Upgrading brakes GTS-96

syldogRT/10

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I would like to do some thing with my 94 brakes also with out breaking the bank. Is it worth just buying better calipers?
 

jdoc7

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For $600 or so bucks, Tom's rear brake upgrade can't be beat. Awesome performance, huge and noticeable improvement in feel and no front wheel lock up. Even better if you add SS brake lines. Customer service is phenomenal. I can't see why anyone would go with a Stoptech for $4000 over this other than looks. These drop right in and look stock. You won't be disappointed.
 
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grcforce327

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Definitely call Tom!He will send you his to put on,then you send your old ones back!No down time!!!

:headbang: :headbang: :eek: :eek: :headbang: :headbang:
 

Cop Magnet

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If my stock '01 GTS rears will fit, I'll sell you the calipers, rotors, and a set of used Brakeman #3's for cheap.
 

DEVILDOG

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For $600 or so bucks, Tom's rear brake upgrade can't be beat. Awesome performance, huge and noticeable improvement in feel and no front wheel lock up. Even better if you add SS brake lines. Customer service is phenomenal. I can't see why anyone would go with a Stoptech for $4000 over this other than looks. These drop right in and look stock. You won't be disappointed.

The StopTech Big Brake Kit for 17" wheels is a front brake kit and costs $2295 not $4000.
 

jdoc7

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The StopTech Big Brake Kit for 17" wheels is a front brake kit and costs $2295 not $4000.

Umm....are you aware that the stock front calipers are actually bigger than the Stoptech front calipers? More surface area to bite=more stopping power. The only reason why anyone would go with the Stoptechs is if they did both the front and rear. Do a search on Tom's rear caliper upgrade and you will find his calculations on his kit versus a 4 piston Stoptech upgrade. We don't want MORE front stopping power, that's just gonna cause more front wheel lock because the rears ****. It just makes sense to upgrade the rears. So, your quote about pricing doesn't hold. To get comparable stopping with upgraded rears and stock fronts, you would have to get a a whole front and rear set of Stoptechs which is actually like $5000!
 

DEVILDOG

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The StopTech Big Brake Kit for 17" wheels is a front brake kit and costs $2295 not $4000.

Umm....are you aware that the stock front calipers are actually bigger than the Stoptech front calipers? More surface area to bite=more stopping power. The only reason why anyone would go with the Stoptechs is if they did both the front and rear. Do a search on Tom's rear caliper upgrade and you will find his calculations on his kit versus a 4 piston Stoptech upgrade. We don't want MORE front stopping power, that's just gonna cause more front wheel lock because the rears ****. It just makes sense to upgrade the rears. So, your quote about pricing doesn't hold. To get comparable stopping with upgraded rears and stock fronts, you would have to get a a whole front and rear set of Stoptechs which is actually like $5000!

WRONG. The StopTech front caliper is smaller to allow the stock rear brake more bias...duh. Check StopTech's site for detailed info. and stopping distances. There are quite a few racers using StopTech. If you don't want them or like them fine just learn what you're talking about before criticizing the StopTechs. I'm simply responding to an owner asking for information on 17" brake options.
 

jdoc7

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WRONG. The StopTech front caliper is smaller to allow the stock rear brake more bias...duh. Check StopTech's site for detailed info. and stopping distances. There are quite a few racers using StopTech. If you don't want them or like them fine just learn what you're talking about before criticizing the StopTechs. I'm simply responding to an owner asking for information on 17" brake options. Does Tom's upgrade work on 17" rears?
#1 Re-read my posts and tell me where I criticized the STOPTECHS
#2 If you want to pay $2200 to get a smaller front caliper instead of $600 to enlarge the rears, all in attempts to reduce brake bias, then go right ahead.
 

bwagman

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To anyone,

How does one get information/details on Tom's rear brakes? Is there a website?

I would love to do this modification to my 2000 GTS as the brakes lock up a great deal especially at the autocross (it's VERY annoying)

Any help would be greatly appreciated

Thanks,
Ben
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jcaspar1

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You missed another advantage of the StopTech system which is better cooling with the two piece Aerotech rotors and cooler running calipers. Both Tom's rear rotors and the StopTech system are great additions and considering the cost of two piece, vaned rotors, the StopTech front system is a good deal. Actually, per StopTech, their 4 wheel system has very little if any stopping advantage over their 2 wheel system. They apparently released it as many people wanted a 4 wheel system for the look. It does offer better cooling for the rear brakes and allow you to use the same pad side front and rear. That's why I went with the front StopTech system. Tom's upgrade was just in development then, but is also a great addition to the stock brakes.

Stopping 60mph to 0
Stock Gen II Viper 155 ft. (Per Road and Track)
Stoptech Fronts 113 ft (per Stoptech)
Stoptech 4 wheel 113 ft (per Stoptech)



#1 Re-read my posts and tell me where I criticized the STOPTECHS
#2 If you want to pay $2200 to get a smaller front caliper instead of $600 to enlarge the rears, all in attempts to reduce brake bias, then go right ahead.
 

Tom F&L GoR

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Hi all, I'll summarize, hopefully being fair and factual, and somewhat historical. Please correct any comments that seem overly or subtly self serving.

Stoptech's front kit uses smaller pistons (36/40 instead of 38/42) to shift bias to the rear. The first rear upgrade effort was to match their brake clamping force distribution. Mathematically this is done with a 38mm rear combined with OEM fronts and it provides the same balance as a 36mm (OEM) rear with Stoptech fronts.


186Brake_Balance_Table.JPG



The casting of the OEM rear caliper can tolerate a still larger piston, so the 40mm was born. It's still not too large and does not need an adjustable proportioning valve. Evidence that the Stoptech front only caliper setup is still front-biased comes from Chuck 98 RT/10 who has Stoptech fronts and then added 38mm calipers in the rear. Mathematically, he now has the same balance as OEM fronts and 40mm rears.

For everyday driving, autocross, and track day events (pad change, fluid change) the 40mm rear is plug and play. It's a few hour job, doesn't require cutting off the rear upright brake arms, uses all the OEM parts, and maintains the parking brake.

Continuing up the performance ladder is the four-wheel four piston caliper kit. It's not on the chart above because the rear bias would calculate to a huge amount. The math would point to any four piston rear caliper being about three pistons too large, and indeed an adjustable proportioning valve has to be added to dial down the clamping force and get back to the 20% rear bias range.

Why then have a large brake in the back? The component generating heat is the pad (against the rotor.) So that the heat isn't concentrated in a small area like the OEM pad (which makes it more difficult to maintain consistent friction performance since the temperature excursions will be larger) a larger pad is desirable. To have a larger pad, you need a larger caliper. The larger pad means you have more consistent brakes after the 100th hot lap, or some other very high heat energy transfer conditions. For the same reasons, a better cooling rotor is advantageous. In the rear there isn't the need for massive clamping force since a single piston caliper against the OEM rotor can always lock a wheel.

I've said (or tried to remember to say) if the braking levels are high enough to where heat transfer becomes the limiting factor, then using larger pads, larger diameter rotors, ducting or other forms of cooling become important (but remember we're talking about the back brakes, it's the fronts that will always generate much more heat.) Maybe another way of saying it is that the decision should be separated into 1) brake balance and 2) maximum heat transfer. That would bring up the details of what the braking system is really being asked to do.

Stoptech has some good technical papers on their site that have helped me. The URLs have changed a little since they were bought, so here is the current link.
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/tech_white_papers.shtml
 

Gavin

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Whether you go for Tom's setup or the stoptechs be aware that the drilled and slotted rotors are going produce the following results:
1. the drilled rotors will crack quicker than non-drilled rotors - they look pretty however
2. the slotted rotors are going to do a great job of getting rid of pad gasses under heavy use but they will grind up you pads into very fine dust very ******- agin under heavy use.

I have Stoptechs on my VRL race car with Nascar brake cooling fans. I go through a set of pads in a day at Viper Days with the fans off. With the fans on I get 3 days of track time, typically 4 sessions in a day. My setup is 14" fronts 13" rears with cooling ducts all round
The pads get used up by the ABS as well. The more I'm in the ABs the brake pad I use up.
Rear pads last about 4 weekends.

For the guy with the 2000 GTs doing autocross - note that stock Vipers come with a weight issue on the right front of the car - this corner is much lighter than the left, hence that wheel locks up first and will always flat spot first. Have your car corner weighted and it helps the problem.

I have no knowledge of Tom's setup so cannot comment.
The stock front caliper on the Gen 2 is a prolific heat generator and will boil the fluid way quicker than the Stoptech Caliper - The Stoptech setup WILL provide more effective braking BECAUSE the rotor, caliper and brake pad run cooler in track situations.

For a car that is not driven on a track there is no point in modifying the brakes, other than doing something with the rear part of the system which is about as useless as useless can be.

HOWEVER, if I was going to change the brake setup on a street GEN2 Viper there is only one solution to my mind - GEN 3 brakes.
Look at what you get
Greatly improved stopping power
ABS
Trackion control
Extremely good pad wear
All for about $5,000 - that not much money for the best stopping power out there.

TED MAY at Valaya racing here in California has this conversion down pat.
 

JUCD VPR

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To anyone,

How does one get information/details on Tom's rear brakes? Is there a website?

I would love to do this modification to my 2000 GTS as the brakes lock up a great deal especially at the autocross (it's VERY annoying)

Any help would be greatly appreciated

Thanks,
Ben
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I'm wondering the same thing? Is there a website?
 

Tom F&L GoR

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No website or store; Tator's Dodge installs them and the VCA forum generates lots of "word of mouth". (Thanks, everyone.) Have now sold over 70 pair, so it turned out to be more than the few side jobs I thought it would be! Just click my screen name and either PM or email me. I have an info sheet that has details I'll send you.
 

MacManInfi

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I have Tom's 40's in the rear of my '97 GTS and still have the proportioning valve. After the second rear brake bleed, they really came alive and made a big difference. The car brakes noticeably harder now and I haven't locked the fronts up since (on the street). The only drawback is that they still look stock, but then again, if you're autocrossing, that'll be a good thing. ;)
 

jcaspar1

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Tom. What were your final results with using the 38mm rear caliper with the StopTech fronts? It seems I could still use a little more rear bias and have been wondering about that.
 

Tom F&L GoR

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Jeff, you'll have to ask Chuck about that. It was a one-off experiment that did add more rear bias and based on his comments at the beginning of this thread, a good outcome.

I don't make the 38mm size anymore because the demand came from cars without any mods. I can make a pair as a "special order" and price is same, but it will take one rotation of brakes to have them. (i.e. wait for at least 6 core returns.) Unfortunately for you, I have a bunch that will be done next week and have no cores at the moment. Tom Sessions will allow them in Viper Days without a points assessment, so I'm planning on a mild rush.

May I suggest that you consider using 40mm on the rear knowing you'll need an adjustable proportioning valve? Then you can fine tune the rear bias to exactly the way you like it. It would add $60-$80 (plus labor) to your swap but much quicker.
 

Chuck 98 RT/10

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Jeff, I like Tom's Stoptech fronts/Tom's rears setup a lot. But you will have to play around with your pad setup to find out what works for you.

Tom, we're gonna have to come up with another name for your upgrade. "Tom's rears" is a bit emasculating for us homophobes.
 

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