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Observations while Twin Turbocharging a 2014 SRT GTS

Discussion in 'Generation V Discussions / SRT Coupe, GTS, GTC, AC' started by DingDong, Feb 11, 2014.

  1. DingDong

    DingDong Viper Owner

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    Observations while Twin Turbocharging a 2014 SRT GTS:

    1. SRT really doesn't want you to be able to put turbo chargers on this vehicle. Especially big ones!!

    The area you have to mount the turbos, diffuse heat and route [sizable] inlets/outlets is about the size of two small lunchboxes. Not exactly easy to work with. Be prepared to grind, cut and saw. Once you are done, get ready to grind some more. A lot of clearance issues down below!!! (Rear-mounting would have been a lot easier!!!!)

    Then, be ready to install about 20 Lbs of industrial strength heat protection and shielding! Then, grind some more.

    2. The OEM engine mounts are SO flexible and mushy that you can actually readily move the motor with one hand (seriously, try it yourself!!). I understand why SRT did this (ok, I almost understand) but it lends itself to an exhaust system/headers cracking for a big torque monster over time!! Solid mounts are a must!!! (We hand built some that work very well - and the car actually feels great with them. It's NOT a rattle trap like I had worried it might be!)

    3. The OEM fuel system can't *reliably* supply fuel to the engine beyond 675 RWHP. You may get more power than this on the OEM fuel pump/canister assembly - but the fuel pressure will be inconsistent. I don't like flying to close to the Sun, do you?

    Luckily the fuel system is a breeze to upgrade!

    4. The clutch. Oh, the clutch. All I can figure is that SRT ran out of money when they were building this otherwise beautiful clutch assembly. The first time you actually get traction at 650 RWHP will also be the last time you get traction at this power level until you upgrade the clutch. I have no empirical data to support the following statement. However, based on my limited experience, I'd be surprised if the OEM clutch would last 15,000 miles with the type of spirited driving that Viper enthusiasts are known for. It's just not enough material and not enough clamping force! (I fully understand the need for a clutch pedal that isn't stiff, but there are ways to engineer a much stronger clutch while preserving driveability!)

    5. SRT has no aversion to you mounting a large intercooler up front. They actually made this part of the build very very easy.

    6. This engine was MEANT for boost. It responds incredibly well to only a few PSI of boost. I can't imagine what a more Turbo friendly (a bit more lift) cam is going to do once we start turning the pressure up beyond 8 PSI (more is always better, yes??!!?) !!!! (I'm working with one of the big cam makers on a grind right now)

    I am considering tuning for and running E85. However, I think that this big displacement motor will literally make more power at 15 PSI than anyone can use under 140 MPH. That, and your car stinks of alcohol, more specifically, vodka when running E85 and no cats. Trying explaining THAT when you get pulled over! :)
    *Note: I believe 15-16 PSI is the limit with the stock compression ratio and 16-17 degrees of timing on 93 Octane.

    7. I believe the bottom-end of this engine will easily live a long and happy life past 1,000 RWHP. (By way of turbocharging. I have no idea if it could live to this power level on Nitrous Oxide). I plan to prove that in the coming weeks/months. (and if I'm wrong, then thicker forged internals here I come!)

    8. No mufflers necessary as the turbochargers act as great mufflers! The sound is pure sex! No more UPS truck sound! Sounds like a turbo Lambo now beyond 2000 RPM!

    9. This car definitely needs a hood latch release lock-out so that when the doors are locked the hood is too! SRT, are you listening?

    I'll post up some pics of the build in the next week or two when I have a bit more time. Please note, this setup is something that myself and two friends put together in a few weeks time. We ended up not building it to resell/a one-off so I'm not offering you anything here other than some mostly unknown information and perhaps a little comic relief.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2014
  2. Nine Ball

    Nine Ball Enthusiast

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    Hehe, my clutch hasn't lasted 7K miles, with "spirited driving". They really are the weak point, especially at the drag strip. Luckily, my Bad Boyzz Garage dual-disk is already in shipment. :)

    Tony
     
  3. SRT09

    SRT09 Viper Owner

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    Is the clutch the same as the Gen 4?
     
  4. JohnnyBravo

    JohnnyBravo Viper Owner

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    It's remarkable how much you've accomplished with that car in such a short period of time. Can't wait to see the final results and dyno numbers.
     
  5. Tiago

    Tiago Viper Owner

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    looking forward to the pics Ed.
     
  6. TrackAire

    TrackAire Viper Owner

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    I know for a fact that SRT worked with BBG on the development of the BBG clutch for the Gen 5 for those that want to upgrade. The stock Gen 4 clutch isn't much better and BBG designed the unit that replaced every ACR-X race car with his clutch for those in the race series. Even when my Gen 4 was stock, I knew there was an issue with the clutch. I installed a BBG unit with around 3000 miles on the clock....honestly, the stock clutch and what SRT provided was not a quality piece. I was hoping they'd upgrade the Gen 5, but apparently not.

    You can have a light pedal feel with good clamping....it just takes the time, money and engineering know how to do this. Call BBG before you start turning up the boost. Good luck with the build, looking forward to seeing the car out and about.

    Cheers,
    George
     
  7. ACRBruce

    ACRBruce Viper Owner

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    Dingdong,
    Can't wait to see pictures of your build. What are you doing ECUwise?
     
  8. DingDong

    DingDong Viper Owner

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    Thanks Guys!

    TrackAire,

    Thanks! I'll give them a call! My preferred vendor never called me back on the clutch he thought they had for the Gen V. :(

    ACRBruce,

    Unfortunately I'm not at liberty to discuss how I accomplished the tuning. I can tell you that the factory ECU is still in the car. (I'm not trying to be a jerk - there are actual binding legal obligations regarding why I can't speak about it so I am intentionally being vague on this aspect of the build)
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2014
  9. kdaviper

    kdaviper Enthusiast

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    You're a Wizard, Harry.
     
  10. Jack B

    Jack B Enthusiast

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    I know for a fact Toddy shipped out 2 G5 clutches last week.

     
  11. Nine Ball

    Nine Ball Enthusiast

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    Mine and yours?
     
  12. cashcorn

    cashcorn Enthusiast

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    Nine Ball, Was your 10 second pass done with stock exhaust? Any dyno #'s on your motor? thanks!
     
  13. Nine Ball

    Nine Ball Enthusiast

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    100% stock vehicle, equipped with 19" drag radials on the stock rear wheels. No dynos made, as I tend to use dynos for a tuning tool only. Since I've got no mods, never saw a need to dyno it. If I get bored, I'll put it on some rollers :)
     
  14. Jack B

    Jack B Enthusiast

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    That seems accurate

     
  15. Moundir

    Moundir Enthusiast

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    When will this magic tuning be available to the rest of the viper world? Great job!
     
  16. Dan Cragin

    Dan Cragin Enthusiast

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    Sounds like a great build. I would love to work with you on a clutch setup, done numerous. How do you like the higher first gear in the transmission? Is is just right to get the turbos?
     
  17. Jack B

    Jack B Enthusiast

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    Dan

    Give us your thoughts on the new first gear.


     
  18. DingDong

    DingDong Viper Owner

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    Dan,

    The gearing is PERFECT with this motor and these turbos! Quite frankly, if the turbos were any smaller or if the gears were any shorter, then it would be completely uncontrollable. The *ONLY* thing I can see that I'm going to change is that I want another 500 RPM out of this motor before redline. I'm currently trying to figure out the best (safest) way to get there (a lot of factors involved in this equation from the PCM to physical rotating mass). Getting there isn't the problem - safely getting there is.

    As far as clutch, I'll gladly work with you on something as I'm in a bad spot right now and really need a clutch that can handle some serious power. It would be great for us to collectively put something together for the rest of the community! Feel free to PM or email me on this topic if you are serious and we can figure something out.

    Congrats to Jack and NineBall on their new clutches! You bastards! :)
     
  19. BAD BOYZZ GARAGE

    BAD BOYZZ GARAGE Enthusiast

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    Ding Dong,

    What's your power level, just curious?

    BAD BOYZZ GARAGE
    Toddy

    DISTRIBUTORS OF POWER :usa:
     
  20. DingDong

    DingDong Viper Owner

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    Toddy,

    A little over 650 RWHP cooked the stock clutch with NT05Rs accelerating WOT in second gear. New OEM clutch going in the car this weekend (also just finished up installing a fuel system that will support 1800 HP on E85 so we can turn the tick up)! I fully intend to lay down 950+ RWHP on the stock bottom-end [once I can find a clutch that will live at 1,000+ ft-lbs].

    I'm really hoping Dan Cragin above (or anyone else here who is serious about developing this) wants to work with me to develop a clutch that can actually handle substantial power. I am ready to install/uninstall and test until we get it sorted out!
     
  21. SRT09

    SRT09 Viper Owner

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    Any ETA on releasing the tuning details?
     
  22. DingDong

    DingDong Viper Owner

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    SRT09,

    Not at this time.
     
  23. Dan Cragin

    Dan Cragin Enthusiast

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    Sounds like a great build you have done on that new Viper, I can understand the time and effort that all takes.

    In regards to the clutch, being that that is a street car there would be two good options. For something like that I would want a clutch that has smooth engagement, soft pedal and was not noisey. Most clutches setup for that kind of power have unsprung hubs, harsh friction material and non strapped floaters, so they tend to rattle and have juttery engagement. The pedal effort tends to be high, because of the clamp load.

    The Tilton carbon setup would be ideal, a four plate with a heavy flywheel, that would give you the best feel of anything out there, but its expensive. It would take anything you can put to it. Another option would be the custom McLeod units I have had built. Its a diapharm clutch with a soft pedal, I have them use a sintered material called "Meba" that really has good engagement qualities but can be really abused without getting too grabby. I have the floaters double strapped so its really quiet and can hold up to hard downshifts. The discs are sprung so it does not hammer the transmssion internals. These diaphram clutches will hold up to 900hp, had them in a few 850rwhp cars without an issue. Of course at the dragstrip, with wrinkle walls and 4500 launches who knows. The only drawback to this setup is weight, its no lighter than the stock setup, in fact its a few pounds more. They do take about 500 miles to seat in.

    Id be happy to have something built for you, just over my cost to try.
     
  24. Malu59RT

    Malu59RT Viper Owner

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    Can you snap some cell phone shots of the engine bay and anything else you think is interesting? Would be nice to see it.
     
  25. DingDong

    DingDong Viper Owner

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    Dan,

    Sounds good! Can you PM me your information and I'll give you a call? I'll gladly cover build costs so we can put one together to try out.

    Malu59RT,

    I know you from the corvetteforum from wayyy back. You've been a member there for a long long time.

    Here are some pics I snapped early last week when we were bolting it all together for the last time.

    IMAG0336.jpg


    ***I tried to attach other pics but it says that this exceeds my quota***** Thanks VCA...

    I'm going to take some better shots of the entire set up when things slow down a little and everything if finished being powder-coated.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2014
  26. Torquemonster

    Torquemonster Enthusiast

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    Fantastic project. I would have gone rear mount as I love the ability to run free flowing plumbing both in and out. I have a 2013 rear mount LS3 and it works brilliantly, 300rwhp by 2600rpm with an auto, peaks at only 640 (fwhp) due to small turbo, but upgrade coming to 800hp on auto without any loss of bottom end (state of art EFR BW 9180) - thing gets 30mpg too lol. If it boosted any quicker it would not be useable.

    Still, now you have gone to the trouble up front, you'll have a winner when fully sorted. Love what you are doing.
     
  27. Malu59RT

    Malu59RT Viper Owner

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    Thanks for posting! Actually, we know each other through DallasRacing, back when it was a private site. I believe Mr. Big invited you over there? Hadn't heard from you in a long time, glad to see you came over to the dark side. Viper > Vette :)

    Pretty cool picture! I typically do all my photo posting, by uploading to a third party site like flickr.com or photobucket.com, especially since the quota thing is getting pretty annoying. If you want, email me the pics ([email protected]) and I'd be happy to upload them for you. I'd love to see the engine bay area and any pics of the turbos mounted. I know some Gen 1/2 cars had to notch the frame to fit turbos, and that would suck if it has to be done on the Gen V. I would TT a Gen V, strictly for the noises they make, and looking forward to seeing more on this build. Even though you said you decided not to go to production, I think you and your builder should re-evaluate. There really aren't any other options on the market I would go with, and it seems like you guys have figured out the big issues on this build, and are working to resolve them. Thanks for sharing!
     
  28. DingDong

    DingDong Viper Owner

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    Malu,

    You're absolutely right! I didn't know if you'd recall me from all that! Is Mr. Big still on the scene? I sure hope he and Louis G are doing well! Nice to re-acquaint with you!

    We definitely identified and worked around all of the major hurdles on this platform. My friend and I decided it probably wouldn't be lucrative to reproduce this kit given the extremely limited market/interest.

    The only area that was nearly impossible to work around was getting cool air back to the turbos. The solution we came up with was, what I consider to be less than optimal, but it works none the less (had to use some scat ducting from the front of the car).

    Yes, we had to notch the sh*t out of the frame but we TIGged in tubular reinforcements where we had to run piping through the frame (hence the reference in the original post to endless cutting and grinding...) so structural rigidity wasn't sacrificed! (If I had gone with 6266 turbos then this could have been avoided and the install would have been much easier- but lets face it... Anyone who buys a new Viper and wants to TT it doesn't want to jack around with little 6266s... :) )

    I'll look into a third party hosting site to get some pics up in the next few days. For now my focus is on getting another clutch that won't meltdown when I stab the go pedal.
     
  29. Malu59RT

    Malu59RT Viper Owner

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    Of course I remember, and I'm actually one of the owners of DR now. Mr. Big is actually into baggers right now, and has one of the most beautiful ones I've seen.

    When you say it wouldn't be lucrative to reproduce, I'm curious the basis for that? It seems like the fabrication work is complete, so you could make some jigs and start pumping them out. The biggest hurdle has always been the tuning solution, but if you have a way around that, the interest for TT'ing a Gen V opens up a lot, especially being able to keep the stock ECU and retain the electronics inside the car. The only concern I would see is notching the frame, as most people wouldn't want to do that. For reference, another company is selling a bolt-on kit for $40k, with an after market ECU. Bring the cost down and retain the stock computer, you have a few people's attention. Just saying, I think more people would be interested once some info, pics, and video is posted up :)
     
  30. BAD BOYZZ GARAGE

    BAD BOYZZ GARAGE Enthusiast

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    Jack,

    Get yours installed, Tony's breaking his clutch in and getting the itch to start banging some gears!! I think you'll be diggin the performance improvement.. Too bad your not running my headers, but at least you'll have a bullet prove clutch - gearbox setup!!

    I appreciate your trust in BBG.. :usa:

    Yep Ding Dong,

    We know the issues with the G5 systems and were very pleased SRT participated in our development process of our New BBG G5 Competition Clutch Kits.. "1000 RWTRQ plus" is some serious power and sounds like the perfect candidate for a triple disc.. A good clutch is definitely one of the best upgrades a Viper owner can do!

    Kool stuff and good luck with the power gods .

    BAD BOYZZ GARAGE
    Toddy

    =DISTRIBUTORS OF POWER=:usa:
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2014

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