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Have the discussions on the VCA site gone to hell?

Discussion in 'General Viper Discussion' started by VIPER GTSR 91, Jul 12, 2013.

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  1. ViperSmith

    ViperSmith Enthusiast

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    Agree, as a Gen V owner, I can't wait to see what Jack does with the car.

    I am a boring daily driver (Well, I drive as much as I can) that will hopefully track next year - I enjoy seeing what the "gear heads" do.

    It is sad that the obvious trolls will keep those doing the cool stuff away.
     
  2. Bugman Jeff

    Bugman Jeff Enthusiast

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    The OP clearly stated what he meant by "gone to hell" in the second sentence. That portion of his post should require no further interpretation. This thread is a perfect example. What started as a civilized discussion on the best ways to get the forum back on track is now full of attacks on peoples integrity.
     
  3. kratedisease

    kratedisease Enthusiast

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    Thank you for your civil response.

    Your response states that "There is an existing culture in the VCA". I understand.

    My ONLY point and or issue that was brought up (on topic of this thread) is that Senior/veteran " long time" members who are truly very helpful on this site ( no sarcasm) are alienating new members ( enthusiasts) with their degrading and derogatory comments. Fact.

    I see that many other members come to the defense of Mr. Coloviper and others because they give a lot to the VCA boards and clubs. Fact and acknowledged.

    And if a member contributes greatly, does that senior member now have the right to degrade, dismiss, insult, falsely slander, or intimidate or threaten a member who opposes a post based solely in opinion or fact ?

    I do not think so. And this is why I am posting.

    For any forum to continue to exist, and to continue to grow, this " existing culture of culture of the VCA" surely needs to accommodate opposing opinions.

    Just IGNORE, or REBUT a Post..... do not degrade, insult, or discredit the person posting. This VERY SIMPLE CONCEPT that allows so many OTHER forums to happily ATTRACT new members, which attracts new advertising, etc.

    You state "Your (my)posts seem to suggest that you think the existing, long time members and posters should adjust to you"

    I answer is , NO they should NEVER adjust to me. They should adjust to everyone else who has left as a result of the negative , degrading responses and personal attacks that just turn off any new people who post.

    Vipperyalley.com and Viperforums.net would NEVER exist if the " existing culture of culture of the VCA" was different

    REMEMBER - SIMPLE RULE:: If you see a post that you just hate, just REPLY, REBUT or IGNORE, BUT DO NOT attack or discredit the person posting it. As soon as you attack or discredit the person who posted it you have now alienated your members.

    And if you (the forum) SUPPORTs contributing senior members by dissolving them of any responsibility when they feel they can freely attack a member instead of rebutting or ignoring their post , you will see this site shrink and Viperalley.com and Viperforum.net GROW.

    VERY SIMPLE Lesson. Easy to learn. If you hate a post, REBUT it, REFUTE it, IGNORE it, BUT NEVER discredit or degrade the member who posted it. Focus on the actual Post and NOT on the person posting it.

    I am always here to help. And thank you for your time. Always a pleasure to be a guest on this VCA forum.

    And by the way, How is the weather down in Florida ? We are having a heat wave here in New York.
     
  4. chorps

    chorps Enthusiast

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    Yep. Straight to hell. IBTL.
     
  5. viper k

    viper k Enthusiast

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    iam just proud to be a american and own a viper!
     
  6. daytonprowler

    daytonprowler Enthusiast

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  7. HobokenViper

    HobokenViper Enthusiast

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    I think there is an overall lack of people reading their own posts before or after they post them. If some people would have re-read their posts once or twice before posting and thought about what they hope to accomplish with what they write, they might remove or edit their response before posting something potentially inflammatory to others on here. If some people on here re-read their posts after posting them and REALLY read them honestly, they would be embarrassed for themselves.....

    It's honestly very annoying and frustrating for myself and others to read through a thread that starts out good only to be hijacked and taken over by someone either looking for trouble or someone who says something potentially rude or mean because they didn't take a step back for a moment before they posted to make sure they weren't posting absolute nonsense. Reading some of the posts and threads lately that have devolved into nonsense reminds me of childish middle school behavior. Why some people care so much to get so insulted and fire back with ever increasing anger is beyond me. Please use this forum for what it was intended for, a place to share information, get and give advice, talk about our cars and share experiences with them, and meet new friends. If you are on here to get in debates on why your Viper has a bigger pecker than someone else's, then this is not the place for you, and you are the exact cause of the toxic mess on here now. Stop caring what others think so much and enjoy the fact that you own a rare and amazing car. I thought that most of us who own Vipers didnt care what others think of us, which is why we have no problem with owning one of the loudest and baddest cars on the planet. Hell, get out and drive your Viper and get a smile on your face instead of sitting on here putzing around for endless hours arguing about nonsense that just doesn't matter worth a hill of beans!!!!! And for crying out loud, please grow up and get lives!!!!!
     
  8. johniew398

    johniew398 Enthusiast

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    Hey, that's cool how you can "ignore" a user like kratedisease. Not that new users can't have something useful to say; but, he just joined two months ago and now, well...

    Back to the original topic: I love the forum, pay each year because you don't run these sites for nothing. I have normally found help on anything I've needed. I see dozens of members who post a question and, yes a minority will get on-line and try to tell the poster how dumb they are for posting the question, or chastise them for not using the search function. But, most members will try to help that person or if they know it has been discussed they will go look up the link and put the link of a previous thread on-line to help out.
     
  9. VIPER GTSR 91

    VIPER GTSR 91 Enthusiast

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    Thanks and very well stated. This is one of the best and to the point replies since my original thread went side ways. The above reply by 398 is spot on too.
     
  10. Bobpantax

    Bobpantax Enthusiast

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    Good post. Question. Is someone who "putzes around" a schmeckle?
     
  11. Y2K5SRT

    Y2K5SRT Enthusiast

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    In my very humble opinion, and not necessarily that of the club, there are three factors in play:
    1. The new Viper often represents a new breed of owner as others have noted. With all those wonderful electronics comes owners more inclined to use them and less owners looking for a "bare bones" performance car they can wrench on themselves. They may know (and care) more about pairing their Bluetooth than how various fuel mixtures affect a dyno run - and there is nothing wrong with that: I have two sons myself that fall into this category. While these owners may love the horsepower and all it brings, it is only part of the new Viper's offerings. While one new owner may have seemed a bit crass when they said the Gen V is the first Viper worth owning, the reality is that for some new owners it is the first one worth owning because they have never embraced the earlier and far more raw Vipers. They may be part of the Plug-and-Play Generation, one not so much determined by age but by embracing the technology-based world as it is coming to be. Newspapers are being replaced by the internet, social groups are moving online, road atlases have been replaced with GPS, and cars are becoming portable home/offices with hands-free phones, WiFi, cameras, and so much more. This Viper is an entirely different breed, and many of the new owners reflect that. Many current owners are simply "old school".
    2. Perhaps a few of these owners, as well as the numerous non-owner enthusiasts, are more accustomed to the hit-and-run feedback that anonymous posting brings. Check out YouTube and look at some of the replies on the more popular videos. Everybody has an opinion, and some of those serve no purpose other than people (generally males) marking their territories with whatever they can come up with. A 14-year-old kid can tell his buddies that he "told off a bunch of Viper owners" as though it is some badge of honor. The club can usually weed those folks out, but not always.
    3. Like many other social clubs and organizations, there are always a handful of people that will try to "divide and conquer" by throwing out falsehoods in hopes they would stick. Things like people leaving the club in droves (they aren't), vendors disappearing (ditto), and the website losing visitors (not even close). I'll touch on this more in a minute, but people should really investigate the reality of what others claim, especially when the issues are so divisive. I was reading up on situations like this and learned that a certain type of person might work towards "turning one group of people against another group while proclaiming themselves to be the one true savior. Wherever they go, they create strife, argument and hatred, yet they utterly fail to see their own role in creating it." (Source: http://www.naturalnews.com/036112_sociopaths_cults_influence.html)
    The website moderators work diligently to monitor these various issues and stop them whenever they can. Hi-jacking is most common and the one for which the club must be most diligent. Those affected often complain about censorship and proceed to berate these volunteers both privately and publicly. It is a difficult line to walk for those moderators, and few are able to put up with the grief they endure in order to make this a better site.

    Let's face it, it all starts with you to make positive contributions and help site staff weed out the negative.
    Feel free to contact the web admins if you would like to help by either using the "Contact Us" link at the bottom of every page or by reporting offending posts by clicking the triangle with the exclamation point on the bottom left of the post itself:

    [​IMG]

    As far as vendors go, it seems that pretty much all but one that are still in business still post here. Chuck Tator, Dan Lesser, Dan Cragin, Mark Jorgensen, and many more often jump in to help. There is only one vendor notably absent, and that vendor brought it entirely upon itself - and continues to do so. As for individual contributors, some simply burn out and fade away. Throw in a new generation of Vipers and owners where syncing your music files may be more important than oil weights, and those "old timers" may now spend more time elsewhere - probably driving their cars. ;)

    I don't think you are referring to Hennessey Performance, although for many years that company was also "off limits" on the site due to actions that forced the club to suspend its advertising and posting privileges. The company you are probably referring to was more recently suspended from advertising and posting by the club
    (2012). After over a decade of challenges with this vendor (far predating the current administration, VPA, etc.), the club was forced to take action. One of the practices of that vendor is to ask customers to post references on their behalf - advertising for them. With that vendor still suspended, such ads are simply not allowed - regardless of who posts them. This is not a new policy by any means and has been in place for many, many years.

    It is a very real concern and certainly not isolated to these forums. Watching comments on Facebook and YouTube spin out of control is fascinating and pretty disturbing for a lot of folks. It seems to be how society is evolving (or devolving) and not a reflection on Viper owners in general.

    Okay, this will get even longer - fair warning. :D

    It is not easy to launch a new car and a new brand simultaneously, especially with such a limited staff. High demand from dealers meant high demand from suppliers. Add in the fact that the vast majority of cars ordered by dealers were the more content-heavy GTS model vs the "bare bones" SRT and it may have put even more stress on SRT and their suppliers. With so many current Viper owners complaining that the new car might be too luxury-oriented, SRT may have predicted an 80/20 mix of the base model vs GTS. Instead of customers ordering cars to spec most of the orders appear to have been made by the dealers themselves - dealers that felt a more fully-equipped Viper would be more popular. Result? A lot of GTS models on dealer lots and high demand for all of those extra features in proportions that some suppliers may not have planned for. So when you build 150 Launch Editions you may "use up" most of the available supply of some GTS-specific part, resulting in a shortage for other customer orders. It can get quickly out of control, especially when social media sites start picking up on it. Of course this is entirely conjecture on my part.

    The biggest thing the Viper has to overcome to gain those new customers is past perception. There isn't a review out there on previous Vipers that talks about how comfortable the car is, how the stereo is top notch, how the heated seats work great, etc. Instead they almost always talk about the "raw" nature of the car - something that many high-end car buyers simply don't want in a $100K+ exotic car. Let's face it, the most basic Corvette was better equipped than the most decked out Viper you could buy from 1992 - 2010. As mentioned previously, many of these new buyers may not be true "car guys" as many of us know them - instead they are looking for the best overall package for their exotic car dollar. SRT must educate these potential new owners by espousing these new features and pointing out how the interior alone competes with the finest exotics in the world - something that could never be considered with the previous Viper. So instead of some print ad showing the outside of the car, or a video showing it from the outside burning rubber or tearing up a track, SRT should show the INSIDE of the car in a print ad. Videos should start with the interior and electronics (quick shots of the dash, radio, USB connections, etc.) then expand to show the upgraded leather interior and only then pull to an outside shot of the car smoking the tires or coming out of a dark fog bank with those spiffy new headlights. Maybe close with the tag "It's not your father's Viper". Right now most people probably think it is the same Viper that has always been portrayed by the media (beautiful but bare bones, uncontrollable, and uncomfortable), and that is most definitely not the case with this latest iteration.

    In my very personal and humble opinion, this was a marketing error - not the necessarily the price, but the creation of two different models. In that same humble opinion, the car should have simply been called the Viper GTS (by SRT), with various trim packages available to deck it out as you like. I think they saw how the ACR far exceeded sales expectations over the standard SRT10 and perhaps saw this as a similar opportunity. The challenge is that the ACR is visually different and generally built for a different purpose - track vs. cruise. Mind you, many owners fell in love with the looks and didn't care about the inherent track abilities and the car sold very well as a result. Few will spot the differences between an SRT and a GTS other than the small badging on the side. Pretty much every exterior bit is available for both models, as are the different wheels. So while you have to look closely to spot the difference of these two latest models, there is absolutely no mistaking a Gen 4 ACR for any other 2003 - 2010 Viper. They didn't sell because of the name or price points, but because of the looks and what they represented (track records, etc.).

    We are just not seeing that. Witness Ralph himself showing up with the VCA at two very recent events, including one in Italy over Independence Day and again this past weekend with the folks in the WV/PA VCA at Carlisle. When Ralph called me a month or so ago we spoke at length about the club and what it means to Chrysler and SRT. He said, "It’s the car and the people that buy the car. I love them all. I go out of my way to visit regions, I don’t know why people think differently."


    The challenge here is that some folks, especially some of the newer (not necessarily younger) generation see Facebook and Twitter as the end-all for social media right now. And it is - for those same people. However there are a LOT of potential Viper buyers that ignore it with a passion. Many are execs who simply don't have time to update their status every other minute. Others get quickly fed up with the repeated notices on their emails or phones, eventually turning them off and forgetting about it for weeks at a time.

    There is no question that SRT is trying to drive buyers for all of their products to Facebook, Twitter, etc. The problem with that approach is that it brings together a large demographic that doesn't always mix well. The guy buying a used SRT4 Neon is not the same guy buying a loaded 2014 Viper GTS. Trying to provide "one size fits all" websites or even clubs simply won't work when it comes to the Viper. It has nothing to do with being some sort of elitist, but is the reality of Viper buyers. During training for new SRT dealers, here were a few facts Chrysler Academy published about Viper owners in the training materials they gave to dealers:

    • Nearly all are an executive, manager or owner
    • Nearly all have high household incomes (over $200K)
    • 58% of Viper owners own or control a business
    • More than 84% of those have business fleets that they control
    • 28% of owners have 5 or more other personal vehicles (they mentioned that 46% own 4 or more)
    • 60% of owners have another Dodge/ Chrysler/ Jeep® product

    Now, what other Chrysler product shares those kind of demographics? Not a one. It seems counterproductive to throw them in with other SRT owners not because of any elite status, but because SRT should be targeting this buyer group specifically for all of the reasons that Chrysler itself has published above. And there is no better venue to do that than the Viper Club of America - period.

     
  12. BlknBlu

    BlknBlu Enthusiast

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    Thanks Chris.

    Bruce
     
  13. ViperSmith

    ViperSmith Enthusiast

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    I in no way disagree with you. I hope SRT opens its arms up. I realize the reactions were because of how people think it should be (Which I agree we shouldn't have to run off to Twitter to get attention).

    I take it for what it is and I hope others do as well.

    Great feedback.

    I've been highly critical of SRT over how they handled the launch. I in no way mean malice, I want SRT to do well and I want to see the Gen VI Viper hit the streets in a few years. I hope they are seeing the feedback and realizing where they have gone wrong.
     
  14. Coloviper

    Coloviper Enthusiast

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    Appreciate the reply Chris! I had all but left this discussion when it turned into complete chaos. It was clear that no matter how I responded to the attacks, it was going to continue to spin out of control further. Just wanted to come back briefly to say thanks!
     
  15. Y2K5SRT

    Y2K5SRT Enthusiast

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    BTW, for those of you that would like to see the new Viper at play in Europe with play-by-play from Mr. Gilles himself, here you go:

    http://www.drivesrt.com/live/

    Start at the bottom and work your way up. (Okay, that was kind of a hijack so I apologize in advance. :D)
     
  16. Fatboy 18

    Fatboy 18 Enthusiast

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    Thanks for the long post. That should clear some things up :2tu:
     
  17. Bobpantax

    Bobpantax Enthusiast

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    Slight hijack. As long as they had the GT3-R over there why didn't they do a Ring run and demolish the record for this class of vehicle?
     
  18. Johnny GTS

    Johnny GTS Enthusiast

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    YO, HOBEKEN VIPER, You said it right and true, I've seen it happen numerous times, to myself and others who are only trying to gain info, or make a friend in the club, after all we are all in this together and as Viper owners we can share are knowledge/stories, to enhance the Viper ownership experience. Some of these people are seriously miserable bastards or some kind of wanna-bees, who thrive on knocking the less knowledgable who have really made this club what it is today!
     
  19. And that post seems like a great place to end this. Thanks to all.
     
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