What are the differences in the gen2 vs gen 3 engines? ( rod knock issue ) ---

alwayscode390

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I had a buddy buy a 2003 SRT Gen 3 with 35k miles. He had the car a month and got the dreaded #3/#4 rod ****.

I didn't realize this was common problem with the gen 3 engines.

It made me wonder what are the differences in the gen 2 vs gen 3 engines.

Gen 2 = 450hp , Gen 3 = 505hp.

The obvious thing I could see was a new intake manifold and throttle body setup.

What are the other differences?

How about gen 1 vs gen 2 engine differences ( 400hp vs 450hp ). { I know about the gen 2 engine variations ( cam / pistons / headers ) }

Thanks! ---
 
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alwayscode390

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Different cylinder heads on all the different generations? Gen 1 , Gen 2 , and Gen 3 all have different cylinder heads?

What causes the Gen 3 to be more prone to the rod bearing issue than the earlier generation engines? ---
 

mad prof

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Oil starvation is a well documented flaw in the design of Gen 3 engines. The oil pan and pick up point have serious design limitations which can lead to cavitation (oil froath) under severe acceleration and cornering.

It is also documented that the connecting rods of 2003 Gen 3 engines are weak. If one combines the effects of cavitation and the weak rods, especially in 2003 engines, one could logically assume that is probable to have engine failure due to the above.

Many Gen 3 owners are considering updating the oiling system by customizing Gen 4 oil pans and swinging pick up tubes. Dan Lesser of Viper Speciality is the authority on the subject and a leading R&D expert on all viper power plants.
 
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alwayscode390

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I didn't realize the gen 3 was an entirely different engine than the gen 2's ... I figured they all shared the same bottom end and were just getting topend mods to get the extra 50-55 hp between the generations!

I guess the bottom end is where it went from 8.0L to 8.3L ? Different rods and crank? Do they share the same block?

Thanks :) ---
 

99 R/T 10

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No, not the same block. Stroke on a Gen I/II is 3.88. Stroke on a Gen III is 3.96. Although you can use a Gen III crank in a Gen II. assuming it has a cut tone ring for the crank sensor. It's a cheap way to get a small stroker in a Gen II.
 
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troublemaker

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No, not the same block. Stroke on a Gen I/II is 3.88. Stroke on a Gen III is 3.96. Although you can use a Gen III crank in a Gen II. assuming it has a cut tone ring for the crank sensor. It's a cheap way to get a small stroker in a Gen III.

Did I read that right? It was slightly above my head, but wouldn't the Gen 3 crank give the Gen2 added stroke?
 
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alwayscode390

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No, not the same block. Stroke on a Gen I/II is 3.88. Stroke on a Gen III is 3.96. Although you can use a Gen III crank in a Gen II. assuming it has a cut tone ring for the crank sensor. It's a cheap way to get a small stroker in a Gen III.

OK, now that's some good info! THANKS!


I prefer the look of the gen 2 engines myself Fatboy :) ---
 

ipetrov

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I think 2003 cars had stronger rods than the next three years of Gen III. On the other hand, starting in model year 2005 Dodge started addressing some of the problems of the oiling system by introducing better main bearings (at the expense of lower oil pressure at warm idle), and recommending a better quality oil (0w40) as standard. However, the flaws related to the oil pan and pick-up and not that great of an oil pump continued plaguing the cars until the new generation in 2008 when essentially all of the problems were addressed.

Gen II cars are not immune to oil starvation either, as there are numerous documented cases of the exact same problem destroying many a Gen II engine. Not sure if they are in any way better than Gen IIIs (maybe by the higher quality of materials in their internals), but definitely not immune.
 
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alwayscode390

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ok, that's good to know.

I appreciate the knowledge guys. I didn't really search info before or after the gen 2's, because that's what I have.

I tried to focus on what was in front of me ... but this is interesting. ---
 

Viper Specialty

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As pointed out, Gen-2 and Gen-3 are completely different engine designs.

Gen-1: Completely standalone design. Wet Sleeve, 488ci, 4.000x3.880, 9/16 hardware, 4 bolt main, Gen-1 head and water jacket design, separate thermostat housing, later intake manifold changed to a Gen-2 like design layout. 120 degree main bearings. Few oil system problems due to deep sump pan and lower-revving nature of Gen-1 engine. Forged Crank, Forged Pistons, Forged Rods, Press fit pins.

Gen-2: Similar block "look" to Gen-1 [especially late Gen-1], but with 2 bolt + 2 side bolt mains for cap stability, dry sleeve & 1/2" hardware. Same bore/stroke as Gen-1. Completely New head and cooling jacket design. Thermostat now part of block casting. New timing cover design and oil pan with integrated oil pickup. Better Oil Filter location. 120 degree main bearings. Fewer oil system problems due to deeper sump pan design on 2000+ engines, but 1996-1999 with smaller oil pan or high revving [6500+] engines will see system instability earlier. Forged Crank, Forged Pistons up until 1999, Hypereutectic 2000-2002, Press Fit Pins, Forged Rods.

Gen-3: Complete engine revision. All new, 4.030x3.960, carry-over hardware and main cap design. New block casting, short-runner manifold design, much improved head design and cooling system. New timing cover and oil pan design, which later proved to be poor in terms of oil supply reliability. Shallow pan without integrated pickup showed issues in cornering, and timing cover design has stability issues much over 6000. Gen-3 does exceed all other in terms of total cooling system design. No other system can touch the hydraulic cooling module used in the Gen-3, even Gen-4/5. Knock Control added 2005-2006. 120 degree main bearings 2003-2004, 180 degree in 2006 to help alleviate some rod oiling issues that creep up with oil system feed instability. Forged Crank, Hypereutectic pistons, Press Fit Pins, Forged Rods 2003, Powdered Metal Rods 2004-2006.

Gen-4: Extensively modified Gen-3 type engine design. While it "looks" similar to Gen-3, it is in fact a completely new engine. The layout is similar and some parts can be retrofitted, but the technology, quality, and processes employed are light-years ahead. All new intake manifold is substantially larger in volume, flow and runner length. Substantially stronger block design, albeit with smaller hardware down from 1/2 to M12 Main/M11 heads. Complete oiling system revision. new high volume rotor with thinner profile and better back-side filling rate, shuttle type pressure relief valve with an air-bleed-off port and location to prevent cycling, swing-arm oil pickup with larger feed tube, revised pan baffling, new main bearing design. The heads flow substantially better and have better cooling, CNC chambers and throats, better casting quality throughout, lighter and faster [hollow intake] valvetrain, smaller/lighter lifters, Cam-In-Cam technology, Coil Near Plug technology, knock control, Drive-By-Wire, thermally insulated manifolds, better filter module, far superior data processing and engine position detection, etc. 160 degree main bearings w/secondary oil hole. Forged Crank, Hypereutectic pistons, Full Floating Pins, Powdered Metal Rods.

Gen-5: Nearly identical to Gen-4. Basically a Gen-4 engine with a slightly revised camshaft, new composite intake manifold, sodium filled exhaust valves, and a revised valve cover "look". Forged Crank, Hypereutectic pistons, Full Floating Pins, Powdered Metal Rods.
 
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alwayscode390

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WOW, that was outstanding!

Thank you very much for your time ... I learned a lot by that post :D

Whats the difference between the wet and dry sleeve?

I am going to look up and see what a 2+2 main cap looks like. ---
 

Viper Specialty

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WOW, that was outstanding!

Thank you very much for your time ... I learned a lot by that post :D

Whats the difference between the wet and dry sleeve?

I am going to look up and see what a 2+2 main cap looks like. ---

Wet Sleeve has an iron sleeve that sides in with o-rings, and is captured by the head and block. Coolant flows on the back of the sleeve.

Dry Sleeve is an iron sleeve pressed into an aluminum bore in the block. Coolant ports are cast in the aluminum, and the back of the sleeve does not touch the coolant. Sleeves are permanently installed and need to be cut or bored out to be replaced.

4 Bolt Main = 4 vertical bolts.
2+2 Main = 2 vertical bolts and 2 horizontal stabilizers.

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alwayscode390

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PERFECT!

I didn't imagine you could see the horizontal bolts from the outside of the block!!! ( I was picturing splayed style bolts in my head ).

Dan , that was cool of you. Thanks ! ---
 

STUGOTS

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ok

1. This thread should be on sticky at the top, thats some GREAT info VS just gave us

2. Stock to Stock it seems my gen 2's (both of them) pulled harder down low then my gen 3, now I didnt have them both stock at the same time, so its harder to compare but is there something to that?
 

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Found these some time ago and thought they were interesting. It's similar to what you noticed in that the earlier cars (well, gen 3 to 4 at least) have a little more low end grunt than the newer cars. Part of the tradeoff you get sometimes with the high horsepower numbers. One of the reasons I don't really like peak horsepower numbers. A Honda Civic might make 400 horsepower, but if it spike straight up from 150 to get there when a turbo hits and only lasts for 1000 rpm it doesn't really do you much good. You can see where the VVT starts hitting on the gen 4 lines.

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