how does rebound affect handling?

Gforce

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Curious -

Can anyone explain how rebound affects handling of the car? I saw tht kai had her the rebound on her motons dialed in at setting #3 but I'd be more comfortable if I could understand how more or less rebound translates into handling.

Any thoughts?

j
 

SnakeBitten

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Im hardly an expert in the field of handling so heres my take on it at the risk of sounding foolish....The bound is the initial upward responce of the shock as it reacts to a bump etc...The rebound is the shock pushing downward forcing the tire back in contact with the ground. I guess at level 3 the shock would rebound faster forcing the tire in contact with the road so you get better grip...Im sure someone more qualified will chime in...
 

Tom F&L GoR

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You're on the right track (pun.) Rebound of the shock is how fast it lets the spring expand (the shock doesn't push on the spring, it's the other way around.)

More rebound stiffness will keep the car flatter, since once the wheel goes up into the fender on a turn, stiff rebound won't let it it droop.
 

Irid

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I'll qualify this up front: Shock tuning is a hugely complicated science and art. Top teams employ special engineers and data analysts to derive accurate baseline settings. What's "in vogue" this year may not pan out the next, especially as tire technology advances. I'm glossing over many issues here but it's still probably a valuable write-up if you're not a suspension geek.

Stating that, and hugely simplifying things, here's where I'd start:

Shock tuning is primarily about two things: transitional vehicle balance ("handling") and controlling the wheel/tire combo over surface undulations. In both conditions, shocks act as "transitional springs" which absorb load depending upon *velocity* (or time, depending upon how your brain works), whereas actual springs bear load depending upon *position*. Together, shock and spring stiffness (and swaybars) generate an overall roll stiffness picture, which impacts the vehicle's "balance" at each time slice because tires don't respond linearly to vertical load (which we'll duck at the moment). As roll stiffness increases on one end of the car, it's asked to absorb more of the weight transferred while cornering; since the tires don't respond linearly, that end of the car "gives up." Add roll stiffness in the front and you increase the tendency to understeer; add it in the rear and you increase the tendency to oversteer.

We'll boil "bump" dampening down and say it's primarily limited by surface types; the rougher the surface the less bump one can run, as the vehicle will be bounced up into the air instead of just the (unsprung) tire and wheel assembly.

Which leaves us rebound. Assuming you're at all in the right ballpark, which some cars aren't, you're "critically dampened." This means that the total resistance offered by the shock is enough to control the compressed spring as it attempts to expand, without oscillating (much). For example, if you were to smash a wrecking ball onto the front of the viper and then lift it quickly, the front of the car would be pushed down quite far. Once the ball is released the front of the car would try to lift back up, and without a shock it would pass its typical ride height and then "pogo" up and down for awhile. A critically dampened setup would see the front end rise up to its normal ride height, not overshooting. This is all well and good, so let's move on...

So, assuming you're at all setup right, what can rebound dampening adjustments do for you? Simply put, it can adjust the balance of your car as you transition into and out of your steady-state cornering attitude by altering the transient roll stiffness of a particular end. For instance: as you're turning into a corner it takes a little while for the side forces to build up and for the vehicle to roll over onto its springs (as far as it will given some amount of side force, say 1G). When you finally get the car rolled over (and assuming a completely flat surface) you'll reach the mechanical roll stiffness afforded by the springs (and swaybars). At this point (steady state), shocks have *zero* impact upon the vehicle's handling. But on the way there, they are everything (and how often are you perfectly steady state?!).

Shocks offer resistance, and that resistance is speed related. Shocks are dyno'd with piston velocity on one axis and resistance on the other. When there's no movement, there's no resistance. No effect.

So, the magic happens 1)when there's movement (the wheel going up or down, i.e. the vehicle rolling upon its suspension) and 2) you've not yet reached steady-state cornering.

Say your car understeers at steady state. You could change this by tweaking with springs, swaybars, tire sizes, etc, but you actually like this because it's safe. What you're really looking for is "crisper turn in," but you don't really want to muck with the steady-state performance. This you can do via shock tuning, as "turn in" is simply another way to say "the transition into steady state cornering." We know that shocks add resistance during transitional movement, and that impacts the overall roll stiffness at a given point, so we can use that to our advantage.

"Crisper turn in" translated a bit really means "more rear transitional roll stiffness" - we're asking the rear tires to absorb the weight transfer *as the car rolls toward its final attitude* (that attitude only affected by the ultimate spring and swaybar stiffness). To get more transitional roll stiffness we could add rear bump or rebound, but since we're already dialed in (and are limited by) bump in this case, we have to add rebound. Bear in mind that braking and acceleration forces also come into play and impact things, so you may need to account for weight transfer fore and aft as well as side to side, that's when things get really neat. Under braking (while transitioning into a corner), front compression and rear rebound impact balance; under acceleration front rebound and rear bump impact balance.

Once the car's roll stops rolling and reaches steady state, the shocks do nothing (unless the surface changes).

Make sense? Use springs and swaybars (or CG, roll centers, tire sizes, etc.) to impact the ultimate steady state oversteer/understeer balance of a vehicle. Use shocks to impact the transitional balance (slaloms, turn in, track out, etc.). This balance has to be weighted against the need to use shocks to control the unsprung weight against surface imperfections, to cope with aero, etc. There's no single answer, and ultimatly it comes down to driver confidence and feel. Generally, higher shock stiffness "tightens up the car" and makes it faster to react, literally.

As with anything, you can screw it up too, and set shocks so stiff that they literally don't allow the springs to expand and "weight jack" the car after bumps, etc.

Typically, "good shocks" have more adjustability and less "stiction" in the mechanism itself. Today's Moton's feel far more supple than yesterday's hot setup, primarily because of this.

OK so that wasn't so short, but it's probably more than you wanted. Shock tuning and dynamic vehicle performance is widely misunderstood or miscommunicated, even by professionals. One person's experience may butt heads with another's engineering background. In general, what I've written above should be sound, but if people want to add (or ask for) more technical bits please do so, and if you want more plain "what if" cases then that's cool as well. I've glossed over many items and made a number of assumptions so the system makes sense as a whole, to an educated but inexperienced reader.

When in doubt, just add HP :eek:
 
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Gforce

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Tom,Snakebitten and especially Irid - You guys are awesome.

Not certain I grawked everything Irid was saying but let me see if I have my thinking straight -

I had a bit of the "pogo" action Irid mentioned. Happened at the exit of turn 3 screwed up turn 4 because they are pretty close. Sounds like dialing in a bit stiffer rebound would have kept the front down a bit more (right?).

The other was in the S turns down at the other end of the track. It used to be my fast spot but the car really wanted to whip on the second turn. Again, sounds like increasing rebound would help keep the car flatter during the transition (right again?)

Last thinking is the steady state. If I want the car to push or oversteer more, I'd need to go with an adjustable sway bar (or tires or maybe tire pressure) to affect the steady state.

Did I get this straight?

thanks again -

j
 
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Gforce

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OK - one more question as I re-read the part from Irid on rear tosional siffness.

If I followed that correctly, it seems that in order to increase turn-in, I may want to reduce the stiffness in my rear shocks such that they can absorb more of the transition and have the front compression relatively stiff (close to right)?
 

Kai SRT10

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The best book I have seen on this is called, Engineer in your pocket, by Carroll Smith:

http://www.motolit.com/0965160017.html

It is practical suspension tuning for complete newbies. It will give you some good information on how the various parts of your suspension affect car handling, and will also let you know what to expect when you make different adjustments.
 

Frank Parise

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Stiffening the rebound setting on a shock will result in quicker weight transfer off of that particular tire.

Softening the rebound setting on a shock will result in slower weight transfer off of that particular tire.

Softening rebound settings on your front shocks or stiffening rebound settings on your rear shocks will usually correct an understeering/push condition and help your car turn easier.
 

Irid

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Jay99GTS:
I don't know what the corners you mentioned are like (sweeper? switchback? etc.) so I'll go for general feedback. If you're getting overall "pogo" where your viper feels a bit floaty (think about your father's oldsmobile over freeway humps - a boat) then you can dial some of this out by increasing the shock valving. If you're way off the map the wrong way then you'd want to fix this with springs and shocks.

You mentioned "keeping the car flatter" in one example - try not to think about shocks this way, try to think about them as devices to alter the handling balance during transitions. The roll stiffness provided by the springs and swaybars is the only thing which works to keep the car flat (assuming no changes to suspension geometry, CG height, etc.); the shocks will alter how long it takes to get to that ultimate state, but not the final roll angle. In some cases you may whip the car one way and then the other so quickly that it never reaches its final roll angle, and in that sense you could think about it "keeping the car flat" but it might confuse things later. Just think about balance and feel ;-)

To answer your direct questions: If you wanted the ultimate handling to oversteer or understeer more, then yes it's probably wisest to attack that by adjusting springs, swaybars, tire size, suspension geometry, CG height, alignment (assuming it's not nailed, etc.). Adjustable swaybars are typically the easiest method of tweaking this, and frankly I'm surprised there aren't more in the Viper market. On the Porsche side, I could call one of a dozen manufacturers and get slider adjustable, precision machined, bushless swaybars. On the viper front I'm really only aware of one or two adjustable swaybars, and they are "hole adjustable" only, which isn't really enough precision. I think the comp coupe is blade adjustable, but I don't know of a great off the shelf Gen I/II solution... (anyone?)

If you wanted to up the turn in, you could up the rear rebound, or reduce the front bump.
 

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