Lots of talk about super-charging but is it really the right performance upgrade for

ACR Joe

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road racing. And let's face it, the Viper is first and foremost a road racer. My preference for road racing is pure motor, no boosting, no juice, just motor.

Tell me if I'm wrong. Can a supercharged engine hold up under sustained loads such as those encountered during road racing? What about turbo-charging (same question)?
 

V10 MOJO

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well since im posting like a bat outta helll tonight i may as well reply to this one also (hmm, is there a limit to replies in a day without requiring a credit card, LOL) seriously, good point and i would think detriment does exist vs NA with regard to your scenario. as safe and perfected boost and juice are getting still gotta be beyond norm stress, not that a viper cannot handle it just that its more than norm, so it would be logical to think that a NA 600hp would be more durable than a juiced or boosted 600hp, gurus? input please
 

Tom and Vipers

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One thing about supercharging and turbocharging - they both add compexity which is a liability because now there are more things to break and malfunction. (However, beware of high accelerations of trick NA cams. More load on the valve train and hence higher propability of failure.)

If you go by the 650 HP limit most people assign to the bottom end, then a NA 650 HP would be the most desirable due to the simplicity issue.

For a given level of torque, forced induction actually provides a "boost cushion" for the piston during overlap. This reduces the max tensile load on the rod bolts. This is always a good thing to do. So this is an advantage.

The real issue is probably finding someone who can build a 650 rwhp NA engine. To do this, they will have to have their bag of tricks in order. A lot of people simply do not know how to do this.

On the other hand, a supercharger merely needs a good fuel and spark management system with the right compression ratio to get the 650 rwhp.

At 650, you don't have to get into genuine supercharger cams which are proprietary. Nor will you require proprietary technology regarding wet flow, swirl/tumble, combustion chamber design and the like to get the 650 NA.

Keep in mind that when they needed more HP for WWII fighters, they added superchargers. Same thing with trucks, turbos. The brute force method. No need for trick technology.

One other thing, drag racing -v- track racing:

Every time you hear someone talking about HP in a Viper, the next thing discussed is 1/4 mile results. Well, what works for drag racing will not work for road racing. One local 50 lap asphault main event would wear out or break a drag racing engine. Heat gets into everything. Oil starvation during cornering and braking. Continuous operation at high rpm. And of course, brakes run orange.

Anyhow, that's the way I see it...

Tom
 

Vic

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Wow, Tom, are you off base!
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Just kidding, Tom. Please don't whip out your shelalie of mathematical models.
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VIPR GTS

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I think that Sean Roe has already started some basic testing of his car on the track for several session earlier. Since Sean is a road racer and not so much into the drag scene, at least that has been my impression, then I think that his setup will get more testing on track and will be a good indication of how the supercharged engine will hold up under those conditions. I am confident that if there are problems, Sean will devote alot of time to make it work correctly.
 

GONABITE

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Well folks as far a running a supercharged engine on a road course this past weekend I ran my car with Sean Roes S/C system and the car ran great on the track the coolant temp during all out consistant high RPMs was below 190 the car was very strong and actually was to fast for my ability on this paticular course since my perfered method of racing is in a straight line. I made pobably 60 laps at 3.45 miles a lap. Although this won't be done every weekend with my car nor will many other people. So for the occasional road racer I think this is a great setup. Once again nice job Sean Roe.
 
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SUN RA KAT

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I think the only problem with running a supercharger on road courses in hot weather will be getting rid of engine heat - but this is already a problem with regular engines, hence the Fluidyne Radiator.

Sean Roe has a kit the redirects air from under the front air dam to the radiator, but requires cutting under the front fascia to get the air to the radiator. It also will increase top speed.

Sean Roe Supercharger + Fluidyne Radiator + Sean Roe Under Fascia Cooling Kit + cooling ducts for the brakes + a few minor etceteras = a real fast road racing Viper.
 

MaxedGTS

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Has anybody dyno tested their car with the timing controller? My son and I have owned supercharged mustangs for years before our viper and I can tell you that removing timing did kill off alot of power. Not that it's a bad thing to remove timing but I wonder what the actual hp numbers would be with the timing removed?

thanks,
Max
 

jrkermode

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I think your question has several answers.

Are blown motors, in general, durable enough for road racing? Without a doubt, Yes. Blown motors have a nearly 100 year history of success in road racing.

For a given HP which is more durable in road racing, Blown or NA? In every series where both types have been allowed to run, the blown motors have always been more successful. For them to win, they had to finish. However, the motors have never been matched for HP, rather they have been matched for effective displacement.

Are the available Viper blower systems durable enough for road racing? Put another way, have any of the tuners done reliability testing on their systems? I've not seen any posted.

Which is better for road racing, turbo or blower? Both have shown a great deal of success in road racing, with recent history favoring turbos. However, turbos also run very, very hot. IMHO, a pair of red hot turbos is the last thing a Viper needs under the hood.
 

Andrew2KRT10

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I guess I have to either improve my driving alot,or get into more Viper-only events. With only the basic upgrades that I have done to my car, (tubes, K&N's, hi-flow cats, exhaust, VEC 1, better brake pads, brake air ducts), I don't see myself starving for more power. I guess because at most of the events I've been into, I'm up against Vettes, Porches, BMWs, and Ferraris, and I seem to be passing most of them.

Good thread! I've wondered about S/C & Road racing which is what I love most, then Auto X. Drag Racing ....I could take it or leave it
 

Tom and Vipers

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One question regarding road racing is how will the car be driven?

I know the local asphalt guys run to redline every chance they get.

In endurance racing is that the rule?

If it is, redline every chance, then the demands for road racing are without comparison.

However, it is another matter to drive a Viper for long periods during a track day and never go above 5000-5500. This is different from actually doing a race where you are pressing to the limit for 25-50 laps.

(If memory serves me well, at Viper Days, if you do both days, you will have done well to log 50 laps at Road America.)

However, with big HP comes big heat. And that is always a fundamental problem.

But, I'm all ears!

Tom

PS. Actually, the purpose of my post was to confuse and obfuscate! My purpose in life!
 

joe117

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I thought the supercharging of aircraft engines was to improve the engine output at high altitude. Thin air needed to be compressed to increase the service ceiling of the aircraft. Would a supercharged aircraft engine get big boost on takeoff at sea level? I don't know. I'm not a pilot but I think you have to monitor cylinder head temp when you ask an aircraft engine to do a lot of work.
I think the first use of nitrous oxide injection was for emergency boost power on German fighters in WW 2. Perhaps this is just a legend. I think it's true.
 

Tom and Vipers

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True, you lose 50% of your hp at 18k altitude.

You need a sc for high altitude performance.

However, they put the Wasp Major (28 cyl, 4 row radial) in the Corsair so it could go 400 mph at SL to kill Kamakazis.

The nitrous thing might be true - maybe even for allied fighters.

Tom
 

joe117

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Ah, the Wasp Major. Wasn't it 4160 cubic inch? A four bank seven radial with twenty eight cylinders? That engine in the Corsair with a thirteen foot prop, those were the days, the Viper of WW2. Wasn't a re engined B-29 with Wasp Majors called a B-50? Do any of you know why the Corsair had a gull wing?
Do any of you know that the eighteen cylinder, 3350 cubic inch, two bank, nine used first in the B-29, had not only a sc but a turbine that used exhaust gas to help turn the crank? Kids, what do they know?
 

onerareviper

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ACR Joe,

Here's an alternative to consider - Jason Heffner can get 550 RWHP from his head + cam packages. This is assuming you already have header/exhaust upgrade, which you do.... Not positive about the prices, but I would guess in the $7,000 - $8,000 range installed. Not quite as much HP as the SC packages, but 550 RWHP is nothing to sneeze at....

P.S. - Not sure about other required equipment, if any. Possible a radiator upgrade.
 
OP
OP
A

ACR Joe

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by onerareviper:
ACR Joe,

Here's an alternative to consider - Jason Heffner can get 550 RWHP from his head + cam packages. This is assuming you already have header/exhaust upgrade, which you do.... Not positive about the prices, but I would guess in the $7,000 - $8,000 range installed. Not quite as much HP as the SC packages, but 550 RWHP is nothing to sneeze at....

P.S. - Not sure about other required equipment, if any. Possible a radiator upgrade.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Having carefully pondered the alternatives, and all of the information contained in this thread (great stuff by the way), the heads/cam option would seem to be the best fit for me. Yoy're right 550 rwhp would be awesome. I guessing that would provide about an additional 100 rwhp vs. current output.

Thanks to all contributors for their valuable and objective input.
 

LTHL VPR

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With all of power that can be gained through parts going the naturally aspirated route, I wouldn't rule it out yet. Yes, the supercharger packages are generating some great power, but you can also see tremendous gains without going the forced induction route.

The last LETHAL 650 package we completed showed an improvement of 160+rwhp over stock. The car drives like a completely different Viper now! And this package uses a camshaft that passes the sniffer for emissions. If emissions is not a concern (which I assume it's not because a supercharger is obvious under the hood and none have carb exemptions), we can easily get you more power with a more aggressive camshaft profile. We have tried about 10 different custom-camshaft profiles in the Viper. We know which ones work and which can pass emissions.

Hope this helps!
-Wayne (LTHL VPR)
 

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