Need some helpful advise on headers

Tom Welch

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Tommiriviper,

Are you "Supercharged" by Levin? If so I can't believe you'd even be concerned if I was running "the Works"......my whole
$ 6000.00 worth of upgrades.

Bring everything that you have to offer up to the clocks, if for no other reason, to make a few good runs.

Tom
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Sean Roe

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Welch:

I suggest the following:

The southesast mini VOI is in July and Id like to challenge anyone with a borla header and exhaust to the clocks at gainesville raceways drag strip! All I will have is headers and exhaust....no smooth tubes, intakes etc. Sean, you can even run all of the computer gadgets in your inventory.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey Tom,

I was just going by your suggestion. It was your idea and challenge, not mine. I'm simply accepting.

You choose the tires. If you don't mind, we'll run yours on my car afterward so that there's no tire difference. I know in road racing, tires can make a big difference and would assume drag racing to be the same.
 

Tom Welch

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Sean,

You are welcome to try my wheels and tires. My post about your modifications was worded "computer gadgets", not lightweight flywheels and the such. Also, I know that you have performed other mods as well......but thats ok, Im always up for a challenge! Just keep in mind the facts:

1. A borla exhaust alone will not outperform a Belanger exhaust alone. Period. Its been proven in dyno tests time and again.


2. My car has NO mods other than the headers and exhaust.(we won't use nitrous for our comparision)

Exhaust systems aside our two cars in stock trim should be about equal in power(96-97 vipers all made between 402-411 rwhp in the hundreds of dyno tests that we have either seen in person or read results of on this board), unless you have additional mods......do you care to come clean on this forum?


Let me know if there is anything else that I can help you with.

Tom
Http://btrviper.com
 
OP
OP
Sniper

Sniper

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In Sean's defense, the way I look at this is as follows:

1) Sean's exhaust kit(Borla's) costs $2150.00.

2) It is made of stainless steel T-304, won't rust.

3) Other exhaust kits won't touch this cost, maybe the
durability.

4) A difference of 8-10 horsepower on paper is just that.
On the strip it would not account for better time.

I've looked for an exhaust system for a long time and
I personally think most systems out there are way too
high in price and just because it is a Viper seems to be
alot of the reasoning.

Sean's system and price are bar-none one of the best I
have found out there.

Keep up the good work Sean!

PS: Used to drag sport bikes couple years back. Had 900CBR
and nobody in town could touch me-even the fastest bike
out at the time, ZX-11. Even rode my friends 600CBR and
could smoke bikes up to 750's. 10 H.P. wouldn't beat me.
Alot of the strip is up to the driver.
Just now getting into running the car!
 

Steve 00RT/10

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As regards T-304 stainless: I did a little research on stainless classifications. T-304 without the "L" designation is not a top grade of stainless. L means 'extra low carbon content.
I work with people who install all grades of stainless piping&tubing daily. The best grades are 316L&317L. I was told that some T-304 stainless, if scratched, will just about hold a magnet. Low grade stainless steel can also become brittle, crystalize, and crack. My muffler shop has seen this on more than one occasion

Steve
 

TomMiriViper

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Welch:
Tommiriviper,

Are you "Supercharged" by Levin? If so I can't believe you'd even be concerned if I was running "the Works"......my whole
$ 6000.00 worth of upgrades.

Bring everything that you have to offer up to the clocks, if for no other reason, to make a few good runs.

Tom
Http://btrviper.com

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Excuse me Tom!
I said nothing about my car. I just thought it would be nice to see you race your car for comparison, as YOU stated, not me. I was asking if you were going to run with any other mods or just exhaust? You were the one who brought up the issue of a race comparison.
And yes I do have Levin Supercharged Viper. I'm on my second one and wouldn't trade it for anything else on the market!

TomMiriViper
 

Sean Roe

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Welch:
Sean,

You are welcome to try my wheels and tires. My post about your modifications was worded "computer gadgets", not lightweight flywheels and the such. Also, I know that you have performed other mods as well......but thats ok, Im always up for a challenge! Just keep in mind the facts:

1. A borla exhaust alone will not outperform a Belanger exhaust alone. Period. Its been proven in dyno tests time and again.


2. My car has NO mods other than the headers and exhaust.(we won't use nitrous for our comparision)

Exhaust systems aside our two cars in stock trim should be about equal in power(96-97 vipers all made between 402-411 rwhp in the hundreds of dyno tests that we have either seen in person or read results of on this board), unless you have additional mods......do you care to come clean on this forum?


Let me know if there is anything else that I can help you with.

Tom
Http://btrviper.com

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Hey Tom,

No dispute about the Balenger headers making some more power than the Borla's. Our '94 RT/10 is the one that had the bad head gaskets and was rebuilt. We've never had any trouble with the GTS.

As far as mods on the GTS, OK, I'll "come clean". I have: race brakes, 14" rotors, Delrin bushings, fan kit, clutch lowering link, stiffer springs, race prepped Koni shocks, front duct kit, air deflectors, adjustable rear wing, it's lowered, silicone radiator hoses, carbon fiber dash kit, short throw factory modified shifter, MGW shift knob, underhood light kit, chrome fire extinguisher, Porsche brake ducts front and rear, stock airbox with rain baffle removed, Xenon HID headlights, Purner 18"X12" front wheels, Purner 17"X13" rear wheels, larger power steering cooler, prototype product pre-lube / Accusump system, prototype product automatic climate control system with reconfigured air ducting and of course S&B high flow air filters, silicone intake tubes, aluminum flywheel, Viper Engine calibrator, Borla 17113 headers, high flow 3" cats, Borla cat back system and a second set of Borla mufflers at the back. She makes 452 rear wheel HP and 490 ft lbs torque and is an absolute blast to drive on the street and track
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Of course I have tested some other components on the car, but this is its current and best configuration. The valve covers have never been off and it made a mild 395 rear wheel HP when stock before our bolt on's.

If you want to make it a fair test, I'll find some other HP modifications that cost $500 so that my HP mods cost the same as your exhaust. Borla headers, high flow cats, Borla cat-back, aluminum flywheel, high flow air filters, smooth tubes and VEC1 = $3,500. Balenger headers and cat-back = $3,999 .
 

Tom Welch

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Wow!!!!

Isn't all this smack talkin fun?

Ill be there(hopefully if My flight schedule doesn't change)just as I was at VOI with a 40' trailer loaded with parts and tools ready to help anyone with their needs.

Sean, you are welcome to try my tires and wheels. You forgot to mention the type of wax on your car! Anyone who wants to race, just look me up. I am always easy to find and ready for anything.

Lets let the clocks tell the story.

BTW, there will be a few Hitters there that are considerably faster than I am. I look forward to seeing them run.

Tom
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Sean Roe

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dan Cragin:
I have installed every header on the market and have dynoed almost all of them. If you want a non-sales biased opinion. Feel free to call me.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Dan,

I hope you are not implying that Tom or I are giving biased opinions regarding the exhaust. Tom and I are both VCA members and avid performance enthusiasts. As far as I have seen, the Balengers do make a some more power than other brands of headers, though I have not dyno tested them all either. Even if I were not a Borla distributor, I'd still gladly talk about differences in header materials and give my opinions on the cost issues and think Tom would do the same.

Instead of having people contact you directly and taking up time in your day, I encourage you to write up what you would say about your exhaust experiences and post it here. It would save you some time and get the information on performance, fit, durability and price to far more people. As this thread is titled "Need some helpful advice on headers", your input would be well suited in this thread.

P.S.
Tom,
To keep the test as controlled as possible, after you do the run(s) in your car, we'll put your tires on mine and you can do the drag runs in it as well. That way there'll be no differences in driver launching technique, tires, etc. and both cars should have the same 60' time. Any significant HP difference would show up at the end in trap speed.
 

Tom Welch

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Dan,

Yea, lets see the results. Do you have them on the CDI Header?? Im always interested in seeing whats available. Believe me if something works better than what I have, I will become a spokesperson to the VCA community about that product(not to mention want it on my own car!!LOL).

Sean,

Id feel privilaged to drive your car, and my "all go" attitude will not allow me to run yours any different than I do my own. Count on it! As a matter of fact, I welcome yourself or any others to drive mine as Id like to get some video of it racing.

BTW, there will be a few other BTR customers there who run the exact combinations that I have, so we can even go further with these comparisions....sounds like a great event.

Tom
Http://btrviper.com
 

Kid97GTS

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Having Tom run both cars with the same wheel/tire setup sounds like the best idea to get a true comparo (it would be even better if we could blindfold Tom on his runs so he wouldn't know which car he was running, but that might not get past tech inspection). Regardless, the final word won't necessarily be ET since the price difference between the Borla and Belanger headers along with powerband differences will let a given consumer weigh which product is best for their uses. LETS GET IT ON!
 

KenricGTS

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I have Tom Welch's BTR Balanger headers and cat back on my '96 GTS also have carbon fiber airbox HMS (John I still need bolt kit). My cars rear wheel HP on the DYNOJET is 452 and 512 Torque with stock computer. I have the Mopar and I took it off I think I lost HP. I have a question, would bigger throtle bodies help or loose HP? Also would it be worth it to add roller rockers? Thanks, Kenric
 

treynor

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The usual rule O thumb is that a larger TB would hurt throttle response and probably not pick up any HP. Roller rockers are typically good for 5-10HP.

Did you happen to dyno your car when it was stock, so you can tell how much power was gained with your mods?
 

KenricGTS

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At the time I installed the headers and exhaust they had not installed the state of the art DYNOJET yet in NM. I wish I had dynoed the car stock but, there was no dyno to test the car. I do know I made a little more HP than a guy with SVS headers and 15 more pounds of foot torque to the rear wheels. Then a guy that had polished and ported heads, extruded honed intake, custom ground cam, roller rockers, and headers and airbox goodies put us all to shame. He layed down 515hp and 525 torque to the rear wheels!(Gen 2 '97 GTS gold package) Funny thing is from a roll I was pulling him with my stock except exhaust GTS. Maybe at that time the car was not running right. He made way more HP than my car.

Nice collection! Buy a 911 GT2 and invite me over! Kenric
 

Chuck 98 RT/10

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sean Roe:
Ok Tom,

I'll have to get Chuck B. or Phil Simms to drag race my car. I'm a road racer and would be at a huge disadvantage leaving from a standing start.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm IN!!!!

Hey Tom, disconnect that Nitro!!!
 

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