Thanks McLaren and DC for the new engine ! (Story of the new VC computer)

Schulmann

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This past Friday the regional presidents had a great presentation from DC on the new Viper engine. The presentation lasted 3 hours !+

It is amazing how the McLaren & Ricardo folks helped Dodge use their race proven technologies. There was and there is still a really close collaboration between these companies. Guys, we have got a real 4 Gen high tech Race Viper that we can call the McLarren Generation.

During this presentation we had access to about 10-12 engineers to ask them questions about the new engine. They were friendly and open while keeping some future secrets. These engineers are working very hard to provide us a highly reliable race engine.

There are two major changes which required a lot of work: CAM and PCM (they call it now Venom Control). Especially the new VC device required a lot of work. It is a brand new computer built from ground by DC and Motorola. Both the hardware and the software are new. The new engine management program is able to handle 1000 times more signals than the old PCM. The Venom control is the basement of a new generation high tech Vipers.


DC has spent and still spends millions of dollars to develop this new Viper engine. The new engine should be highly reliable. All mechanical improvements are coming from race proven technologies. I think there are 5 dynos running full time this new engine. Believe me the new engine is highly tested. But really the challenge is the new Venom Control device and not the mechanical improvements. Engineers explained that they have done everything before deciding to replace the Old PCM from the early 90's.


Unfortunately the VC is so sophisticated that it will be harder for tuners to alter its signals. According to engineers the last GEN 3 vipers from 2006 should gain in value since they are the last generation Vipers with the old PCM. However they insured us that they will do their best to make performance Venom controllers available through Mopar.


One of the mechanical improvements that I saw and nobody is talking about is stunning. I am talking about the PCV system. Racers know very well how hard it is to breathe the engine. Engineers paid a lot of attention to the new valve cover breathers. The valve covers were redesigned several times on the new engine to prevent oil from entering the intake. Each dyno had a very “accurate catch can” to measure the oil breath from the valve covers. Guess what ? They were all empty and clean … It is a very good news for racers ! What stunned me was the huge quantity of vapor that I saw during down shifting in these catch cans without the oil !


I am confident that there will be a GEN 5 Viper with more technology from McLarren and a new body. The 600HP is just a start ... At DC everything is ready for the production. They are running the last test cycles on the production engine … Keep your 2006 Viper its value should increase and be ready to order the new 2008 !

IMG_4717.jpg


IMG_4712.jpg


IMG_4713.jpg
 

Finally got it !

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Re: Thanks McLaren and DC !

This is just killing me!! Sold my 05 back in October and it looks like I will be Viperless to at least the summer.
I am thinking about smashing my computer so that the torture could end!!!
 

RMBSRT

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Re: Thanks McLaren and DC !

SWEET!!!! The deal I got on my 2006 Coupe is getting better every day!!

Thanks for the info Schulmann!
 

Fast Freddy

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Re: Thanks McLaren and DC !

This is just killing me!! Sold my 05 back in October and it looks like I will be Viperless to at least the summer.
I am thinking about smashing my computer so that the torture could end!!!

LOL, now thats funny
 

Fast Freddy

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Re: Thanks McLaren and DC for the new engine !

Unfortunately the VC is so sophisticated that it will be harder for tuners to alter its signals. According to engineers the last GEN 3 vipers from 2006 should gain in value since they are the last generation Vipers with the old PCM. However they insured us that they will do their best to make performance Venom controllers available through Mopar

this new computer is configured in a way to interface with OBD-3 when it is implemented in the future :evilmad:

unfortunately that is going to be a HUGE problem that the aftermarket tuners, etc will have to deal with as modding this car to make more power and yet still pass emmisions will become a monumental challenge :curse:

thus the reason that older vipers will retain their value just like the late 60's muscle cars with their HIGH compression gas guzzling BIG blocks. ever tightening federally mandated emmisions control devices such as OBD-3 just will make it harder for not only the car manufacturers to squeeze more power from their motors but the aftermarket as well. back in the 90's OBD-2 was looked upon as a major blow to performance but then soon everbody figured out how to make if better than the old way and eventually make more power. unfortunately OBD-3 is gonna be much more heavily regulated with black box info devices that record history and real time GPS data as well. this just might proove to be the death nail to the HIGH performance engine scene as far as legally getting anything done. :confused:
 
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Schulmann

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Re: Thanks McLaren and DC for the new engine !

The problem is not the OBD-3 for tuners. But the number of devices that this new Venom Control will handle ! According to the McLarren and DC engineers the challange for tuners will be to alter the signals while not killing the engin. The VC will handle the CAM and the throttle body which is something highly sophisticated. If these signals are miss handled you can kill your engin and yourself including ! Imagine that you want to stop and your engine continues to accelerate !!!!



OBD-3 is a big challange for the DC engineers but not for tuners. Cars are emission tested at idle. At WOT you can do whatever you want. I can tell you that the DC engineers did really wild things at WOT. According to them the overlap is so huge at WOT that the engin would not idle below 1500rpm. Their problem is to make the engin run clean at idle and maintain 14.7 AFR while cruising on highway.


Before this VC we could only alter ignition and fuel signals. Now tuners could alter cam position, thottle body position, ignition and fuel signals ... And again these McLaren and DC engineers needed a lot of time and test cycles to put together the new Venon program. According to them tuners will have very hard time to do a better job on the stock engin.
 

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Re: Thanks McLaren and DC for the new engine !

Schulman- Do you have any high-res or close up pictures of this new engine?

If I am not mistaken, the block, timing cover, and oil pan appears to be the same as the current engine, or at least similar enough that their may be some usable parts for the current cars off of it.
 

Fast Freddy

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Re: Thanks McLaren and DC for the new engine !

ford has already engineered some traction control management devices into their new trucks and mustang GT that aftermarket tuners know how to defeat but are unwilling to do so for fear of a lawsuit. in some ways the future of aftermarket hot rodding does not so look bright IMO. especially when you consider all the problems in the middle east and that oil supplies are running thin and the price of gas is goin up. i believe that we are on the verge of the same thing happening to the world of high performance cars that we saw happen in the early 70's. when this all goes down the cars that currently reside in my garage will all be barrett-jackson material.
 

SSSSE YA

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Re: Thanks McLaren and DC for the new engine !

Thanks for the nice post and information, its all good news for the Viper Family. I can not wait to see the new generation(s) of Viper(s) now.
Hope is a Good thing..Thanks DCX.


:2tu: :usa: :D
 

Fast Freddy

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Re: Thanks McLaren and DC for the new engine !

one more thing........the owner of my local ford dealer told me that within the next 2 years that ford is gonna require that all new trucks and cars must be serviced at a ford dealer only to retain the factory warranty. if you even so much as get your oil changed anywhere other than a ford dealer your warranty will be voided. the end is drawing near. start stockpiling all the current generation of hot rods now before BIG brother get there hands on them
 
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Schulmann

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The entire oiling system was upgraded. One of the DC engineers said "it was turbo charged". The oiling system was improved because it is responsible to provided high pressure oil to the cam positionning system. This requires also a special oil filter. If the oiling system was also very good before now its reliability got to the level of an F-16 airplane. All the technology used for the oiling system comes from race proven applications. They explained us where it is used but I forgot it.

There is a sensor at the cockpit side of the engin checking if the cam is at the desired position. If not it will stop the engin. The oiling system and espetially the oil pan was modified such a way that the engin will never miss any oil no matter what you do.

Guys, for the price of a street car you will get a Competion Coupe Engine !!!!
Before you had to spend +30000$ to have a similar engin !!!

The head was redesigned such a way that it could fit on a GEN 3 Viper ! It flows 23% more air than the 06 head ! Look for new parts at the Mopar counter !!!!

The block is the same but cylinders were bored 1mm larger. So 2008 pistons will not fit on a 2006 Viper.
 

Fast Freddy

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Re: Thanks McLaren and DC for the new engine !

the goverments evertightening noose on the automobile world is so bad that it killed the ford GT after only a mere 2 years of production! why is that you say? because the cars ultra exotic body style would not meet the 2008 federally mandated crash tests. in order for the car to be built in such a way as to pass these regulations the body style of the car would have to be so drastically altered that the car would not have any resemblance to a ford GT-40 whatsoever. here is the most important part about all of this..........

because ford knew back in 2002 that the new regulations were gonna be put in effect in 2008 they raced to put the new GT into production for 2 years only because they knew this was their last chance ever to build the car.

and so it is with this new VC computer for the gen-4 viper. DC engineers have built this thing in such a way that it will interface with OBD-3 when it comes out in the future. ever tightening emissions regulations, etc are taking away your freedoms. :nono:
 

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The head was redesigned such a way that it could fit on a GEN 3 Viper ! It flows 23% more air than the 06 head ! Look for new parts at the Mopar counter !!!!

That is MORE great news!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Any mention of what HP increase this would mean on the '03-'06 cars?
 

Fast Freddy

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Schullmann - sorry man, i didn't mean to hijack your thread and rain on your parade. since all of my references are ford based one might take what i say as to mean that FORD SUX, lol. call me paranoid but the HP wars came to an end in this country once before and i still think it can happen again. but from the looks of my replies to this thread it might just be coming to an end for ford only, lol
 
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Schulmann

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By the way, the Viper McLaren G4 complies with these new crash regulations ... :) and will comply with the OBD-3.

Regarding the Ford GT ... it was just a show car. It never raced seriously.

Corvette engineers will have a very hard time to beat the McLaren Viper while staying emission OBD-3 compliant.
 

Fast Freddy

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By the way, the Viper McLaren G4 complies with these new crash regulations ... :) and will comply with the OBD-3.

Regarding the Ford GT ... it was just a show car. It never raced seriously.

Corvette engineers will have a very hard time to beat the McLaren Viper while staying emission OBD-3 compliant.

i agree with your comment here about the vette but the GT is a different story. the GT is based on the 1960's ford GT-40's which went to LE MANS for its first time ever in 1966 and finished 1, 2 and 3 in front of the ferraris, porsches, etc. the GT-40's went on to win this race 3 more years in a row as well. that is a HUGE accomplishment even by todays standards :usa:
 

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Schulman, If I am hearing you correctly... since the block is the same (overbore is irrellevant, and could always be done at any machines shop) that means that the oiling system SHOULD be usable in the previous blocks? I figure that the oil pan is a total redesign with a swing arm system, and more than likely, the timing cover has been changed as well to allow for a new type of oil pump. If so, I wonder if some "mixing and matching" can be done?

The heads also seem to have similar numbers to the Stryker castings... hmm... (about 23% more than stock)
 

George Murray

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Man, this news just gets better and better. I gotta admit, I was disappointed when at VOI9 DC was mum about this new car, the engine, the technology.

It was definitely worth the wait. Gotta love what Ma Mopar's bringing to the table this time! GO DODGE!
 
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Schulmann

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Daniel, I can't really answer your question it would be just a guess.

The only thing retrofitable is the head for now.
The head is one of a kind state of art work.
It's manufactured on double 3D CNC machine (Both tool and work plates are moving in 3D ) !

I think using these heads, GEN 3 Vipers could be easily boosted to 600hp using a good CAM. The only trouble is that they would not comply with new emission standards. But who cares for older Vipers ... DC and McLaren had to find a solution to make the new package emission compliant. This is how they came up with the articulated CAM.

They are working on finding a solution to retrofit the tranny which itself was also improved. According to the lucky guys who drove it, you fill a difference right away you drive this Viper. Shifting is much easier and precise.

The Viper is here to stay for a couple of years more (until 2010 at least) !


Now that the new Engine is public you can understand why there was so much secrecy about this. DC and McLaren are light years ahead of the competition !
 

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Re: Thanks McLaren and DC for the new engine !

Thanks Schulmann,

I am just contemplating things to come.

Right now in the back of my mind I am thinking 06 block w/custom internals (.1 liters is not worth decrease in block stength), 03-06 computer, 08 oiling system, and (modified 06/stryker heads/08 heads) would be a winning combo for MAJOR horsepower capability (Forced Induction)

I am also thinking that if these heads bolt on, the intake will as well.(but perhaps may not clear coil packs, which rasies the question, swap over of coils/new valve covers?) The aftermarket could easily make an adapter plate or design a new set of manual T-bodies for the current Gen-3 cars... would save a lot of hassle with extrude honing, etc of the current manifolds.
 

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IMG_4712.jpg


Awesome news on the new motor.

A couple of things to keep in mind - there is a claim of 675 hp / 650 tq from the motor above. that's a pretty good increase from some tuning. my guess is that the measurement is without cats though.

but still, let's encourage Mopar to step up offering some performance parts.

Another thing - I noticed the modified motor has headers from our local AZ exhaust pro - Belanger. They bolted right on. The new heads with this fantastic flow rate and better cooling can go on a Gen 3 motor. pretty good news.
 

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Judging from what I can see, the only shared part is the block... but then again, thats all that matters. Damn near everything from this engine should fit on the current cars, and thats a good thing! Oil pan/timing covers will be on backorder... I can see it now.

I did notice the Cam Position Sensor is missing however... thats one needed addition to swap over. But it raises another question;

Did the engineers give any kind of information relating to how exactly this VVT system works? I am inclined to believe it either has some type of variable length lifters, a "cam within a cam" that has variable Int/Ex lobes, or perhaps some type of variable rockers...?

Lastly, I noticed that they moved the PS reservior off of the pump. I am assuming that they did this for clearance purposes? Does the 2008 still retain its hydraulic cooling system?
 

Vipermann

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Like I was asking in an earlier thread ... the new heads fitting a Gen3 is great news, and that probably ensures that the new headers (and side exhaust) may also fit, since it's the same block in the same chasis, and thus, hopefully the all of the same exhaust pipe flange/hanger locations (easy-to-install)

New Gen4 heads and headers & side exhaust might be quite a nice Mopar upgrade for a Gen3 (especially if they are less expensive and less loud than some of the 'race' headers currently out there)
 
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Schulmann

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VVT was the top secret part of all this. VVT required to rework the PCM which gave birth to the Venom Control. The cam sensor is in the back of the engin under the intake somewhere. There is a hydraulic switch in the front of the engin which changes the position of the exhaust lobs. This switch works with high pressure oil.
 

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VVT was the top secret part of all this. VVT required to rework the PCM which gave birth to the Venom Control. The cam sensor is in the back of the engin under the intake somewhere. There is a hydraulic switch in the front of the engin which changes the position of the exhaust lobs. This switch works with high pressure oil.

Hmm... interesting. This information along with another post I remember from back a ways about this engine involving "lighter exhaust valve lifters" leads me to believe that I may be right in my original assumption that this engine has some sort of "variable length" lifter, and higher oil pressure makes it pump up, resulting in more lift. When it is relaxed, it has less lift.

If I am wrong, then it must be some type of hydralic camshaft, which uses hydraulic pressure to move the exhaust lobes. Probably pressure biases like a stepper assembly and constantly adjusts using some type of cam position sensor.

Either way....... you better believe I will be snagging one of these blocks as soon as they hit the market. I AM CURIOUS DAMMIT!

Also raises another point: since it is still based on a gen-3 block, there is no way it can be called a Gen-4...that settles the debate.
 

Marv S

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SRT called it a "phaser". oil pressure controls the movement of the exhaust lobe. At idle the exhaust valve closes earlier.

If I am wrong, then it must be some type of hydralic camshaft, which uses hydraulic pressure to move the exhaust lobes. Probably pressure biases like a stepper assembly and constantly adjusts using some type of cam position sensor.
 

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