Puttin 96-99 pistons in a 01-02

[bluestreak]

I have been thinking about trying to get the best of both worlds with the Viper and was wondering how much it would cost or if anyone has tried buying an 01 or 02 and getting the forged 96-99 pistons so that way you have the best of both worlds forged motor and ABS. Oh yeah and the lumpy cam too.

Whadyya think


BTW I am very close to purchasing a 99 and would upgrade the brakes but still think that having ABS would still be better.

 

[ROGUE]

If you're going through the trouble of rebuilding the bottom end put some decent parts in it.

And the stock ABS is lame, it comes in entirely too early and the 2 channel proportioning is mediocre at best.

Call JE/CP and order good pistons, nice set of rods, and maybe a set of program billet main caps. Then learn the virtues of threashold braking w/o relying on a lame electronic bandaid.

 

[bluestreak]

If you're going through the trouble of rebuilding the bottom end put some decent parts in it.

And the stock ABS is lame, it comes in entirely too early and the 2 channel proportioning is mediocre at best.

Call JE/CP and order good pistons, nice set of rods, and maybe a set of program billet main caps. Then learn the virtues of threashold braking w/o relying on a lame electronic bandaid.

Well which would you rather have then if they were the same price. and 01/02 with abs or a 98/99 with forged bottom end. I plan on getting around 600-650 N/A at some point.

 

[ROGUE]

Well which would you rather have then if they were the same price. and 01/02 with abs or a 98/99 with forged bottom end. I plan on getting around 600-650 N/A at some point.

97-99 without a doubt. I honestly HATE the ABS on my 01, so much so I disabled it. IMO the 01' "upgrades" were a serious downgrade. ABS which is pathetic if you drive the car even remotely hard, weaker cam, and quieter but substantially weaker pistons... riiight. The only reason I would even buy another 01-02 was if I absolutely had to have one of the awesome colors (sapphire, steel grey, or bumble bee), or if you plan to tear into the motor anyway and just want a newer year car just to say you have one.

Is that 650 N/A at the wheels? If so it's going to take a good bit of work and you'll be going into the bottom end anyway so don't worry about it.

 

[bluestreak]

no more like 550-590 rw

 

[carl B]

Sean Roe does a set of forged pistons for the cream puffs.

You cant just fit pre 2000 pistons in a cream puff as the rods are longer too!

So you are faced with rods and piston swap or a set of after market 2000 onward forged pistons.

Or I have a set of used 1000 mile old roe pistons already mounted on cream puff rods.

I have no use for them as I have had to change rods too now

Carl

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Rogue, if you disable ABS, and the OEM rear calipers are 43mm in size, I know from the experimenting I've done that would be a little too large and the rears would lock first. How do you work this out, since I didn't think (but don't know) that the ABS system still had a "mechanical" proportioning valve? Thanks.

And hopefully you meant 3-channel, like LF, RF, and rear?

 

[bluestreak]

Rogue if you disabled the ABS then I have to assume you are an avid racer which I'm not at this time probably 4hrs track time at Road Atlanta which definitely puts a heck of a load on the brakes. So keep that in mind that for beginners ABS can still be a helpful tool unless it is really that bad.

 

[VIPER BAZ UK]

Also interseted in this idea........
02 viper
Roe Racing pistons/stock rods
97 Cam

 

[Joseph Dell]

pistons are slightly different spec on the 97-99 vs. 2000-2002. 3.995 vs. 3.997 piston size.

 

[ROGUE]

Rogue, if you disable ABS, and the OEM rear calipers are 43mm in size, I know from the experimenting I've done that would be a little too large and the rears would lock first. How do you work this out, since I didn't think (but don't know) that the ABS system still had a "mechanical" proportioning valve? Thanks.

And hopefully you meant 3-channel, like LF, RF, and rear?

finger slip, yeah 3 channel is what I meant. I thought it would be an issue as well but using different compound pads F&R has let me set it up very well thus far. Best bet would be to install an inline proportioning valve to the rear brakes though.

pistons are slightly different spec on the 97-99 vs. 2000-2002. 3.995 vs. 3.997 piston size.

Yes but the cylinder bore is the same on the 96-02 cars. The only reason the 00+ are .002 oversized is because they are cast. Forged pistons need a little more clearance due to the greater thermal expansion rate. This is also why you can sometimes hear a little piston slap at startup on the 96-99 cars.

For all intensive purposes the piston size difference is meaningless.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

>finger slip, yeah 3 channel is what I meant. I thought it would be an issue as well but using different compound pads F&R has let me set it up very well thus far. Best bet would be to install an inline proportioning valve to the rear brakes though. <

I don't mean to start a dispute, but ABS cars have the same front calipers as non-ABS cars and with 40mm rears in the back (and prop valve disabled) and different compound tires (front to rear) I can get rear lock up; it is surprising that 43mm rears don't cause rear lock up regardless of pad material. Can I ask what front and rear pads you are using? (And when you'll install a proportioning valve? )

 

[fe4snake]

I have Gen 3 brakes on all 4's, but I'm getting too much brakes dust at the rear wheels and almost nothing in the front ones.

The car does not lock-up at all and braking feels a lot better than the Gen 2 setup. I did install a P-valve before the ABS module, but see no change.

Any ideas as to what could I do to fix this?

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Fix the brake dust or fix something about proportioning valve?

Might want to start a new thread on that, rather than under "96-99 pistons..."

 

[2002_Viper_GTS_ACR]

This thread is a week past dead.. but...

I'll give my input, because I am one of the few that ACTUALLY had that EXACT combo.

I wont say how I got it done, but took me knowing someone who had some great connections. My motor got rebuilt under warranty, and we asked if they didnt mind putting 96 parts in, instead of my 2002.

When the motor came back, it had the 96-99 forged pistons, the 96-97 708 cam (aka lumpy cam) and was balanced. My car stock made 410hp and 450tq. Then with no mods other then the rebuild (meaning all else being stock, no exhuast nothing), I got 430hp and 478tq. Then I put a set of T&Ds on it and a header + cat back exhaust system and I made 488hp and 525 tq. I was running 11.50's all day long at the track.. many many many time slips showing it, on stock oem pilots.

Point is, it works. But mine was done for free, so I accepted the 96/97 parts, but if I was paying, I DEFINITLY would put a set of JE pistons in it or SRP. Even Arrow will tell you that there are better pistons they can put in your motor IF its not warranty work.

Next, ABS.. Rogue, we're cool, but your dead wrong on this. I have road raced my Viper at least 6 full weekends at VIR and Mid Ohio and many auto-crosses. ABS works and is SOLID on these cars. I would take a ABS car ANY day of the week over a Forged Motor car. When I would take non-abs 99 ACR guys out in my car (02 ACR) the would be in AWE of the ABS, as I was able to nail the brakes after going in a lot deeper then they could, and my times showed the advantage.

Sorry, I know you own a ABS car, but I have owned one too, and I put 60,000 miles on mine, and I drove it on the race track many times, and obviously on the street tons. We disagree.

Add to that, that my new 06 coupe blows the gen 2 ABS away, and I'd say no F'ing way would I ever want a non ABS Viper.


Jon

 

[VIPER BAZ UK]

This thread is a week past dead.. but...

I'll give my input, because I am one of the few that ACTUALLY had that EXACT combo.

I wont say how I got it done, but took me knowing someone who had some great connections. My motor got rebuilt under warranty, and we asked if they didnt mind putting 96 parts in, instead of my 2002.

When the motor came back, it had the 96-99 forged pistons, the 96-97 708 cam (aka lumpy cam) and was balanced. My car stock made 410hp and 450tq. Then with no mods other then the rebuild (meaning all else being stock, no exhuast nothing), I got 430hp and 478tq. Then I put a set of T&Ds on it and a header + cat back exhaust system and I made 488hp and 525 tq. I was running 11.50's all day long at the track.. many many many time slips showing it, on stock oem pilots.

Point is, it works. But mine was done for free, so I accepted the 96/97 parts, but if I was paying, I DEFINITLY would put a set of JE pistons in it or SRP. Even Arrow will tell you that there are better pistons they can put in your motor IF its not warranty work.

Next, ABS.. Rogue, we're cool, but your dead wrong on this. I have road raced my Viper at least 6 full weekends at VIR and Mid Ohio and many auto-crosses. ABS works and is SOLID on these cars. I would take a ABS car ANY day of the week over a Forged Motor car. When I would take non-abs 99 ACR guys out in my car (02 ACR) the would be in AWE of the ABS, as I was able to nail the brakes after going in a lot deeper then they could, and my times showed the advantage.

Sorry, I know you own a ABS car, but I have owned one too, and I put 60,000 miles on mine, and I drove it on the race track many times, and obviously on the street tons. We disagree.

Add to that, that my new 06 coupe blows the gen 2 ABS away, and I'd say no F'ing way would I ever want a non ABS Viper.


Jon

Thanks for the reply
Just bought a set of diamond pistons via Roe Racing,Getting the 708 cam and a set of RR's and hopfully a set of Roe Racings heads....
Hopfully give me some good numbers as well..

 

[ROGUE]

Next, ABS.. Rogue, we're cool, but your dead wrong on this. I have road raced my Viper at least 6 full weekends at VIR and Mid Ohio and many auto-crosses. ABS works and is SOLID on these cars. I would take a ABS car ANY day of the week over a Forged Motor car. When I would take non-abs 99 ACR guys out in my car (02 ACR) the would be in AWE of the ABS, as I was able to nail the brakes after going in a lot deeper then they could, and my times showed the advantage.

Sorry, I know you own a ABS car, but I have owned one too, and I put 60,000 miles on mine, and I drove it on the race track many times, and obviously on the street tons. We disagree.

Add to that, that my new 06 coupe blows the gen 2 ABS away, and I'd say no F'ing way would I ever want a non ABS Viper.
Jon

I have yet to really beat on an 06', but personally don't care for the gen II ABS setup. We'll just agree to disagree, I'm ok with that, it's all a personal preference thing.

btw, where were you wed night? Didn't see you car at fuddruckers? I was in town and stopped by.

edit: I was looking for the ACR. If you drove the 06' I think I remember you pulling up and parking around the back side of the building, near that yellow thing with the umm.. "interesting" spoiler on it.

 

[2002_Viper_GTS_ACR]

Next, ABS.. Rogue, we're cool, but your dead wrong on this. I have road raced my Viper at least 6 full weekends at VIR and Mid Ohio and many auto-crosses. ABS works and is SOLID on these cars. I would take a ABS car ANY day of the week over a Forged Motor car. When I would take non-abs 99 ACR guys out in my car (02 ACR) the would be in AWE of the ABS, as I was able to nail the brakes after going in a lot deeper then they could, and my times showed the advantage.

Sorry, I know you own a ABS car, but I have owned one too, and I put 60,000 miles on mine, and I drove it on the race track many times, and obviously on the street tons. We disagree.

Add to that, that my new 06 coupe blows the gen 2 ABS away, and I'd say no F'ing way would I ever want a non ABS Viper.
Jon

I have yet to really beat on an 06', but personally don't care for the gen II ABS setup. We'll just agree to disagree, I'm ok with that, it's all a personal preference thing.

btw, where were you wed night? Didn't see you car at fuddruckers? I was in town and stopped by.

edit: I was looking for the ACR. If you drove the 06' I think I remember you pulling up and parking around the back side of the building, near that yellow thing with the umm.. "interesting" spoiler on it.

YES ! That was me !! And yes, I was relatively close to that monstrosity, one MIGHT call a viper.. but I chose not too

Really hate that I missed you there! Damn you should said hi, hell even Ron showed up and we later went and had some libations at a local bar !!

You have a pm, because it sounds like you are still here, and we def need to get up !!

Jon

PS. ABS rocks ;-) lol..

 

[bluestreak]

I forgot about the cam too. I still cant decide if I want the cam and forged pistons more or the ABS. Too much money to have both. Im leaning towards a Yellow 01 ACR but have a 99 GTS on the back burner. I have to agree though the ABS is a near must for a non pro road racer like myself. That's why the ACR is first on my list, but may be out of my price range.

 

[BoeingMan]

....all good posts but still no one has answered this man's original question as to how much it would cost.

I too am interested in the answer. How much it would cost to have someone do this for you.

Thanks

 

[Joseph Dell]

Prices will vary. A non-viper-tax engine shop will do a piston swap (labor, not parts) for 1000-1500. Places that charge viper tax have been known to charge as much as 12k just for the swap! Since i've done it a few times, i can tell you that the labor TIME is (and this is on the HIGH side): 4 hours to take it all apart, and 7 to put it back together. I can do it in much less (more like 3 and 5), but that's just me. Plus, you need to have the new pistons ready to go. if you are NOT doing new rods (and you don't NEED to, but for 650 why not??) then you have the time it takes to get a machine shop to press the pins.

Pistons run between 850 (diamond) to ~1200 (CP)
Rods, if you replace them, will be ~650 (eagle h-beam) to ~1600 (oliver).
keep in mind you need to pay for the labor to have the rods pressed onto the pistons.
and you need rod bearings (~250)
and head gaskets (~220)
and intake manifold gaskets (~30)
and themostat gasket (appx ~15)
and some RTV (~5)

i'm sure i'm missing something, but these are the costs associated w/ the swap. the major ones anyway.

happy?

 

[BoeingMan]

happy?

Why yes, yes I am.

Matt

 

[BoeingMan]

,,,And thank you very much for your post. It was most excellent.

Matt

 

[BoeingMan]

Joe Dell are you removing/replacing your pistons/rods with the engine in or out of the vehicle?

Matt

 

[Joseph Dell]

Pistons/rods can be done easily w/ the engine IN the vehicle. If you remove the engine, it is easier. but it isn't hard with the engine installed.

Doing it again, i'd leave the engine IN!

And it's Joseph... not Joe.

JD

 

[BoeingMan]

Joseph Dell would you like to help me do mine? Let me know when your in town. I'll make it worth your while. I'm in Indianapolis. :&gt

Matt

 

[EllowViper]

Is not balancing the new rotating mass a significant issue? Must not be since the issue has not raised its head for either just a forged piston swap and a piston/rod swap.

 

[Joseph Dell]

Boeingman - if the car were here, i'd help you with it. but i got a day job so i can't break free for that long. and a wife and kid keep me home a lot too.

Ellow makes a good point. make sure when you purchase pistons for the swap that they weigh the SAME as the stockers. do this and you don't have to balance. if you don't do this, you COULD run the risk of having some noise due to being out of balance.

As for rods, a little research can get you the weight. same w/ pistons... so you can get the new set-up to weigh the same as the old. balance problem = solved.

do NOT do what I participated in once: purchased a set of pistons w/o checking the weight. pistons were soooooo heavey that even removing material from both the pistons AND the rods (a standard way to reduce weight) wasn't enough to get us where we needed to be for weight. We _could_ have used the pistons but instead got another set w/ the proper weight.

Those pistons are forsale in the classifieds, BTW... cheap!



JD

 

[ROGUE]

Joseph Dell would you like to help me do mine? Let me know when your in town. I'll make it worth your while. I'm in Indianapolis. :&gt

Matt

If you want to bring it to Chicago I'd be more than happy to help. Or for the right price we'll bring the tools to your pad and do it.

 

[Joseph Dell]

Matt - Talk to Rogue. he knows his sh*t and can help out.

The "tools" required aren't many... it is just a matter of knowing which sockets to use!