Heads & Cam kit

[THEMASH]

MTI makes this kit for the LS-1 motors, it adds 113.5RWHP
Go to: http://www.motorsporttech.com/ls1c5/index.html
Then LS-1 corvette, performance packages.

Now why hasn’t anyone made a kit like this for the vipers?

And how come the LS-1s are making so much power from a simple head & cam upgrade?

Tom Welch (or any other tuners out there), if you are reading this, give us a cam kit to go with your stage 2 heads please "BTR800"

 

[THEMASH]

I was told they dont work to well on the newer vipers "00 and above", also, i doubt any cam and heads kit will give as much power as those for the LS-1. plus, I like most guys here want to see some actuall dyno numbers, not claims. crower only claims it and i have asked on a previous post about the Crower cams and did not get much info.

 

[Martin D]

My 650R is basically just a top end job...(heads and cam) It added over 150hp to the tires on my car.

Regards,

 

[THEMASH]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Martin D:
My 650R is basically just a top end job...(heads and cam) It added over 150hp to the tires on my car.

Regards,

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ya, but look how much it cost you. $35K-$38K Vs the $2K for the LS-1 heads and cam. Plus, you were lucky, many venoms are not putting out the rated HP. i know, i have seen two of them run on the dyno.
Someone should come out with a heads+cam kit that adds same amount of power as MTIs kit.

 

[Martin D]

Sorry about that. But your post did not mention price...
I thought you were looking for a heads and cam combo.

"Now why hasn’t anyone made a kit like this for the vipers?"

Also, I would suggest that others go the route I did(self install). I had no problem with my 650R conversion. It went smooth as glass. AND to top it off, I paid NO WHERE NEAR 35K.


Mods:
TB's, Airbox, Cam, Heads, Headers, exhaust, Flywheel, Pully, Intake, PCM, 3.45's. Good luck in your search! If I can help, let me know!

Regards,

 

[THEMASH]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Martin D:

If I can help, let me know!
Regards,

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks Martin
You have an awesome car, I only hope one day I can make that much power.

Sorry i was not clear, let me put it in another way, a bit clearer i hope. it would be great to have a kit like MTIs, that will give that much power for the same money or a little more. hmmmm, ok. Even a lot more. I don’t know of any cam + heads kit that gains 113RWHP on the Viper. Even on HMS web site, u can’t find a cam + heads HP gain chart, or any other tuner for that matter. i mean they should test them and post dyno numbers like they do the HEADERS + EXHAUST mods.
I don’t know, maybe i am not making any since, it just seems that our cars (having a V10 with close to 8,000 cc) should have an upgrade Similar to MTIs that would make that much power if not more.
I know there are more LS-1s out there and I am sure more demand means cheaper and more available power. Also, maybe the cams on our cars flow pretty well from the factory.

 

[Tom Welch]

Mash,

We can supply you with a cam/head combo for your car if you'd like. Keep in mind though that my own viper has picked up 100RWHP with just the addition of headers/exhaust and our stage 2 head package using the STOCK cam.

The factory spent millions of dollars designing cams for the viper. I have seen many cams for all kinds of applications that just don't perform as advertised. A cam change requires head and oil pan removal, which requires several hundred dollars in small parts, not to mention labor hours to change.

I can arrange FREE shipping of your car to our facility and back, we will install our Stage 2 head package including 1.7 ratio roller rocker arms and dyno your car for $ 7900.00. This price includes everything like, gaskets, OIL CHANGE, cooling system refill, new head bolts, lifters and a complete detailing of your snake! Add $ 1000.00 for the cam of your choice, installed while we do the above. Your car will dyno 500+ to the rear wheels or we will credit you back $ 100.00 per horsepower under 500!! Anyone care to beat that deal??

Tom
Http://btrviper.com

 

[MichaelP]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Welch:
Mash,

We can supply you with a cam/head combo for your car if you'd like. Keep in mind though that my own viper has picked up 100RWHP with just the addition of headers/exhaust and our stage 2 head package using the STOCK cam.

The factory spent millions of dollars designing cams for the viper. I have seen many cams for all kinds of applications that just don't perform as advertised. A cam change requires head and oil pan removal, which requires several hundred dollars in small parts, not to mention labor hours to change.

I can arrange FREE shipping of your car to our facility and back, we will install our Stage 2 head package including 1.7 ratio roller rocker arms and dyno your car for $ 7900.00. This price includes everything like, gaskets, OIL CHANGE, cooling system refill, new head bolts, lifters and a complete detailing of your snake! Add $ 1000.00 for the cam of your choice, installed while we do the above. Your car will dyno 500+ to the rear wheels or we will credit you back $ 100.00 per horsepower under 500!! Anyone care to beat that deal??

Tom
Http://btrviper.com

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I am new to all this, do other tunners offer HP gain gurantees like this?

 

[HouseofSpeed]

FYI...all potential tuners, the stock Viper cam is a waste of time...anything with 60+ degrees of overlap will never make big power numbers.

The LS1 packages have the advantage of being based around a "common" powerplant. The LS1 is the production V8 of choice at GM and it can be found in one form or another in everything from Vettes to 3/4 ton trucks. That equates to a larger volume of service parts (read cores) and therefore, a cheaper hard cost for the vendor.

That, in a nutshell, is why the Viper cannot have an inexpensive head/cam combo....the basic components are vastly different in terms of price....well, at least the heads are more costly...cam prices for custom hydraulic rollers are about the same between an LS1 and a V10.

 

[LTHL VPR]

We have found that cams and heads yield fantastic gains, and should be given considerable thought when upgrading other components on the top end, including heads, rockers, etc.!

We offer head, cam, and rocker packages in combination with Viper computer tuning using our 'in-house' dyno tuning facility. When you upgrade to an improved cam profile, you most likely will need to use aftermarket 'longer-style' valves and stronger components; not the stock or MOPAR valves.

With proper software tuning, you should see an ADDITIONAL 120-140RWHP with the addition of headers, exhaust, our MOPAR modified EXTREME heads, custom camshafts and computer tuning. Our camshafts are designed to pass the 'sniffer' test in CA and should pass such emissions tests in all states.

If you have any questions, call me at 408.562.1000.
Thanks!

 

[MichaelP]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 1bad gts:
Michael, to answer your question yes there are many tuners out there who will guarantee you power numbers its actually quite common..

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks 1bad! Please list the tuners?

 

[Tom Welch]

Michael,

As you have read, lots of folks speak for folks and so on. I stand alone when it comes to a performance guarantee and an affordable price.

My packages are based upon many months of design and testing ON MY OWN CARS, BY MYSELF, not by watching someone else from the stands!

I call out to all tuners to match my pricing and performance with a guarantee, as thats what I was looking for when I myself was a customer searching for viper upgrades. This continues to be one of my corporate missions.

My company and our packages are about TOTAL HORSEPOWER. With our cam grinds(which will work well with stock static compression and be very driveable) are designed for 520 rwhp with our heads and exhaust.........but what sets us apart is when others are done and on the edge at 600hp to the rear wheels we have another guaranteed and safe 175 horsepower to boot! TOTAL HORSEPOWER.

Why have your engine beating its bearings out day in and day out from the rigors of part duty requirements to have 600 hp, just to be outperformed by a 500 hp engine like mine on nitrous? for half the price? Beleive me, if it was easy everyone would be offering it! We have been using nitrous successfully for over 20 years. Thats experience that you don't get from reading a magazine article.

Ask around about how long it has taken some of these "engine package" customers to get their cars back from seemingly far reaches of anytown USA. Ask did they make advertised power. Ask did they get everything as promised. Ask about repairs of these higher maintenance pieces, who does them near you, if anyone and so on. Ask about warranty-guarantee. When you think you have asked every question, ask a few more. Don't settle for anything less than PROOF OF PERFORMANCE in writing and accompanied by video of the products in action. You can find some tuners with this information on their websites. Some tuners don't have websites. Ask to speak with customers of each tuner.

Anyways, Im climbing down from my high-horse and my blood pressure is returning to normal. Good luck with your search and remember that when you are ready, we will pick up your car, modifiy it to make 520 RWHP GUARANTEED, and deliver it back to you for $8,900.00. The best part is, for another $ 1,749.00 + labor you can have another 170 RWHP with no other modification needed!

Tom
Http://btrviper.com

 

[THEMASH]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Welch:

modifiy it to make 520 RWHP GUARANTEED, and deliver it back to you for $8,900.00. The best part is, for another $ 1,749.00 + labor you can have another 170 RWHP with no other modification needed!
Tom
Http://btrviper.com
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I will call you tomorrow Tom, so we can talk about this.

 

[THEMASH]

Hey 1Bad,
No flame intended, but doesn’t Lingenfelter Performance have the fastest Viper "all motor" on street tires?? 11.0@134mph

 

[Tom Welch]

1bad,

Nothing against what you are saying or against Mr. Furman, but his car uses forced air induction. It is NOT "all motor"

Have a nice evening,

Tom
Http://btrviper.com

BTW, we ran 11.20 tonite @ 80 degrees F at 127 mph on motor with the STOCK cam and STOCK compression.

 

[Matt]

I'd like to know if the RWHP results quoted above for the heads/cam/exhaust package are the same for a Gen1 motor?

Matt

 

[Matt]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 1bad gts:
Matt, for some reason Gen 1 engines are usually approx 25-30 hp at the tires behind Gen-2.(given the same mods.)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can someone explain why this is still the case once the heads and cam have been modified? At that point there is nothing different between a Gen1 motor and a Gen2 motor, correct?

I'd like to find out if a Gen1 motor, at some level of modification, can ever be equal to a Gen2 motor.

Matt

 

[Doug Supercharged Vipers]

Here's a little more input to consider when upgrading heads and cam.

First, try to understand more about the Vipers (Speed Density) electronic fuel injection system. There are two major types of electronic systems. Speed Density and Mass Flow (MAS). A Speed Density system does not measure airflow directly. Instead, the computer calculates airflow by measuring rpm (speed) and manifold vacuum (load), then refers to a preprogrammed table to determine airflow. A significant degree of computation is required, because the computer must also compensate for the density (pressure and temperature) of the incoming air to correctly calculate the amount of fuel required (hence the name "Speed Density"). The computer also utilizes other sensor's interpretation of the engines rich/lean condition to correct its airflow calculations before determining the necessary injector pulse width, the amount of time the ECU opens the injectors.

Mass Flow fuel injection is more accurate, because it actually measures airflow instead of calculating it. This allows the fuel injection to compensate for moderate engine-content changes i.e. cam swap or different cylinder heads. A Speed Density system *in stock form* cannot adapt as easily, since its fuel map hasn't been programmed to understand or acknowledge changes. But on the other hand, MAS can become a restriction in high-horsepower applications.

As I mentioned above, the Viper computer *in stock form* doesn't allow you to take FULL advantage of the modifications referred to in this thread.

I hope this was a bit helpful,
Doug

 

[wmw1]

Also the factory PCM uses Air-Temp and Cam and Crank Shaft inputs (miss-firer data information),along with the most important input that allows the factory computer to release all the Fuel&IGN tables which are already programmed in the stock computer.This most important inputs are the Pre&Post O2 sensors!

If you are installing any additional add-ons and trying to gain max-HP gains,you have to address for the amount of O2 content which is released into the exhaust system.

Tampering with the factory computer tables is not a good thing towards the Manufactures of the car companys warranty and the Emission laws.

Sure there are alot of companys out there that are trying to reprogram the factory tables,but they will never be able to correctly configure the setting to all the tables already pre-set from factory.Wm

 

[LTHL VPR]

I'm not sure what system Nick at Modern is using, but if he is not switching over to a Mass-Air system, I think there is only 1 software program avaiable to us. This does not let you program timing/spark which is important; I believe it only can modify the fuel. We are starting to use the same system, but if there is one out there taht can give you full control of timing....we're definitely interested. Having control over the fuel is good, having control of the fuel and timing is IDEAL!
Keep me posted.
-Wayne (LTHL VPR)

 

[Matt]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 1bad gts:
Matt, for some reason Gen 1 engines are usually approx 25-30 hp at the tires behind Gen-2.(given the same mods.)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Matt:
Can someone explain why this is still the case once the heads and cam have been modified? At that point there is nothing different between a Gen1 motor and a Gen2 motor, correct?

I'd like to find out if a Gen1 motor, at some level of modification, can ever be equal to a Gen2 motor.

Matt


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can any of the tuners here explain this "phenominon" of a Gen1 motor never equalling the output of a Gen2 motor?

Matt

 

[Gerald]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Matt:
Can any of the tuners here explain this "phenominon" of a Gen1 motor never equalling the output of a Gen2 motor?

Matt

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Matt, well all know that GenII's went to rear exhaust which helped them pick up I think, 15HP? I also think that the GenII's have a more radical cam then a GenI. Maybe that's where the extra 50HP came from???

Gerald

 

[Matt]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gerald:
Matt, well all know that GenII's went to rear exhaust which helped them pick up I think, 15HP? I also think that the GenII's have a more radical cam then a GenI. Maybe that's where the extra 50HP came from???

Gerald


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gerald,

I can understand the differences in bolt-on modified motors. My question is why would there be any difference once a custom cam is used and the heads have been ported/polished or upgraded to Mopar Race heads? As this point I would think both Gen1 and Gen2 engines would be on level ground. Once everything has been replaced the only remaining difference is the wet-sleeve vs. dry-sleeve block, which I can't imagine is worth any HP.

Anyone, anyone, Bueler?

-Matt

 

[jp]

If you check the NHRA site, and the class facts will you find out the camshaft specification between different years.
/JP