New PS2 but old DOT ?

[TI3VOM]

The problem is if we decide not to buy these tires and they have to make NEW tires then watch the price go up and watch the shortage of tires go up! Then we will have a thread on here complaining about the shortage of tires and the price! Vendors will reply to the thread saying they can not stock as many sets of tires because they do not want to get stuck with tires that are older than one year... Or that the manufacture is only willing to produce so many tires...

True and I agree, just let me know ahead of time (before I purchase) exactly what I am getting and I will be good to go.

 

[Slithr]

You guys can keep arguing semantics but the bottom line is these are not NEW tires they are 3 years old...Point and case I ordered NEW tires I was NOT told they were 3 years old...Will they work YES!....Do I want to lay down and accept the fact that the company I bought them from thinks that this is not important information to denote NO! Are these 3 yr old tires 100% NO, are they close YES but that doesn't matter to me its principle.

I too, ordered new Kumho's from a site supporting vendor in Dec. of 10', to replace my original 03' run flat's (glad I was still alive to do so). I'd have to say that when I had them mounted in Feb. 11', I was a little surprised to see 42-08 mfg. dates, as I too thought I was buying "new" tires. I confidently trust the opinions of the vendor I purchased from, and have to say the tires are a 100% improvement ...... but not 100% new. I still have no regrets, but full disclosure is always better than partial, at least I would have had the chance to shop around, or to have asked for a 4% discount, before paying.

 

[ViperTony]

You guys can keep arguing semantics but the bottom line is these are not NEW tires they are 3 years old...Point and case I ordered NEW tires I was NOT told they were 3 years old...Will they work YES!....Do I want to lay down and accept the fact that the company I bought them from thinks that this is not important information to denote NO! Are these 3 yr old tires 100% NO, are they close YES but that doesn't matter to me its principle.

New Unused Old Stock may be the better description. Full disclosure makes sense...be upfront about it, after all, the date code is stamped on the tire.

 

[TI3VOM]

New Unused Old Stock may be the better description. Full disclosure makes sense...be upfront about it, after all, the date code is stamped on the tire.

Well put, perfect description.

 

[JonB]

First off, I realize [and pointed out] the 'principle' of the discussion. A given.

Back to the real world: NO vendor is likely going to ask their staff to search for the freshest dates among dozens of tires in several warehouses, just to accomodate an irrelevant premise. The tires are racked, First In, First Out, in every tire warehouse. Larger racks are fully automated.

Nit-picking to get fresh for fresh sake? If it was bread, or lettuce, OK! What if 1 newer tire is in Reno, and 1 in Delaware....who would pay an extra $30 in shipping to receive a 4-6 month newer tire? NOBODY! Why waste the labor-time looking? It is a baseless argument according to the experts.

I just had a large carport built....6x6 posts. 12 of em. On principle, I know that if the wood was newer it would last longer, but DAMN: The posts they delivered were almost 3 years old. In principle, I got shorted. I wanted NEW wood. In practice, it does not matter.

Real World # 2: No tire seller is likley to even KNOW the various studies that show 2% aging per YEAR of proper storage. Luke just posted another that says "no measurable loss" after 3-4 years! So, would you really ask for a 2%-4% discount ? If manufacturers and vendors allowed that, some would hunt for 3-year old tires, knowing it DOES NOT MATTER, in hopes of saving 6% !

 

[Garron]

I would have had the chance to shop around, or to have asked for a 4% discount, before paying.

No tire manufacturer will offer a discount for an older date coded tire. So you are suggesting all venders and dealers should lose profits if they are shipped tire that does not have a recent date code?

Keep in mind, we don't know what date of tire we are getting until it shows up and they really don't like to take them back.

 

[Slithr]

First off, I realize and pointed out the 'principle' of the discussion. A given.

Back to the real world: NO vendor is likely going to ask their staff to search for the freshest dates among dozens of tires in several warehouses, just to accomodate an irrelevant premise. The tires are racked, First In, First Out, in every tire warehouse. Larger racks are fully automated.

Nit-picking to get fresh for fresh sake? If it was bread, or lettuce, OK! What if 1 newer tire is in Reno, and 1 in Delaware....who would pay an extra $30 in shipping to receive a 4-6 month newer tire? NOBODY! Why waste the labor-time looking? It is a baseless argument according to the experts.

I just had a large 2-car carport built....6x6 posts. I know that if the wood was newer it would last longer, but DAMN: The posts they delivered were almost 3 years old. In principle, I got shorted. I wanted NEW wood. In practice, it does not matter.

Point Taken As stated, "I confidently trust the opinions of the vendor I purchased from". Therefore, I'm 'personally' not concerned with the difference in a 96% or 100% "new" tire. Nor, do I have the time, or does it make the economic sense, for me to shop in Delaware or Alaska. But, I'd liked to have to known that my new 'lumber' was a couple years 'on the shelf'. Maybe, it's my ignorance of tires, or high performance cars .... but, I'll always lean towards full disclosure and education, through the purchasing process

 

[TI3VOM]

First off, I realize [and pointed out] the 'principle' of the discussion. A given.

Back to the real world: NO vendor is likely going to ask their staff to search for the freshest dates among dozens of tires in several warehouses, just to accomodate an irrelevant premise. The tires are racked, First In, First Out, in every tire warehouse. Larger racks are fully automated.

Nit-picking to get fresh for fresh sake? If it was bread, or lettuce, OK! What if 1 newer tire is in Reno, and 1 in Delaware....who would pay an extra $30 in shipping to receive a 4-6 month newer tire? NOBODY! Why waste the labor-time looking? It is a baseless argument according to the experts.

I just had a large carport built....6x6 posts. 12 of em. On principle, I know that if the wood was newer it would last longer, but DAMN: The posts they delivered were almost 3 years old. In principle, I got shorted. I wanted NEW wood. In practice, it does not matter.

Real World # 2: No tire seller is likley to even KNOW the various studies that show 2% aging per YEAR of proper storage. Luke just posted another that says "no measurable loss" after 3-4 years! So, would you really ask for a 2%-4% discount ? If manufacturers and vendors allowed that, some would hunt for 3-year old tires, knowing it DOES NOT MATTER, in hopes of saving 6% !

I am glad you feel that way. I do not, and we are not talking about a 3-6 month difference if you would have read my previous posts you would have seen that I would be ok with 6 months to 1 yr old but we are talking 3 yrs old here and that being undisclosed sets me off. Please give me an argument that states there is NO difference at all and I will gladly get off my soap box but that is impossible.

Advertise what you are selling, this is kind of like the Mcdonalds drive thru screen when you look at the picture of that sweet looking quarter pounder you think wow that looks good, but in reality what you get is not even close....sure it tastes the same, it still has all the disgusting properties and calories....but its not what you thought you were getting....and that is disappointing.

And disappointment is a feeling of regret and I like to live without those

 

[JonB]

Slither and Garron..... thanks for understanding. A corollary point is that DISTRIBUTORS [like me] do not know what we will be sending you on a given day! And the day you ask for a date quote, even 2-3 hours later would certainly be other date codes! The headaches of cherry-picking date codes abound.

That said: We HAVE been able, for those running Silver State Open Road Race, etc, to examine warehouse shipping logs, and look for "more recent" stocks to try and meet these race-tech specs. We have only done this 4-5 times in 3-4 years, because it is a time-penalty we take for racers in those few series. The net result has been 2-3 MONTHS differences! Not YEARS. And the newer tires always seemed to be the farthest away, dont they ?!? More $$ to ship.

And I take my own medicine: I am running 44/08 PS2s that feel like new! I spend a LOT of time at the tracks, switching cars, wheels, and codes, and the fact is: It does not real-world matter. When you feel the tire losing grip, DITCH IT..... tread depth and dates dont matter...grip matters.

 

[Red Snake]

Here's where I can see this being an issue.

Say I buy new tires tomorrow and they are dated 2008. I put 1,000 miles on my car over the next year and a half and then I put the car up for sale.

Knowledgeable buyers look at the date code on the tires and they have heard 100 times on this forum that "5 year old hockey pucks" need to be replaced. I could have a harder time selling my car because knowledgeable buyers don't want a car with 5 year old tires on it (even though they didn't REALLY age 3 years in proper storage).

Bottom line for me, when I buy new tires I do not want to get them date coded 3 years ago.

 

[JonB]

I am glad you feel that way. I do not, and we are not talking about a 3-6 month difference if you would have read my previous posts you would have seen that I would be ok with 6 months to 1 yr old but we are talking 3 yrs old here and that being undisclosed sets me off. Please give me an argument that states there is NO difference at all and I will gladly get off my soap box but that is impossible.

QED! See post 83 in this thread, posted by Luke at TireRack, with Source, which reads in part:
-----------------------

found this little nugget while surfing the net ...

Quote:
According to the RMA (Rubber Manufacturers Assoc.) a tires age will change the rubber hardness over time and that change is measured using a durometer or hardness meter. A tires "shelf life" is approximately 5-6 years if properly stored and there will be little to no change of the durometer measurement in that time period.
----------------------------

Search this site for the word Durometer and you will find abundant discussions. I espicially like the 16-year-old "like new" tire comment here: http://forums.viperclub.org/rt-10-gts-discussions/629509-hard-tires-durometer-reading.html

------------------------------

This is a perfect analogy that puts my lumber reference to shame:

.......this is kind of like the Mcdonalds drive thru screen when you look at the picture of that sweet looking quarter pounder you think wow that looks good, but in reality what you get is not even close....sure it tastes the same, it still has all the disgusting properties and calories....but its not what you thought you were getting....and that is disappointing

 

[TI3VOM]

See post 83 in this thread, posted by Luke at TireRack, which reads in part:


found this little nugget while surfing the net ...

Quote:
According to the RMA (Rubber Manufacturers Assoc.) a tires age will change the rubber hardness over time and that change is measured using a durometer or hardness meter. A tires "shelf life" is approximately 5-6 years if properly stored and there will be little to no change of the durometer measurement in that time period.

Really? Tire Rack has to search the internet for information on the tires they sell?

Heres a little "Nugget" I found on Tire Racks Website. Looks like I lost no less than a minimum of 30% on my tires life

The British Rubber Manufacturers Association (BRMA) recommended practice issued June, 2001, states "BRMA members strongly recommend that unused tyres should not be put into service if they are over six years old and that all tyres should be replaced ten years from the date of their manufacture."

 

[lh4x4]

Lance Armstrong stored his tires in a cool damp basement in France for years before using them on the team bikes. Aging worked for them. It was supposed to make them more durable.

Or was it his wine?

 

[TI3VOM]

Since Tire Rack sells tires manufactured in North and South America, as well as Europe, Africa and Asia, it's common for us to receive new tires directly from manufacturers that are already six to nine months old. Since we rotate our inventory, most of the tires we ship are less than a year old.

However some low volume tires in sizes for limited production vehicles can only be efficiently manufactured periodically where one short production run may produce more than a year's worth of global supply. In some of these cases, Tire Rack might receive new tires directly from the manufacturer that are already several years old.

There are also some occasions where we work with a tire manufacturer to help them clear out their inventory when they discontinue a tire line. While this may uncover some new tires that are several years old, these clearance tires are typically offered at a discount and will wear out before they age out.



Taken from Tire Racks website, what is the difference with discontinued tires getting a discount for age but not continuing lines with the same age?

 

[Slithr]

Advertise what you are selling, this is kind of like the Mcdonalds drive thru screen when you look at the picture of that sweet looking quarter pounder you think wow that looks good, but in reality what you get is not even close....sure it tastes the same, it still has all the disgusting properties and calories....but its not what you thought you were getting....and that is disappointing.

I think the McDonald's analogy is perfect This "IS" relative. I'm in the software design business for very large oil companies, designing basically 'QuickBooks' for X. I'd be pleased to talk about risk exposure and management of oil/products inventory purchased off the West Coast of Africa and transported/stored to the Gulf Coast and associated 'Loss/Gain' in arbitrage value, over the course of 30 days or years! As my main line of sustenance. Or, we can talk about my 'side line' weekend business of trying to educate folks, in soil micro-biology, where temperature and humidity variances impact the "quality" of my same product on a given day/climate condition (both daily temp. and hum.). It's Relative!!

No tire manufacturer will offer a discount for an older date coded tire. So you are suggesting all venders and dealers should lose profits if they are shipped tire that does not have a recent date code?

With all due respect, I have not asked for a 'discount' in price, nor am I un-pleased with the quality of tires received/mounted. With the added confidence in the wisdom of a very trusted source, I feel confident in my purchase. My only request, is to be better informed of what I'm purchasing, and the opportunity to "shop it" as an informed consumer ..... whether in the market for Viper tires or very high quality compost/soil.

Seems, kind 'a simple. Just, inform me as to what I'm getting and I'm either "cool wit it.... or Not So Much"

Granted ... Tire Mfg. dates, didn't come to light until recently.... but, as they do, please "as Experts" inform the purchasing public, otherwise ..... someone could "get" less than expected. (and those 'expectations, could be based on either time and/or dis-imformstion of tire quality and the needs of very fast Vipers).

I've never owned a car capable of these speeds, and need to rely on somone of "expertise". If you happen to buy a million Bbls, on the West Coast of Africa, call me, I'll do my best to help

 

[LifeIsGood]

I find it very hard to continue a discussion with people who just aren't listening. The consumers are speaking here...we want to know what we are buying. We believe that 3 year rubber is not the same as new rubber. Listen to us...understand us...respect us...stop treating us like children and talking down to us.

 

[TI3VOM]

I find it very hard to continue a discussion with people who just aren't listening. The consumers are speaking here...we want to know what we are buying. We believe that 3 year rubber is not the same as new rubber. Listen to us...understand us...respect us...stop treating us like children and talking down to us.

WELL SAID

 

[Slithr]

WELL SAID

+1 (In a lot fewer words!!)

 

[AZTVR]

I don't really see much problem here. If you want to know the date code on the tire before you buy it; you go to your local tire store and pay for the tire after they roll it out for you to see. This isn't practical for internet sales. If it becomes a selling issue for them, then they will incorporate the stocked tire date code in their sales software. If someone finds that they sell more tires by making the date code available pre-sale; and it increases their net income; then they will do it.

 

[Garron]

I find it very hard to continue a discussion with people who just aren't listening. The consumers are speaking here...we want to know what we are buying. We believe that 3 year rubber is not the same as new rubber. Listen to us...understand us...respect us...stop treating us like children and talking down to us.

This is a manufacturer "issue". If the manufacturer is only supplying tires with a 2008 date code what would you have a vender do? Poop a fresh one.

Last I checked I was the only one that emailed Michelin (page 2). Something that I think might actually get results if more people did it. The source of the problem is the "manufacturer" and don't tell me company Y is better then X. They all make a bunch of tires and when they run out they make more. I work for a Chrysler dealership, I ordered front tires (PS2's) for "my own car". 2008 dated tires came in from Michelin ordered through Chrysler parts, I returned them and ordered another set and then another. All came with 2008 dates, I gave up and installed them. Can I blame the dealer? Can you guys blame JonB or tire rack? I am sure if they were able to they would love to sell tires with recent date codes and not be dealing with any of this..

Do I think that there is anything wrong with the 2008 PS2's? No absolutly not! Would I rather have 2010 tires? Of course I would!!! But if they have not made any yet then I will have to make due and thats life.

 

[LifeIsGood]

Clearly these guys know that these tires have 2008 DOT dates. This isn't the first time this has come up. There are other choices out there...that's the issue. Some consumers might decide to purchase another brand if they knew up front that these were 3 years old...do you get it yet! Full disclosure.

This is a manufacturer "issue". If the manufacturer is only supplying tires with a 2008 date code what would you have a vender do? Poop a fresh one.

Last I checked I was the only one that emailed Michelin (page 2). Something that I think might actually get results if more people did it. The source of the problem is the "manufacturer" and don't tell me company Y is better then X. They all make a bunch of tires and when they run out they make more. I work for a Chrysler dealership, I ordered front tires (PS2's) for "my own car". 2008 dated tires came in from Michelin ordered through Chrysler parts, I returned them and ordered another set and then another. All came with 2008 dates, I gave up and installed them. Can I blame the dealer? Can you guys blame JonB or tire rack? I am sure if they were able to they would love to sell tires with recent date codes and not be dealing with any of this..

 

[Slithr]

This is a manufacturer "issue". If the manufacturer is only supplying tires with a 2008 date code what would you have a vender do? Poop a fresh one.

Last I checked I was the only one that emailed Michelin (page 2). Something that I think might actually get results if more people did it. The source of the problem is the "manufacturer" and don't tell me company Y is better then X. They all make a bunch of tires and when they run out they make more. I work for a Chrysler dealership, I ordered front tires (PS2's) for "my own car". 2008 dated tires came in from Michelin ordered through Chrysler parts, I returned them and ordered another set and then another. All came with 2008 dates, I gave up and installed them. Can I blame the dealer? Can you guys blame JonB or tire rack? I am sure if they were able to they would love to sell tires with recent date codes and not be dealing with any of this..

I commend you for contacting the mfg. and agree ... maybe if more would, it'd be great (like writing Congress). I really don't think an impact on manufacturing and distribution practices, could be expected in our lifetime. I hate to be pessimistic, but I'm starting to think its realistic, half way into this voyage.

Like you, I accepted my 2008 tires in 2010 as "new", with the confidence that they will hold up to the minimum that, can be dished out by the 03' stock HP of a Dodge Viper at extremes. Actually, my life depends on it, when out.

I'm not Skeeerd, driving on 08' rubber vs. 03' ZP rubber, (although, I'd rather known I was buying 08' rubber in '10... no harm, no foul, I like my new stickies)

 

[Slithr]

...do you get it yet! Full disclosure.

Dude, it doesn't get more concise. Let the "informed" consumer decide

 

[Garron]

Clearly these guys know that these tires have 2008 DOT dates. This isn't the first time this has come up. There are other choices out there...that's the issue. Some consumers might decide to purchase another brand if they knew up front that these were 3 years old...do you get it yet! Full disclosure.

You have no guarantee another brand of tire will come with a newer date code. If I order something I will not know until it shows up. It took four months to return the tires I did not want.

 

[Slithr]

You have no guarantee another brand of tire will come with a newer date code. If I order something I will not know until it shows up. It took four months to return the tires I did not want.

Nor do I expect a guarantee, But, the opportunity (knowing the facts) would be nice, as a consumer dropping 1-2k on "recreational" tires, which will probably be retired before 6 years of use by responsible owners. If I have nothing better to do than shop a 96% or a 100% "new" tire, so be it.... let me shop (I don't, I like my somewhat new stickies)

 

[Garron]

Nor do I expect a guarantee, But, the opportunity (knowing the facts) would be nice, as a consumer dropping 1-2k on "recreational" tires, which will probably be retired before 6 years of use by responsible owners. If I have nothing better to do than shop a 96% or a 100% "new" tire, so be it.... let me shop (I don't, I like my somewhat new stickies)

You are talking to someone who has 2008 tires on their car bought last summer. If I can't do anything about it and I can return, discount and call every warehouse you can think of. Then I am not sure where you are going to do your shopping.

 

[Slithr]

You are talking to someone who has 2008 tires on their car bought last summer. If I can't do anything about it and I can return, discount and call every warehouse you can think of. Then I am not sure where you are going to do your shopping.

I know the Mfg. date of the tires you purchased, and the steps you've taken to resolve your initial surprise and/or disappointment, when you received the less than new tires (you like me, feel like we have perfectly good tires based on dist. circumstances, per the tire experts, which I'm not), I know where your comming from, based on your previous thread entries.

As a new Viper owner, with absolute naive ignorance of high performance tires and age/performance/lifespan thereof. I have to trust the "experts" and do, as stated. I have no idea where I'd shop "given the tools and knowledge" to do so,...... but, I could've spent several weeks chasing "newer" tires from unknown sources, if I so desired..... but, instead, I like you accepted the "industry standard" based on current distribution logistics practices, a (2+) year old (well stored) "somewhat new tire" and as stated, many times, am very happy with my purchase of somewhat new stickies

Signed,
Miles ahead of 7 year old ZP's and Thrilled...... Thanks JonB

 

[Mutts02GTS]

I bought my tires from a site vendor less than ninety days ago, my old tires were six years old, they were on the car when I picked it up in November 2010, first thing I did was purchase the new tires. I just checked the dates on them and guess what: 0108 on the fronts and 1510 on the rears. I guess they did make tires past 2008. This is my first Viper and I, like most of you, am relying on the experts on here to give me sound advice especially when I'm dropping 1-2K on tires. I do believe my fronts, from all outward appearances, were well taken care of, BUT I would have liked the option to know that these were (NOS) NEW OLD STOCK. For me personally it would have shown more of the integrity of the vendor I bought them from, Full Disclosure so that it's MY decision to put three year old tires on my car and not someone who is only worried about their bottom line and not their consumers interest at heart. What my car wears now are still 100% better than what it had but can't shake the feeling I was douped into buying NOS tires....

 

[Slithr]

I bought them from, Full Disclosure so that it's MY decision to put three year old tires on my car and not someone who is only worried about their bottom line and not their consumers interest at heart.

Mutt, as much as can agree with you on the "informed" decision being "Mine/Ours" vs. a distributor with less than 'New' inventory on their shelf.
I think it might be a little unfair to imply our trusted sources and site "tire experts" are more concerned with the bottom line, than the safety of fellow Viper brother'n, might be a bit harsh.

I, like you, Garron, and I'm sure others have had an eye opening experience in the past few months, and have learned a bit more about tire life and distribution practices in the process. This should result in better informed consumers next go-round by default. I don't think I'll spend any additional time shopping for 6 month 'newer' shoes, next time but other 'informed consumers' might?

I still like my new Kumho's Night and Day Diff., Life/Death Diff. and Love it, ain't raw HP grand There good'n and sticky and even belch smoke when

 

[Roy]

Wow what a thread, I love it! Especially the reactions from LifeIsGood and JonB make it very pleasent to read, I believe them both and can't choose directions...Maybe I don't care enough.

Only thing I can contribute is that I am a European citizen and can confirm that not all tires have DOT codes here, but most of them do.

When I bought my PS2's the dealership didn't even now what a DOT code was.I bought them last august and the DOT code I received was one week/month old (don't recall exactly) I even had to wait on the delivery as Michelin told they had to be produced...

I can also say that the European PS2's are not 100% a match with the American!! They feel the same and drive the same also, but they aren't the same. They have slightly different spec AND look and are produced in France I believe. The American tires aren't allowed here. When people import a American car, they should replace the tires, but mostly they don't because the taxguys don't know sh*t about the rules and don't know how to read the tire.

Just my 2 cents