Need o2 Sims.......Damn !

[wormdoggy]

Alright...........

for those of you that have read my posts, I installed the belanger header and exhaust combo. Great exhaust system and I would purchase it over and over again............however, I am having a serious problem with the 02 sensors failing. The check engine light came on again last night and although I have not removed the side sills I would suspect that the o2 sensor cable is burnt. Simply because I can't get into reverse.

But what really freaks me out is that I wrapped the sensors in header heat shield tape , wire boot socks and finally refractory sheilding . MORE then enough to withstand the heat..............???????

Anyway, I am now going to the option of 02 sims. Can someone please explain to me how these simulators work?. My concern is that if the cats fail , you will have no way of knowing the failure unless of course the secondary 02 sims are worthless and really have no use whatsoever...........??? Are the 02 sims reliable? Are they an easy install? I would prefer to purchase the direct bolt on system and not have to cut any wires.

I would really like to hear from those who have hade it installed on their car!!

Thanks for your comments.

Patrick

 

[Racer Robbie]

Hi Wormdoggy,

My customer "Yelloh", Rick D. has the same setup on his 2005 yellow viper and has not had any problems with his O2 sensors or the wiring. I had his side panels off last week in my shop and his was in perfect shape. He even races the car. I do not think you need to wrap the sensor itself but just the wiring. You may be holding to much heat in the sensor, just a guess. On Rick's car only the wiring is heat wrapped.

As for sims here is a web site that makes them.

http://www.o2sensorsimulator.com/


Robbie

 

[wormdoggy]

Hi Wormdoggy,

My customer "Yelloh", Rick D. has the same setup on his 2005 yellow viper and has not had any problems with his O2 sensors or the wiring. I had his side panels off last week in my shop and his was in perfect shape. He even races the car. I do not think you need to wrap the sensor itself but just the wiring. You may be holding to much heat in the sensor, just a guess. On Rick's car only the wiring is heat wrapped.

As for sims here is a web site that makes them.

http://www.o2sensorsimulator.com/


Robbie

Hmmmmmmmm..................now I am confused. I wrapped the entire wiring and the sensor paying special attention to the point of contact where the wiring and sensor meet. I will take the sills off this weekend and inspect them.

I'm just wondering if the sensor is just over heating and melting the wire under the header wrap. Like you said.... , maybe the sensor is just holding too much heat???

Thanks again.
Patrick

 

[wormdoggy]

I just looked at the 02 sims that Racer Robbie linked me too and I don;t think they will work.

I have been having wire melting at the point where the 02 sensor meets the wiring. I don;t know why but on both situations the wiring has been melting there. The 02 sims shown are downstream of the secondary 02 sensor wiring. Well if the wiring from the 02 sensor is getting fried, how can the 02 sims work properly? This application assumes the wiring on the secondary sensors is OK.


I thought the correct application would call for plugging the seconday 02 sensors holes , removing the secondary 02 sensors completely and connecting the 02 sims to the primary 02 sensors harness.


Thanks
Patrick

 

[zorroespanol]

Patrick it is my guess that the O2 sensors failing are the upstream ones??? You cannot replace those with the sims... Sims are only to prevent idiot light from coming on when the cats are removed.

Cheers...

 

[Racer Robbie]

Thanks Patrick. I think you have hit the nail on the head as to being to much heat at the sensor. Remember the sensor looks like a spark plug as far as how it is made where it threads in. I do not know for sure, as I have never taken one apart, but my guess is that they are insulated just like a spark plug inside the hex threaded part.

As far as the sims are concerned, I know very little about them, thus I have no comment on them. Someone gave me that web site and it had some interesting information on it.

I would get a complete new set of O2 sensors, install them, and just heat wrap only the wires and not the sensors.Before you install them I would disconnect the battery so as to clear any hidden code and also to clear the ECM's memory. JUST MAKE SURE YOU HAVE YOUR KEY IN HAND BEFORE YOU RECONNECT THE BATTERY.

Here is the proper way to start up a viper after disconnecting/reconnecting the battery.

Have your key in your hand and disconnect the battery. Wait a minute and then reconnectthe battery. The car will go into theft mode and lock down. USE YOUR KEY TO UNLOCK THE DOOR USING THE KEY HOLE UNDER THE DRIVERS DOOR. When the door pops open get into the car and do not touch anything, not even the clutch. Put the key into the ignition and turn it to the on position, DO NOT START THE CAR. After the car cycles thru all the lights will stay lite and the cd player will stop making noises, this ay take a couple of minutes. Turn off the key. Start the car as normal and you should be ok.

Pat, I hope this helps you out,

Robbie

 

[wormdoggy]

Thanks Patrick. I think you have hit the nail on the head as to being to much heat at the sensor. Remember the sensor looks like a spark plug as far as how it is made where it threads in. I do not know for sure, as I have never taken one apart, but my guess is that they are insulated just like a spark plug inside the hex threaded part.

As far as the sims are concerned, I know very little about them, thus I have no comment on them. Someone gave me that web site and it had some interesting information on it.

I would get a complete new set of O2 sensors, install them, and just heat wrap only the wires and not the sensors.Before you install them I would disconnect the battery so as to clear any hidden code and also to clear the ECM's memory. JUST MAKE SURE YOU HAVE YOUR KEY IN HAND BEFORE YOU RECONNECT THE BATTERY.

Here is the proper way to start up a viper after disconnecting/reconnecting the battery.

Have your key in your hand and disconnect the battery. Wait a minute and then reconnectthe battery. The car will go into theft mode and lock down. USE YOUR KEY TO UNLOCK THE DOOR USING THE KEY HOLE UNDER THE DRIVERS DOOR. When the door pops open get into the car and do not touch anything, not even the clutch. Put the key into the ignition and turn it to the on position, DO NOT START THE CAR. After the car cycles thru all the lights will stay lite and the cd player will stop making noises, this ay take a couple of minutes. Turn off the key. Start the car as normal and you should be ok.

Pat, I hope this helps you out,

Robbie

Robbie, thanks for your help. I will remove the sills this weekend and try to find out what happened. Failing eveything else I might just have to switch to an alternative exhaust system.

Thanks
Patrick

 

[wormdoggy]

Alright............so this is the deal.

I removed the sills and inspected the 02 sensors. I had refractory tape on the wiring, header tape over that and over the 02 sensor and finally and refractory shield with velcro over all of that. Well guess what.............FRIED!!!! The velcro sheilding was crisp and burnt . The wiring below that was ok but the wiring where it enters the 02 sensors were fried just as I suspected. Its as if it baked underneath all that header tape.

I just really think its a flaw design in the belanger system. No disrespect, but there is no way you can prevent the 02 sensors wiring from melting because of its location and very close proximity to the shielding.

Anyway.............I have had it and am now thinking of installing the high flow cats and corsa.

Can anyone tell me if there are any install issues with the high flow cats onto the belanger headers???

Thanks for your help.

 

[zorroespanol]

Wormdoggy, I tried to help but you ignored the question... I may be brief but to the point.

What O2 sensors are you having trouble with??

 

[ILLSMOQ]

the one that goes into the header or the one that goes around the bend?

 

[wormdoggy]

Wormdoggy, I tried to help but you ignored the question... I may be brief but to the point.

What O2 sensors are you having trouble with??

Secondary sensors............Not the ones that are on the headers but the ones located after the cats.

Here's a picture..........

AND THIS IS HOW THEY WERE WRAPPED ( DOUBLE LAYERS ) PRIOR TO THE PROBLEM.

Notice the position located right under the heat sheild. I've wrapped them over and over again and they just seem to get fried. The wiring loops under and the shield and then wraps around the shield to connect to the primary 02 harness. The problem is not in the wiring but in both cases the wiring was burnt within the 02 sensor. Again please notice the picture. Its as if the heat is being trapped under the sheilding ( which is what it is meant to do ) and burning the wiring at contact to the sensor.

Other systems ( corsa with high flows ) have the 02 sensors positioned similar to the stock set-up.


Thanks

Patrick

 

[zorroespanol]

Doggy...

I see what you are saying, I've never seen anything like it!

We can start debating a million things here, but being the downstream O2 sensors, I'd just replace them with simulators and voila! Problem solved.

You cut the wires from the O2 sensors and run them to the sims, which of course should be placed far and away from the heat.

Cheers mate.

 

[ILLSMOQ]

Zorro what sims are you using? I tried the expensive plug and play Casper set and they cause a p1719 (skip shift solenoid open or short) code. They fool the computer on the o2's just fine...but the light comes on so they are worthless just the same.

I Put the o2 sensors back on and clear the code - everything is fine.

As soon as I try the sims again, that 1719 pops up as soon as the key is turned on.


I know a few people are using sims with no problems...Maybe I got a bad set or maybe it's just my car that doesn't like them.

 

[wormdoggy]

Doggy...

I see what you are saying, I've never seen anything like it!

We can start debating a million things here, but being the downstream O2 sensors, I'd just replace them with simulators and voila! Problem solved.

You cut the wires from the O2 sensors and run them to the sims, which of course should be placed far and away from the heat.

Cheers mate.

And there's the problem. If the wires are currently burning where the enter the 02 sensor stock, there won;t be any wire to cut to adapt to the 02 sims.
There's gotta be a 02 sim on the market that hooks directly to the primary 02 sensor harness. Plug the hole where the seconday o2 sensors used to be and it should work.

I NEED TO GET THE WIRING AWAY FROM UNDERNEATH THE SHIELD.

Patrick

 

[ILLSMOQ]

Worm, is the top of the sensor pinched when the side sill goes back on? Or are the wires actually melted together?

 

[wormdoggy]

Re: Need o2 Sims.......Damn !

Worm, is the top of the sensor pinched when the side sill goes back on? Or are the wires actually melted together?

Wire shielding is melted where they enter the 02 sensor. There must be a lot of heat below the sill shield............WOW. !!!

Like I said I can;t think of anything else other than to just replace the exhaust and cats. Its frustrating since I spent a lot of money on this system !!!!

Patrick

 

[Racer Robbie]

Re: Need o2 Sims.......Damn !

Wormdoggy, I would also cut back that insulation where it folds over the sensor, and again, do not heat wrap the sensor.

 

[ILLSMOQ]

And there's the problem. If the wires are currently burning where the enter the 02 sensor stock, there won;t be any wire to cut to adapt to the 02 sims.
There's gotta be a 02 sim on the market that hooks directly to the primary 02 sensor harness. Plug the hole where the seconday o2 sensors used to be and it should work.

I NEED TO GET THE WIRING AWAY FROM UNDERNEATH THE SHIELD.

Patrick

When you run a sim it doesn't have to go near the exhaust.

The sims I got from parts rack plug in where the secondary o2 sensor pluged in...they just don't work right.

The other sims out there require splicing, they still don't need to be near the exhaust.

The secondary o2 connecter is just on top of the frame rail near the trans bell housing....You can put the sims anywhere. As for the hole in the pipe find some sort of plug or have it welded shut.

 

[zorroespanol]

DOGGY...

I do not undrestand what the problem is.

-Leave your current O2 sensor where it is.

-Go back on the wire as far up as you need to (to find healthy wire) and just splice the O2 sims in there.

-Then just put them away from the heat.


I get the idea you may be mistaken in thinking that the sims go right in place of the O2 sensor.. No!! again, leave the sensors there (or weld the hole shut) and put the sims anywhere you want!! Hell, you can get a wire extension and sit them right next to you with a cooler and a budweiser, to make sure they are cool enough!!!

 

[wormdoggy]

Re: Need o2 Sims.......Damn !

DOGGY...

I do not undrestand what the problem is.

-Leave your current O2 sensor where it is.

-Go back on the wire as far up as you need to (to find healthy wire) and just splice the O2 sims in there.

-Then just put them away from the heat.


I get the idea you may be mistaken in thinking that the sims go right in place of the O2 sensor.. No!! again, leave the sensors there (or weld the hole shut) and put the sims anywhere you want!! Hell, you can get a wire extension and sit them right next to you with a cooler and a budweiser, to make sure they are cool enough!!!

Okkkkkkkkk...........now I think I got the message. !!!!!!

You must be registered for see images

If what you are saying is correct, I can cut the wire just before the primary harness is or where the secondary 02 sensor connects to the primary sensor. If thats the case it should work fine. I thought I needed to cut the wiring right near to the secondary 02 sensor. THAT WILL WORK FINE !!!

[******]..........you guys just saved me a shitful of money.

I don;t like the idea of my secondary sensors not working though........Oh well! Will this cause any future issues other than the fact that if the cats go bunkers the system won;t read it..........

THANKS A LOT GUYS!!!

Patrick

 

[zorroespanol]

Re: Need o2 Sims.......Damn !

DOGGY...

I do not undrestand what the problem is.

-Leave your current O2 sensor where it is.

-Go back on the wire as far up as you need to (to find healthy wire) and just splice the O2 sims in there.

-Then just put them away from the heat.


I get the idea you may be mistaken in thinking that the sims go right in place of the O2 sensor.. No!! again, leave the sensors there (or weld the hole shut) and put the sims anywhere you want!! Hell, you can get a wire extension and sit them right next to you with a cooler and a budweiser, to make sure they are cool enough!!!

Okkkkkkkkk...........now I think I got the message. !!!!!!

You must be registered for see images

If what you are saying is correct, I can cut the wire just before the primary harness is or where the secondary 02 sensor connects to the primary sensor. If thats the case it should work fine. I thought I needed to cut the wiring right near to the secondary 02 sensor. THAT WILL WORK FINE !!!

[******]..........you guys just saved me a shitful of money.

I don;t like the idea of my secondary sensors not working though........Oh well! Will this cause any future issues other than the fact that if the cats go bunkers the system won;t read it..........

THANKS A LOT GUYS!!!

Patrick

Glad to be of help!

You are right that if the 2nd cats fail there is no sensor to report it, that's what it's there for.

Cheers!

 

[zorroespanol]

Zorro what sims are you using? I tried the expensive plug and play Casper set and they cause a p1719 (skip shift solenoid open or short) code. They fool the computer on the o2's just fine...but the light comes on so they are worthless just the same.

I Put the o2 sensors back on and clear the code - everything is fine.

As soon as I try the sims again, that 1719 pops up as soon as the key is turned on.


I know a few people are using sims with no problems...Maybe I got a bad set or maybe it's just my car that doesn't like them.

Sorry I missed your question!

I use the ones from the dude in Tampa that also has superchargers,(Roe?)
But I do get a check engine light every once in a while (code PO138) that disappears by itself after 10 minutes. this happens about once a month.

I also think that I got robbed, paid like $ 150 for both and from what I hear (makes sense) they are all the same crap. some on the web go for $20/pop.

 

[ILLSMOQ]

Hey Worm, I can send you the sims I bought from parts rack if you want to try them out...they don't work on my car but maybe they'll work for you....let me know.


Zorro thanks - I just ended up reconnecting the sensors and have them sitting in the open air. So far no codes, figured I'd get a low o2 signal code or something like that but nope...LOL cool.

I did order that cheapy sim from the link above but I think I'll just leave the sensors the way they are until a code pops up...kinda ghetto but it's working.

 

[zorroespanol]

Hey Worm, I can send you the sims I bought from parts rack if you want to try them out...they don't work on my car but maybe they'll work for you....let me know.


Zorro thanks - I just ended up reconnecting the sensors and have them sitting in the open air. So far no codes, figured I'd get a low o2 signal code or something like that but nope...LOL cool.

I did order that cheapy sim from the link above but I think I'll just leave the sensors the way they are until a code pops up...kinda ghetto but it's working.

You are talking to the king of ghetto rigs here!! from using chewing gum as electrical insulation, to using air conditioning ducting to make Ram-Air in my old Z28 (ran it from the bottom air dam)... so if it works, use it!!