up.
     
  20. Supercharged Vipermad

    Supercharged Vipermad Enthusiast

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    Wouldn't you leaving...and this comment, be an oxymoron? Not sure of the right use of the word...sorry...but isn't that, in fact, what you are doing? Neither car is on the floor, rolling out the door...and you have decided? Very interesting indeed. :confused:
     
  21. Black SRT

    Black SRT Enthusiast

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    Bill P. wrote:

    >I fully believe it will be fully coiled and strike again with more Venom than ever before - just not on everyone's exact timeline.

    Bill,

    No problem! If this the case, in a few years, you and Chuck Tator will be the first people I call. Nothing like a little competition to keep things honest. :)
     
  22. SnakeEye

    SnakeEye Viper Owner

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    Rick... Good luck with the sale of your beast and the purchase of a C6 Z06--eight months or so down the road when they're scheduled to finally roll of the line. Of course by now you do know the Z06's not a convertible (lol), but then, maybe that was never really important to you anyway.

    My current thought process (assuming GM makes good on its specs) is to park one next to my SRT-10 which I think may offer the best of both worlds. Time will tell. One thing is for sure, your black SRT-10 was darn good looking...all those USAF pilots sure thought so too. :)
     
  23. Fiorano

    Fiorano Enthusiast

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    I was extremely impressed by the SRT-10 carbon. DC made the car much lighter and gave it an engine that could be considered a work of art aside from its stunning hp rating. It seemed like such a great effort. There were even rumors of it being produced.

    Was cost the reason it was canned? I'll bet DC would have found many buyers even at $100K or more. I could just imagine the look on the unsuspecting Porsche/Ferrari/Lambo owner when you popped the hood on the SRT-10 carbon revealing 10 throttle bodies and surrounding carbon work.

    My bank account is happy it won't be made. Otherwise I'd be about $100K poorer.
     
  24. Viperfreak2

    Viperfreak2 Viper Owner

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    Bill, I wasn't necessarily doubting that there are passionate car nuts at DC. Hell the guys at the top are making the right decisions to spend huge amounts to stuff 700+ hp in a whole boatload of cars....
    The question is: Do the Americans and the Germans have different priorities when it comes to which passion they throw the money at? Yes.
    We did the mini convertible 'cause we had a passion for the little car. Would we have done it if there were 200+ days of inventory sitting on dealers lots? Yes, but it would not have gotten near the engineering money, time and effort.
    Without the money to fund a project....doesn't matter if the C has the drive to do it if the D says NINE!
     
  25. Paul Hawker

    Paul Hawker Viper Owner

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    As a side note to this discussion. I was able to see both cars at the Detroit auto show. Compared to each other the new Coupe is much more integrated a car. The Z0-6 looked very cobbled up. Bigger fenders stuck on did not flow with car, but looked kind of Saleen aftermarket. The scoops in the fenders also looked aftermarket. The SRT flowed much better and (my opinion) was a much prettier car. Both cars shared some of the same design issues of looking a little short and stubby in the rear end.

    My decision is to stay with Dodge. Both cars offer kick butt preformance. I am concerned that the high winding chevy will only offer hp up high on the tach. The lack of low end torque will detract from it's driving appeal on the street.
    I also have concerns about the first time use of aluminum in chevy's frame.

    The obvious reason for me to stay with Dodge is the great support and friendship with other Viper owners. I have had other vettes, and the people at their events did not offer me the same comaradity.
     
  26. Steve-Indy

    Steve-Indy VCA Venom Member VCA Member

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    Bill, answer your phone.
     
  27. dangerous

    dangerous Enthusiast

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    I just think when you can roll into a local dealer who has more than enough vipers on the floor and he will sell it to you for under invoice should tell you something. Did they flood the market with them? Is it overpriced for what it delivers? How about word of mouth? I sold my 04 SRT right after I got it and would never recommend the car all though it was a fun drive and I'm sure many people fall in love with them.

    I remember when the SRT10 first came out how the boards were flooded with worries about the new Z06 on the horizon. Of course they have direct competition with each other. They share a unique price point / performance place in the market that can now be shared by the new S281E Saleen Mustang at 500hp and around $60k. Bottom line is DC was in a bad position being 1st up with the SRT and were out done by the Z06. I think the same would have happened if the ZO6 came first. It's good business.

    There is always mods. It's never ending.

    P.S. Not that it has anything to do with vipers but check the 0-60 on the new S7. I think that's a few steps away from time travel.

    http://www.saleen.com/saleen_s7_performance.htm
     
  28. joe117

    joe117 Enthusiast

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    Look, the proof that DC is not interested in real performance, but wants to trade on the past is the Hemi V8.

    The history of the Dodge hemi has nothing to do with that V8 they are selling now. There is nothing special about the hemi V8.

    And yet, what do they try to drill into the heads of potential buyers? HEMI.
    "Can you say hemi boy? Hemi. That's all you need to know".

    Well , that's just BS. The GM V8s make that stupid hemi look like a dog. And yet, that's their selling point, hemi.

    They are trading on the past.

    When GM makes 40k regular Corvettes a year and, say, 5k ZO6s, they can offset any R&D and crash test costs. When you make less than 3k Vipers, and you lose money on every one, what do you do?
    You don't change anything. You don't bump up the horsepower because you are already getting killed on warranty costs as it is.

    Never heard of a GM sponsored COI?
    Do any of you think that the money spent by DC supporting Vipers means anything to DC? Do you think that money for VOI is even a small fraction of what a small TV spot on the CBS news costs?
    Wake up! They don't spend jack on Viper club/owner/event support.
    I don't expect them to. I see what they spend and it's chicken feed.
    Did they fool you?

    Viperfreak2 said,
    "Someone at DC said 'how can we get a coupe into production using as many carryover parts as possible for X amount of dollars"

    Jeez, can't anyone but me see that the first Viper was put together with that idea in mind.

    Do any of you think that no windows, an afterthought top, cheap cast painted wheels and parts from every other Dodge, was because they wanted to make the best car they could?

    No, they cobbled it together to sell for a price. The big V10 was the only thing that kept it from being an also ran to the Corvette.
    And in those days the 250hp Corvette wasn't even trying.

    What I'm getting at here is that the Viper is only a very small side job to DC.
    They will trade on the name VIPER as long as they can, the same way they are hyping that stupid hemi.

    They don't care about you guys who insist on having the fastest, the king of the road.
    Viper is still a very fast car but, you king of the road guys go buy something else, DC doesn't care. There are plenty of Viper buyers out there who are not smart enough to know that the supercar world is passing it by.
     
  29. SnakeEye

    SnakeEye Viper Owner

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    joe117, you are now dismissed.

    The SRT-10's numbers don't lie...

    0-60mph 3.8
    60-0mph 97ft
    11.8 @ 123.6mph 1/4mile
    190+mph top speed

    World class performance no matter how you slice it.
    Add a Paxton, and take things to a whole new level!
    Best of all...it's a convertible. What else compares?
     
  30. BobK898

    BobK898 Enthusiast

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    Joined:
    May 11, 2001
    Location:
    St Louis,MO,USA
    Add this, add that - sounds like the Cobra Mustang crowd. King out of the box is what it should always be.
     

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