Motec M150 PNP kit

Junkie

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Saw earlier on John Reed's FB that they are in the testing phase of the M150 PNP kit for a GenIV.

http://johnreedracing.com/dodge-pnp-kits/08-10-dodge-viper-motec-m150-pnp-kit/

Pretty awesome imo! Wonder if this would give us the ability to run a big cam setup or if block provisions will still prevent that? Also opens up the door for power adder setups :) Big cam and 100 shot would be a 9 second car all day long imo.
 

TrackAire

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Plug and play is the key. Much of the cost of a Motec type system is paying somebody to hard wire it in. This really is a step in the right direction, hopefully we get a couple of these on NA cars and see what can be done with traditional NA tuning and mods.

FI is an obvious market, but a LOT of people want to go NA with the Gen 4 for track duty.

Cheers,
George
 

Viper Specialty

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I have been watching this coming for a while. It will certainly fill a portion of the market very well, as it is very powerful software and interface, as would be expected from Motec. The only thing I still have issue with is that none of the Motec ECU's including this one have internal coil drivers, and this makes the Viper application awkward, as you need external drivers, or to re-wire and run smart-coils. This adds a rather substantial slap to the price tag no matter how you slice it, from ~800-2000 depending on igniters or new coils being used.
 

MoparMap

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That's a similar issue with the new Hemis and Megasquirt setups. Not sure why Dodge keeps using the "dumb" coils, would be nice to see some logic level ones one of these days to make for easier control, though I'd imagine cost probably has something to do with it.
 

Viper Specialty

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Its a function of cost vs. robustness vs. possible future hassle.

Dumb coils and board mounted IGBT's are cheaper than smart coils or external IGBT's. However, Dumb Coils are also more robust, resistant to shock/damage/temperature, and easier to troubleshoot than Smart Coils or Externals. They also use less wire in the harness. The downside is that if an ignition failure occurs at the IGBT, it will require a PCM repair.

Smart coils are more expensive and more likely to fail when engine mounted. They also have a far weaker control signal and are more likely to experience issues from high interference, poor wiring and connector terminals, etc. That being said, more aftermarket and some OEM's support their use, and they are less likely to damage a PCM from a coil or wiring failure, though they can still cause PCM damage from voltage leakage if failed in certain instances.

Dumb + External is even more expensive, but both solves and creates problems by design. More wiring, more connections, more components, more mounting, more hassle, and more expense... but you have the advantages of "dumb" reliability with externally replaceable IGBT's in case of a failure.

All that said, all systems are equal when working properly. There is no performance advantage of one vs. another, they are all inductive coil setups generally, and CDI/inductive has its own plus/minus arguments. The only time anything comes into play is cost up front compared to hassle IF you have a failure.... but considering the number of board mounted IGBT setups on the road, and the number of failures- I wouldn't worry about it.
 

MoparMap

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Yeah, I took the easy way out and just bought an MSD box to run the coils on my 5.7 swap in my Dart. Part of that was also because I started with a carb setup, but it still saved a decent amount of headache when converting over to the Megasquirt fuel injection. It's a bit of a hassle to have to program two different computers, but for the most part I've just left the timing alone since that's more dangerous (in my mind at least) to mess with over fuel. I have a wideband to help keep AFR and fueling in check while tuning, the same can't be said of ignition timing, especially with the stock hemi pistons. The usual advice I hear is that once you hear detonation you're already too late due to the thin top ring landing.
 

JohnnyBravo

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So much for being able to tune a Gen IV with a $500 SCT handheld, a $500 VEC2 or 3 or even a $2500 AEM.

$9000 just to be able to "tune" a Gen IV? Ouch.
 
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Junkie

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So much for being able to tune a Gen IV with a $500 SCT handheld, a $500 VEC2 or 3 or even a $2500 AEM.

$9000 just to be able to "tune" a Gen IV? Ouch.

I wouldnt ever recommend this for someone that just wants a "tune". But if you are wanting to get into a cam setup, turbos, built motor with more CR, stuff like that. Then just the "tune" is a huge deal imo.

My Supra has a Motec, and people laugh all the time about it. "Why would you waste money on Motec when AEM/ProEFI/insert whatever here works just as good". Then a few months later there injectors are stuck, or car wont fire, or tune wont load, or the car drops he map mid pull, etc.... When investing BIG money into a build, I think investing BIG money into managing those parts is a great idea.
 

Viper Specialty

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I wouldnt ever recommend this for someone that just wants a "tune". But if you are wanting to get into a cam setup, turbos, built motor with more CR, stuff like that. Then just the "tune" is a huge deal imo.

My Supra has a Motec, and people laugh all the time about it. "Why would you waste money on Motec when AEM/ProEFI/insert whatever here works just as good". Then a few months later there injectors are stuck, or car wont fire, or tune wont load, or the car drops he map mid pull, etc.... When investing BIG money into a build, I think investing BIG money into managing those parts is a great idea.

What he said.

All I will say is please... oh please... don't jump the gun just yet :D
 

JohnnyBravo

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I wouldnt ever recommend this for someone that just wants a "tune". But if you are wanting to get into a cam setup, turbos, built motor with more CR, stuff like that. Then just the "tune" is a huge deal imo.

My Supra has a Motec, and people laugh all the time about it. "Why would you waste money on Motec when AEM/ProEFI/insert whatever here works just as good". Then a few months later there injectors are stuck, or car wont fire, or tune wont load, or the car drops he map mid pull, etc.... When investing BIG money into a build, I think investing BIG money into managing those parts is a great idea.

And I don't disagree that if you're doing a BIG build that you shouldn't skimp on engine management. If you're already throwing $40k at a built motor, head/cam, twin turbos, etc, etc., then maybe another $9k isn't a big deal. However, there is no "budget" tuning device for those just wanting to do ported heads/ported intake or just a blower and headers, or even just headers and exhaust. There shouldn't be a $9000 or nothing gap in engine management. The SCT (or VEC2 for Gen 2 guys) was perfect for those wanting some simple bolt-ons and the ability to tune.
 
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Junkie

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And I don't disagree that if you're doing a BIG build that you shouldn't skimp on engine management. If you're already throwing $40k at a built motor, head/cam, twin turbos, etc, etc., then maybe another $9k isn't a big deal. However, there is no "budget" tuning device for those just wanting to do ported heads/ported intake or just a blower and headers, or even just headers and exhaust. There shouldn't be a $9000 or nothing gap in engine management. The SCT (or VEC2 for Gen 2 guys) was perfect for those wanting some simple bolt-ons and the ability to tune.

I agree, but thats not the case here and hasnt been the case since the Gen4 showed up. John Reed is nearly done with the Motec PNP, Then it seems like the Viper Specialty guy is trying to hit a half way point between stock and there. Other then that, customers are SOL. Time to accept and move on :)

If someone will give me a good tuning solution at sub 5k that will give me the ability to spray the car or run a big cam setup, ill jump on that as well!
 

MoparMap

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I'm curious why they couldn't make a VEC style setup for the Gen 4. Since it's mostly just a signal interceptor/modifier I'd think you could could potentially get around the OBD issues. As long as the computer thinks that it's doing stuff and seeing the results of the changes it seems like it should work.
 

Viper Specialty

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I'm curious why they couldn't make a VEC style setup for the Gen 4. Since it's mostly just a signal interceptor/modifier I'd think you could could potentially get around the OBD issues. As long as the computer thinks that it's doing stuff and seeing the results of the changes it seems like it should work.


I answered this in another thread already by chance;

It will not work in an application like this. The crank and cam triggers are far more complex than most of those types of units would be able to handle, and that is just the start. The crank and cam trigger edges, which would be utilized to offset the ignition timing control, are also used for positioning of the variable camshaft. If you alter the ignition timing externally, you will also alter the latch offset angles for the cam control by default. This will lead to cam positioning errors. Fuel could probably be done this way, but it would be very limited in capability before it triggered a fault. All in all, its a lot of hassle for virtually no control.
 
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Junkie

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Personally, I don't see the point in complaining about the lack of tuning. People are making progress, John Reed, Viper Specialty, Phastek, etc... All great avenues for us, no need to complain about the lack of a budget tuning solution.
 

MoparMap

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I answered this in another thread already by chance;

It will not work in an application like this. The crank and cam triggers are far more complex than most of those types of units would be able to handle, and that is just the start. The crank and cam trigger edges, which would be utilized to offset the ignition timing control, are also used for positioning of the variable camshaft. If you alter the ignition timing externally, you will also alter the latch offset angles for the cam control by default. This will lead to cam positioning errors. Fuel could probably be done this way, but it would be very limited in capability before it triggered a fault. All in all, its a lot of hassle for virtually no control.

I caught that over in the other thread as well. Didn't really think about the timing and VVT issues. I was thinking of the Power Commander my dad had on a Harley a while back. Basically just apply some "offset" value to the fuel and spark outputs while trying to keep the inputs into the computer the same. Forgot that trigger wheels and stuff make that quite a bit harder than just points or a single tooth cam wheel, lol.
 

SRT09

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be interesting I know a very well known company working with the AEM Infinity on a Gen 4 also :)
 

John Reed

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Yes, testing is in progress. So far so good, and what is shown on my website is the unit I built up for beta testing but done to final spec type quality. It is also somewhat based on my previous kit using the MoTeC M800 for the Gen4, which was substantially more expensive than the M150 kit. This will never likely be a viable choice for guys with minor bolt-on modifications, unless there are other features it has that they are interested in. Traction control, different throttle maps (on the fly), lap timing, GPS track mapping, lots of sensors for data/engine monitoring, etc. A system like this has a lot of power. The value to you will ultimately depend on your goals with the car.

Along with testing functionality, base map development, and all the normal stuff I am also looking at doing a full ECU replacement with the M150 (no more piggyback). The plus side to this would be a pretty good size drop in price (building a really nice, high quality lay-over PNP harness is quite a bit more labor than a simple jumper adapter). No promises on time line. I am very picky, and won't turn it loose till I feel it is as perfect as I can make it (which I why I stopped messing with some other ECU platforms on the cars).

At the moment progress has slowed a bit, due to no test car near me. So if anyone has a Gen4 Viper near Portland, OR that is sitting around bored this winter, shoot me an email. I don't have riches and glory to offer for helping, but maybe some dyno time, discounted product, etc.

[email protected]
 

Dan Cragin

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There are many engine management choices for the Gen 4-5 currently, depending on the application. We have used AEM INFINITY and PECTEL, mostly for Motorsports applications.

Two companies are currently testing software to tune the factory Venom controller, expect to see this soon. For the normally aspirated crowd, who need to remain fairly emission compliant, this would be the choice. Cam changes and light flywheels would be easily integrated.
 

Viper Specialty

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2014 is shaping up to be a **** of a year for the Gen-4 guys. We will be doing our part to make sure of that, and if everyone else comes through on their options as well, its going to be a very different market in 12 months time. "Options" and "Gen-4" were never seen in the same sentence until now!
 

TrackAire

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2014 is shaping up to be a **** of a year for the Gen-4 guys. We will be doing our part to make sure of that, and if everyone else comes through on their options as well, its going to be a very different market in 12 months time. "Options" and "Gen-4" were never seen in the same sentence until now!

Finally!!

Can't wait to see what options are going to be available for us. Just realized that this might just make the Gen 4 value and market pricing go up :2tu:

George
 

SRT09

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There are many engine management choices for the Gen 4-5 currently, depending on the application. We have used AEM INFINITY and PECTEL, mostly for Motorsports applications.

Two companies are currently testing software to tune the factory Venom controller, expect to see this soon. For the normally aspirated crowd, who need to remain fairly emission compliant, this would be the choice. Cam changes and light flywheels would be easily integrated.

More info on the Venom controller?
 
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