Normally Aspirated power upgrade on a Gen 2 (96)
- Thread starter MADMAX
- Start date
cfiiman
Viper Owner
Thanks Plum, I'll give that a try, I find lots of posts on that, "it happens so be careful" but not what to do "if" it did. Just seems like if it moves one way it should move the other I guess 
That is a potential Gen-1 issue, not Gen-2.
Gen-2 has thermally interference fit "Dry" liners, and they should NEVER move. If they do, they were installed wrong, and you are SOL, you need to re-sleeve the block anyway- pushing them back in place will NOT fix it. There was a few engines that had the sleeves installed short, and not seated to the bottom of the counter-bore in the block. This caused the sleeves to "drop" over time with heat cycling/gasket pressure and loose sealing, since there was nothing to keep the sleeve from falling into the engine until it actually bottomed out. I have not heard of this in a long time, and it was very rare.
Gen-1 is Wet Sleeve, and the liners are loose. They have two O-Rings at the bottom, and are "squeezed" between the block ledge that the liner bottom slides into and sits on, and heads when you bolt the them down. It is possible on an engine that has sticky bores for some reason, that if you rotate the engine, the sleeve will go with the piston, and the O-Ring section will slide out of the block. Chances are on an older engine, its going to ruin the O-Rings, requiring that you pull the rod/piston, liner, clean, new o-rings, etc, etc.
However, with that said, EVERY SINGLE Gen-1 I have worked on had the liners near cemented into place with silicates from the Antifreeze over the years, and required a puller to remove them... let alone falling out by accident. It is not that big of an issue. At most, try not to rotate the engine with the heads off unless you are either holding the sleeves down somehow, or REALLY watching them for movement. To date, I have yet to have a Gen-1 sleeve shift on me unintentionally. The only situation I would worry about is if for some reason, an engine was VERY sticky, or had not ever had coolant in it [Old crate engines]
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cfiiman
Viper Owner
Ok, that makes sense to me now, thank you! So when you work on a gen 1 with the heads off you personally do not install one of the retaining bars?
Nope, have never used them once. If you know enough about the engine design, there is nothing to be afraid of really. And having pulled the sleeves out of a bunch on purpose... I cant imagine them ever coming out by accident, LOL!
ViperGTS
Enthusiast
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I know you will not like to hear this, but why do you ****** a +15 year old "CLASSIC"?
Better get a GEN-4 or wait for a GEN-5 power-wise and leave the 1996 classic VIPER GTS a classic.
Sorry, if you do not agree.
GOOD LUCK with your project anyway.
P.S.: neither the stock suspension nor the stock brakes will keep up with any power upgrade....more to come!
Better get a GEN-4 or wait for a GEN-5 power-wise and leave the 1996 classic VIPER GTS a classic.
Sorry, if you do not agree.
GOOD LUCK with your project anyway.
P.S.: neither the stock suspension nor the stock brakes will keep up with any power upgrade....more to come!
cfiiman
Viper Owner
Good to know, thanks again.
Sorry for my error in the first paragraph...............what I meant to say was.............120 ft/lbs of torque on a set of bolts does not yield the same pull on the block as 120 ft/lbs of torque using a set of studs.
Many thanks to all for feedback and comments.
The work continues........
Santa came early in the UK – well he did for me!
My heads arrived back from the workshop during the weekend all welded with Power Steering, temperature sensor and water mounts fitted. I’ll fit the heads over Christmas, if I can get a sober moment - maybe I'll leave it for the new year.
They needed an extra skim for flat - just the smallest amount, so I needed to check head cavity volume again.
This came to 73cc so adding the head gasket and deck volumes means my compression ratio is working out around 10.3:1 to 10.4:1
While the heads were away at the workshops I also took an opportunity to get them flow bench tested.
The setup included the inlet manifold, throttle bodies, smooth tubes and stock air-filter body with K&Ns.
The results were very very interesting - I’ll share them with you later in the project.
In the meantime I’m thinkin “next phase” with pushrods and rockers.
Okay, okay, I said I was gonna use stock Gen3 rockers but I’m coming round to roller rockers.
Might have to take your advice Red Snake and go for T&Ds.
The work continues........
Santa came early in the UK – well he did for me!
My heads arrived back from the workshop during the weekend all welded with Power Steering, temperature sensor and water mounts fitted. I’ll fit the heads over Christmas, if I can get a sober moment - maybe I'll leave it for the new year.
You must be registered for see images attach
They needed an extra skim for flat - just the smallest amount, so I needed to check head cavity volume again.
You must be registered for see images attach
This came to 73cc so adding the head gasket and deck volumes means my compression ratio is working out around 10.3:1 to 10.4:1
While the heads were away at the workshops I also took an opportunity to get them flow bench tested.
The setup included the inlet manifold, throttle bodies, smooth tubes and stock air-filter body with K&Ns.
The results were very very interesting - I’ll share them with you later in the project.
In the meantime I’m thinkin “next phase” with pushrods and rockers.
Okay, okay, I said I was gonna use stock Gen3 rockers but I’m coming round to roller rockers.
Might have to take your advice Red Snake and go for T&Ds.
Some good progress over the last couple of weeks, although a few setbacks prior to the Christmas break which left me waiting until after the holiday before I could resolve them. 
This was namely the newly installed PS bracket mounts which still wasn't quite aligned correctly.
Back to the machine shop for a quick face-off to get the pulley in exactly the right spot.
At last, time to fit the heads, starting with cleaning the heads thoroughly followed by cleaning them some more - I can't stress 'clean' enough.
This picture is of some swarf tucked away in one of the head water channels.
Imaging what damage that’s gonna do when it drops out onto your head gasket as you lower it onto the block for final torqueing.
PS bracket sits nice and square with some 3mm spacers .
I had totally forgotten what 120ftlb feels like when torqueing the head bolts.
Needed to climb inside the engine bay to get good leverage and stand where the radiator fan would normally be.
Both heads are now torqued down into position.
Fianlly, I had a bit of spare time over Christmas so trial fitted the exhaust headers, just to make sure they fitted.
Lookin good!
This was namely the newly installed PS bracket mounts which still wasn't quite aligned correctly.
Back to the machine shop for a quick face-off to get the pulley in exactly the right spot.
At last, time to fit the heads, starting with cleaning the heads thoroughly followed by cleaning them some more - I can't stress 'clean' enough.
This picture is of some swarf tucked away in one of the head water channels.
Imaging what damage that’s gonna do when it drops out onto your head gasket as you lower it onto the block for final torqueing.
You must be registered for see images attach
PS bracket sits nice and square with some 3mm spacers .
You must be registered for see images attach
I had totally forgotten what 120ftlb feels like when torqueing the head bolts.
Needed to climb inside the engine bay to get good leverage and stand where the radiator fan would normally be.
Both heads are now torqued down into position.
You must be registered for see images attach
Fianlly, I had a bit of spare time over Christmas so trial fitted the exhaust headers, just to make sure they fitted.
You must be registered for see images attach
Lookin good!
MTGTS
Enthusiast
Very nice, I should be putting my new heads on my new motor this week. I'm not to far behind you, except my motor isn't even in my car. lol
cfiiman
Viper Owner
So how long where your heads off the engine while they were being worked on? Looking great, I love this thread.
blackandblue01
Viper Owner
Great information!! Knight Viper
Viper Owner
Happy New Year, Keep up the great work. I can't wait to get my motor back and in the car after reading your post....Addictive isn't it lol
Appreciate the replies guys. 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Good progress over the last week, although I wasn’t expecting this….
I call it a ’10 pence piece to bin lid moment’ …..
That roughly translates to a “Dime to trash can lid event” ….. think about!!!
I test fitting the inlet manifold and discovered it wasn’t sitting square on both heads.
With the inlet manifold sitting nice and flush on the passenger side head, it was sitting high on the front drivers side head.
I thought for a moment I’d bought a dodgy set of heads - 10p to bin lid!!!
From the front it looked like this.
This photo illustrates the inlet manifold is also in contact with the top of the thermostat housing!!!
You can see from these photos, the inlet manifold and thermostat housing were a pretty close fit when they were stock – I’d say they had been at least "rubbing" – for a while.
So back to the machine shop, again, to remove 4.5mm …..
There was a lot of excess material on the inlet manifold point of contact so the job was a straightforward activity and ended up looking like this.
That's a new plug fitted BTW, not the old one machined flat.
I test fitted the inlet manifold a second time and it now aligns perfectly – more later.
On with pushrod measuring, next.
Will be using a Compcams checking pushrod.
http://www.compperformancegroupstor...ROD&Product_Code=7702-1&Category_Code=PSHRDTL
At the moment the plan is to stick with stock Gen 3 rockers but if I can’t accurately measure the pushrod lengths I’ll bin the idea and go for something that involves spending more money.
The engine has been without heads fitted for about 1 week in total – during this time I mainly cleaned the block head faces - I then fitted a spare set of Gen 3 heads to keep everything under compression.
Happy New Year to you too, and everyone else, if it’s not too late.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Good progress over the last week, although I wasn’t expecting this….
I call it a ’10 pence piece to bin lid moment’ …..
That roughly translates to a “Dime to trash can lid event” ….. think about!!!
I test fitting the inlet manifold and discovered it wasn’t sitting square on both heads.
With the inlet manifold sitting nice and flush on the passenger side head, it was sitting high on the front drivers side head.
I thought for a moment I’d bought a dodgy set of heads - 10p to bin lid!!!
You must be registered for see images attach
From the front it looked like this.
You must be registered for see images attach
This photo illustrates the inlet manifold is also in contact with the top of the thermostat housing!!!
You can see from these photos, the inlet manifold and thermostat housing were a pretty close fit when they were stock – I’d say they had been at least "rubbing" – for a while.
You must be registered for see images attach
You must be registered for see images attach
So back to the machine shop, again, to remove 4.5mm …..
There was a lot of excess material on the inlet manifold point of contact so the job was a straightforward activity and ended up looking like this.
That's a new plug fitted BTW, not the old one machined flat.
You must be registered for see images attach
You must be registered for see images attach
I test fitted the inlet manifold a second time and it now aligns perfectly – more later.
On with pushrod measuring, next.
Will be using a Compcams checking pushrod.
http://www.compperformancegroupstor...ROD&Product_Code=7702-1&Category_Code=PSHRDTL
At the moment the plan is to stick with stock Gen 3 rockers but if I can’t accurately measure the pushrod lengths I’ll bin the idea and go for something that involves spending more money.
Fatboy 18
Enthusiast
Wow, great write up Ade, I never gave the inlet manifold a thought with your new heads! Should be good to see if you can keep up with me
Wow, great write up Ade, I never gave the inlet manifold a thought with your new heads! Should be good to see if you can keep up with me
Thanks Mark.
Ordered the pushrods and received them in super quick time – FedEx import and handling fees to pay again but that’s another story.
Fitted the pushrods then checked at TDC for any errors.
Also pulled fuel pump relay in the trunk and used the starter motor to turn the engine (hoping to pressurize the hydraulic lifters and check my work) but if anything it made them spongier.
Guess the engine needs to be running to generate enough pressure to do this.
Everything seemed to check-out okay.
Refitted the inlet manifold and measured the clearance to thermostat housing as 0.025” - problem gone away.
You must be registered for see images attach
On with the last stages of reassembly.
You must be registered for see images attach
Hopefully will get a chance to run her up this week.
JnM_SRT
Enthusiast
Great write up and looks like a very exciting project! Can't wait for the final results.
cfiiman
Viper Owner
Can't wait to hear how that goes, nice write up!
You *may* have jumped the gun on the manifold/thermostat. The Gen-3 heads/manifolds are cut shorter on the intake gasket surface because gen-3 intake gaskets are more than twice as thick as Gen-2's. I cant see enough detail to know which gaskets you are using, but you probably should be using Gen-3, not gen-2 on that setup. By using Gen-2, you will likely find the manifold has dropped too far, and the bolts no longer line up well. It is however possible if the heads have been shaved enough, that you will have brought it back into alignment unintentionally.
Check the alignment of the intake manifold bolt holes to the heads and report back.
Check the alignment of the intake manifold bolt holes to the heads and report back.
Thanks for feedback and support guys.
Final GTS,
Many thanks for your feedback.
Yep, I understand where you're coming from.
I think you could be right - I am using Gen2 gaskets - I recon they were just less than 1mm thick, probably smaller now compressed.
A Gen3 gasket might have been better but I'm not so sure:-
Firstly the gaskets would have needed to be a LOT more than twice as thick to give me the clearance I needed.
Secondly thicker gaskets would have pushed the manifold away for the heads resulting in bolt hole mis-alignments.
The bolt holes aligned perfectly using the Gen2 gaskets and tightened down no problem, once I'd overcome the thermostat housing interference problem.
Cheers,
Ade.
Final GTS,
Many thanks for your feedback.
Yep, I understand where you're coming from.
I think you could be right - I am using Gen2 gaskets - I recon they were just less than 1mm thick, probably smaller now compressed.
A Gen3 gasket might have been better but I'm not so sure:-
Firstly the gaskets would have needed to be a LOT more than twice as thick to give me the clearance I needed.
Secondly thicker gaskets would have pushed the manifold away for the heads resulting in bolt hole mis-alignments.
The bolt holes aligned perfectly using the Gen2 gaskets and tightened down no problem, once I'd overcome the thermostat housing interference problem.
Cheers,
Ade.
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Managed to run engine up mid-week and produce this short piece of video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQAaRzG3ZUI
As you can imagine, I was over the moon with joy - engine noise in the garage again after such a long time was wonderful - no idea what dB it was but it was uncomfortable for very long without ear defenders.
Next job - exhaust install and tune but not until mid March
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQAaRzG3ZUI
As you can imagine, I was over the moon with joy - engine noise in the garage again after such a long time was wonderful - no idea what dB it was but it was uncomfortable for very long without ear defenders.
Next job - exhaust install and tune
but not until mid March Fatboy 18
Enthusiast
Really Great mate, well done 
cfiiman
Viper Owner
Managed to run engine up mid-week and produce this short piece of video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQAaRzG3ZUI
As you can imagine, I was over the moon with joy - engine noise in the garage again after such a long time was wonderful - no idea what dB it was but it was uncomfortable for very long without ear defenders.
Next job - exhaust install and tune
Very cool, what was the initial smoke coming from, just curious
CEJ
Enthusiast
Sounded great!
Patience and perfection paid off. Thank you for taking the time to share this build with us.
Knight Viper
Viper Owner
Sounds awesome. Can't wait to hear how the first 'seat of the pants' assessment goes. There isn't a better way to get to know your car than to take it apart and put it back together. The confidence that will built for future projects is priceless. Beautiful job my friend!
Kevin
Kevin
Voodoo Rob
Enthusiast
This write up is great, glad to see its coming together
