Pre-Oiling and Accumulator system packages- FEEDBACK PLEASE

[Torquemonster]

Great work Dan.

When I see a cold start, short run engine last 500,000 miles like a warm long distance engine will often run - I'll accept that pre-lube has no anti-wear benefits - but I've never known a short distance engine (that seldom gets a chance to get hot) do those miles - they always wear out.

Everyone knows that a car that gets long runs will last a LOT longer than a car that only gets short runs - and although other factors come into it - wear is one. The oils do leave a film but it does not reduce cold wear to ZERO as implied by Tom. There is wear - it is just small but accumulates over time.

Is the anti-wear on start up enough to justify the expense of an accumulator? MAybe not - but it is A FREE side benefit of having one that was bought mainly to protect the engine under those big long sweepers - which IS WORTH the cost for those that have run bearings without one.

 

[Fast Viper Dan]

Viper Days, Willow Springs 2002.
Side note here. We lost three engines in our Panoz race cars. Each of them failed at the same place on the track. The front straight. There is a long sweeper that leads to the front straight that is vary fast. We felt the problem was that we ran out of oil. We added 3 qt. accusumps to provide a back up. We had two different electric valves delivered to us. The first one was full open in both directions when activated by the ignition on switch. The second valve we tried made more sense to me. It has a limited flow to fill the sump but full flow to feed back to the motor. The idea there was that the pan needs to recover as well as the sump if there is a need for the sump to dump. In other words as the pan starts to recover we did not want the sump to fill at a high rate starving the motor. The slow filling valve allows the motor to maintain good pressure.
Well worth the money. It's also nice to see 25 to 30 psi oil pressure before starting the engine.
I agree that most cars last a long long time with out a pre oilier but most cars are not worked vary hard. Do you need a pre oilier in your Viper ? I don't have one in mine. I don't race my Viper more than an occasional track day and then I am not pushing the engine as hard as I could. I find smooth driving makes good lap times not 6K down the straight-a-way.
Back to the thread. I think that Dan putting a kit together is a good idea. I own a machine shop and some time take these things for granted. Not every one can fab a bracket or clamp. I say build it and it will sell. It is also a service to the club and that is Good!

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Last entry be me on this, since danders seem to be up...

Fast Viper Dan and Torquemonster make the point well.

FVD's experience shows that in an all-out race car, if you aren't using a swinging pick-up or dry sump, an accusump gives you enough oil to survive. I agree it's a significant band-aid.

Torquemonster also shows that there are much more significant factors than just start-up that contribute to wear, since he's innocently combined comments regarding starting and low oil temperature operation. Those are two different mechanisms for engine wear (low film thickness vs. low temperature and additive effectiveness.) In fact, the most significant change in the new API SL category was to include the Nissan KA24E engine test to evaluate valve train wear during "Granny" short trip-cold oil driving conditions. Notice the technical community did not include a cold starting wear test... (Sorry, my dander is showing.)

And Final, I apologize for any negative publicity, since I've also tested the waters of providing cost-efficient Viper components and see it's not the clear sailing it seems it could be. Back to Dan's comment that not everyone can design, fabricate, and produce a bracket - that's far more impressive a feat that anyone gives it credit. Good luck.

 

[dansauto]

What about "post oilers" for cooling turbos after you shut off the motor?

 

[Viper Specialty]

What about them exactly...? Are you asking if I can mae them up? Or the theory behind them, etc?

 

[Martin D]

Dan, Per our Email conversation - put me down for one when you are ready to sell!!!

Thanks for the hard work!!!!

Regards,

 

[dansauto]

What about them exactly...? Are you asking if I can mae them up? Or the theory behind them, etc?

yes, can you make them up. I don't like the turbo timer, that just leaves you motor running after you turn it off. I don't want to accidently coke the bearings if I make a few 1/4 mile runs then shut the car off.

 

[Viper Specialty]

yes, I could rig something for you, I just have to know a little more about the project.

Honestly though, a Turbo-TImer and an After Oiler really dont do much when used SEPARATLY, they need to be used as a pair. I am sure we can figure something out for you-no worries.

Let me know.

 

[proracer1]

I would be interested in one. When I start my car it takes a few seconds B4 I get oil pressure. I have talked to Sean Roe and RM (they built the Tomahawk) about doing the same thing (a Pre Oiler). So if you can come up with a package I would be in.

 

[Viper Specialty]

I will be working on the "order form" for this package over the next day or two.

We are moving ahead with this due to great overall feedback.

Thanks guys!

 

[LarryJ]

I would be interested, but my only concern are these so called "simple instructions". After reading this thread I have come to the conclusion that you know alot about this thing, but have found that sometimes people with a good working knowledge of something have a hard time dumbing things down enough for morons like myself to understand. I don't have a problem taking stuff off, putting things on, running wires, or even drilling, but only if I know exactly what I'm doing ahead of time.

 

[Viper Specialty]

when I say simple, I mean SIMPLE. to install you will need:

-drill
-2 drill bits
-1" wrench
-small socket set
-ruler

And thats it...

measure and mark a line after removing belly pan, mark and drill 5-6 holes, bolt system down. drill 4 evenly spaced small holes in Passenger frame rail, mount hose. Remove 1 oil line from Oil Filter Adapter, tighten T fitting in line of oil hose. Run 1 wire to "foglight area", crimp fitting. DONE.

"How it works" and how to use it will be another section. explaining the best way to do an oil change, the best way to pre-lube, what to do to make it act as an accumulator, etc. (all of which do not require any further work)

PS- I aced Technical Writing class... LOL, I promise not to let my Engineering Side show through!

 

[DEVILDOG]

Final,
My target for this educational missle is that engines do not wear under starting conditions enough to warrant pre-oiling.

Tom,
Curious as to how long you can safely go between starts and be protected by the chemical additives in the oil?

 

[DEVILDOG]

Final,
My target for this educational missle is that engines do not wear under starting conditions enough to warrant pre-oiling.

Tom,
Curious as to how long you can safely go between starts and be protected by the chemical additives in the oil?

BUMP???

 

[Steve Miehe]

Dan:

I'm interested in such a pre-lubing device as well. Reducing wear at start-up is a must.

 

[Viper Specialty]

UPDATE: to all those interested;

I am currently working on a "pricing sheet" so to speak. Only hold up is digging up all of my personal receipts from when I fabricated my own system, to determine pricing on options/parts not available from Accusump direct. I am pushing to have it completed by the end of this weekend, and begin taking orders!

(reminder to self: [email protected] would like purchase info ASAP, does not currently have ViperClub.org posting rights)

 

[Ray W]

Dan, I am interested in your system.

 

[Go Fast For Life]

Dan,

I will be interested in getting one of your systems also. My car is in storage until spring. So it will be March or April before I buy one.

Go Fast

 

[joe117]

I'm with Ron,
He said he was,
"concerned about the risks associated with the added plumbing, valves and cylinders. Felt the risk of pressure loss due to component failure greater than the perceived benefit of the pre-oiler function."

Any of you track roadracers out there may need to look into improved oiling. There seems to be a real oil starvation problem that needs fixing one way or another.

But, anyone who just wants a pre oiler on his street car for reduced engine wear, need's to think about the risk of all the plumbing and such that comes with any pre oiler.

 

[Steve Miehe]

Dan:

Understand that you are digging through receipts....what will the ballpark cost be?

 

[Viper Specialty]

I am estimating kit cost to be approx 700, delivered.

As far as the concern with plumbing, I dont really see it. the Viper has external plumbing from the factory, which lends itself to concern to begin with. The quality of the compnents I am using make the Viper's stock oil lines look like GARBAGE. (In fact, when I changed my oil lines to aftermarket due to a radiator, I discovered that BOTH of my oil lines were almost to the point of failure...on a stock car at 5K miles!!!) Even if you somehow developed a leak, it wouldnt be fast enough to cause damage before it was noticed. Also, if you opt to go with the double-valved QD fitting, you can remove the pre-oiler, and still drive your car without it should something ever happen.

I believe once I get a few of these kits out, all f the plumbing fears will disappear. These things are built for use in combat...lol

 

[joe117]

I'm not saying the extra plumbing is a serious risk.

I'm saying that a $700 pre oiler on a street engine doesn't make sense when it comes to reducing engine wear.

Adding in the slight extra risk of component failure makes a street engine pre oiler less than desirable in my opinion.

Road race cars have real oiling problems that need to be addressed. If a pre oiler will solve those problems, get one.

I'm just saying it isn't needed on a street engine.

 

[Viper Specialty]

OK Guys, I just finished the order sheet for 1 of 2 versions of the system. I am sending an e-mail to everyone in this thread who showed interest in the kit. However, what I need is this: 1 person who is mechanically inclined, has access to a lift, and a little free time on their hands.

I will knock 100.00$ off the first kit to be sold as a "test kit", in order to check instructions, pricing, assembly, etc, etc.

First person to e-mail me back is it!

PS- DONT E-MAIL UNTIL I SEND OUT THE FORM. just to be sure you qualify for this version. Please read the form.

 

[Viper Specialty]

PS- VipeRay and Go Fast For Life, Please send me your e-mails, Thanks!

 

[Viper Specialty]

SENT

 

[Viper Specialty]

Ray White has claimed his position as "Number 1" lol.

I will post as soon as the test kit is installed, and all kinks are worked out.

 

[jrkermode]

Final,

I received my order form. Thank you. However, I have some additional questions.

How much "pressure on time" does each of the systems provide?

The tranny tunnel is a great place for the tank, but a lousy place for the air fill and gauge (I know Accusump includes the gauge, but doesn't it make more sense to simply use a tire pressure gauge?). Will the Gen I kit's air fill valve be in a more air pressure maintenance friendly position?

 

[Viper Specialty]

JRKERMODE- to answer your questions:

While it is difficult to give accurate times in all situations, I will give you some that I HAVE measured:

All measurements are related to a 3Qt system, set up at 20 PSI. (20 PSI renders approximatly a 2.5 Qt system, but it is much more stable than a 3 Qt set up at the "usual" 10 PSI. I will set the base pressures depending on what the customer plans to use it for)

Engine COLD (Winter time, 30 degrees and under): I have seen times in excess of 15 minutes at VERY low temps, this makes for VERY good pre-lubing when starting an engine that sits over winter. I am serious, no exaggeration on this time.

Engine COLD (Summer Time, figure 65-85 degrees): approx 1-2 minutes, depending on ambient temp.

Engine HOT (Times taken immediatly after shutdown): 15-30 seconds, depending on how hot the car was before shutoff.

Lastly in response to the gauge: With the accusumps Piston Type setup keeping air and oil completely separate, there is no need for any maintanence. The gauge is only there so you are able to check the pressure durring a "check up time", which should be done every year- just in case you have a small leak, etc. I use certain fittings so that I am able to position the gauge where it CAN be seen WITHOUT removing the unit from the tunnel, you simply look in the tunnel with a flashlight.

I myself just did my first annual check, hasnt dropped at all, in over a year. The piston contains o-rings, and makes a VERY good seal, which is always lubricated to prevent drying.

PS- Yes, the Gen-1 kit would lend itself to be more "maintanence friendly", though it should not be needed in normal cases.

 

[proracer1]

Hurry up will ya....LOL

 

[Viper Specialty]

lol, I already placed the order with Accusump, it already on the way. I am trying to get this "test kit" out the door ASAP. should be in Ray's hands by next week.