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What can SRT engineers do to improve future Gen Vipers?

Discussion in 'Generation V Discussions / SRT Coupe, GTS, GTC, AC' started by kdaviper, Oct 3, 2013.

  1. kdaviper

    kdaviper Enthusiast

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    This is a "place your constructive criticism here" thread. Hopefully, this will amount to fruitful discussion of practical steps SRT can take to improve our Beloved snake's performance, comfort, drivability, etc.
    1st of all: We all know Gen IV and V vipers have locked ECUs. we've heard that one a thousand times so no need to repeat it again in this thread.
    2nd: better tires are hopefully on the way, and hopefully they're comparable to the Pilot Sport Cups in performance.
    3rd: I'm not trying to discuss Marketing, management and salesmanship; I want to generate practical ideas to improve the product by concentrating on its weakest links.

    Improved thermal management:
    Idea- aerogel insulation for the intake and exhaust of the Viper. The simple addition of an aerogel (such as pyrogel XT-E or XTF) in critical locations could help the Viper in so many ways. insulating the headers and catalytic converters would keep exhaust heat from coming into the engine compartment and lessen the time it takes to bring the catalytic converters to optimal temperature. Additional insulation would further reduce heat transfer into the cabin , reducing the load on the AC compressor and increasing occupant comfort levels, while mitigating the singed leg syndrome commonly associated with the Viper. Insulating the intake would make sure that the intake temperature would always match ambient air temps as close as possible. And when intake and exhaust insulation does its job, we end up with a more efficient engine overall.

    my .02
     
  2. ViperSmith

    ViperSmith Enthusiast

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    DCT I think would set the car above the rest. With DCT I really am unsure what else the car would need. After driving a McLaren, I feel it would dominate everything.
     
  3. Allan

    Allan Viper Owner

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    Stop trying to chase after a demographic that aren't gonna buy the car anyway, regardless of how nice the interior is, or how much carbon fiber crap you can see.

    The Viper is a car that Viper guys buy, and that's pretty much it.

    We like it for what it is, and what it isn't.
    Most others buying cars that are in this price range or above, want a car that is 'nice'.

    If they make the Viper too 'nice',......It will no longer be a Viper.
    -Then, what's the point. Why bother.


    I think it should have higher HP numbers. Not that the car needs more power, but to market against all the other competition, the Viper shouldn't be an "it only has 640 HP" car.
     
  4. Viper Grenade

    Viper Grenade Enthusiast

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    Try running the exhaust As an Oval UNDER the trans and out the back. That will solve the cabin heat. This also gives you the chance to run a true X-pipe to help out the high pitches civic sounds. If you play your cars right...it can still be side exit the traditional way using a duel mode exhaust valve.

    NO LIFT SHIFT....for the love of all performance, you can get it on a 30k Camero.

    AFTER MARKET SUPPORT. Why the F can't I get a tuner for my Gen4 without the need for a full stand alone ecu. That mopar PCM does do much good if I want to bolt on a small SC, turbo or N2O.

    Forced Induction. I doubt anyone would complain much with a twin turbo 426 Hemi under the hood.

    Make it mod able. True Forged internals like in the Gen2's...it's good to know the old cars could take a 1000rwhp beating like a champ....too bad the new ones can't.
     
  5. ACRucrazy

    ACRucrazy Enthusiast

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    If it's not a V10, its not a Viper. Twin turbo or not. If you want a boosted Hemi, buy a the SRT Cuda/Challenger/Whatever that will come with the 6.2 Hellcat.
     
  6. SnakeBitten

    SnakeBitten Enthusiast

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    1. Truth be told the Vipers 640hp would be plenty in any other decade. Not many cars under 500k have more than that. I can only think of the Aventador....In this era AWD and DCT rules. Look at the Porsche Turbo S. Its heavier than the Viper and has much less HP but its a good bit faster than the Viper in a straight line. Technology. I remember way back on Supraforums when they used to say the "only replacement for displacement is technology"......

    When the TT Vipers started coming out using some of the same tech the Supras were using I had said "there is no replacement for displacement with boost and tech". Now the tech bar has moved with the arival of the DCT. You are just not going to be competative in this era without at least DCT. The MP4-12C proves you dont need AWD and DCT so the Viper would just need the DCT with a proper LC mode. That 640hp and 600tq would be truly phenominal paired with a DCT and LC. DCT as an option would be a nice addition. KEEP THE MANUAL TRANNY AT ALL COSTS THOUGH.


    2. Im not an engineer and I really dont have a problem with the sound of a Vipers engine/exhaust. But since others do and the car is an exotic, is there a way to change the firing order so that the sound and drone would improve? The drone may most likely have more to do with the exhaust resonance than firing order but Id imagine a sweeter sounding exhaust note would be welcome by the majority of potential buyers/owners. Probably a long shot as Im sure it wouild cost a ton to reconfigure firing order, electronics, computer etc...

    3. For 140k I think its overdue for the Viper to have a titanium exhaust system. It alone could shave off at least 50lbs or more from the snake. If you are not going to add DCT then the Viper has to have a serious weight reduction to compete all around. With some sound engineering I believe they could shave 100lbs from a fully loaded GTS Viper [much less the SRT/TA] without costing any luxury or removing sound deadening materials. A titanium exhaust cat back, lighter cats would be the major way to achieve this imho.

    4. CCB's would really add to the Vipers performance.

    5. Motons CS option on the SRT/GTS would be a better riding and handling option than the stock suspension and add much needed refinement to the Vipers handling traits. Plus it can do both street and track while riding smoother than either packages suspension.

    6. Better tires as already mentioned. The wheel packages are already nice imho. SRT did a great job there.


    The car as is has even more potential than it has exibited with some judicious tweaks. Even with an unrefined and unsorted suspension and brake setup, the GTS, while it lost to the ZR1 was still faster than the majority of sportscars out now. Some even cost tripple etc. So the car as it is can only get better imho. It just needs some TLC and a tad more tech and it will be fine.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2013
  7. Alabaster Mamba

    Alabaster Mamba Enthusiast

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    1. Aerogel insulation used throughout the car for not only heat insulation but noise insulation as well.
    2. As mentioned, better tires.
    3. As others have stated, a more mod friendly car. The C7 is already being tuned. (32rwhp/35rwtq just from a tune)
    4. I would also say maybe have targa top for the coupe.
    5. DCT , better performance numbers and probably better mpg as well.
    6. Possibly even an eLSD like the Corvette. I hate to keep adding stuff that the new Corvette has but it does come with some nice new stuff from the factory.
    7. Also, allow the car to be ordered with a more personal taste in mind, ala better performance gears etc depending on user requests. This way it comes from the factory modded to a certain degree.
     
  8. Nine Ball

    Nine Ball Enthusiast

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    For me:

    1. More RPM. 7,000 minimum rev-limiter. If that takes lighter con rods, do it. The cost is minimal, for the gains in hp.
    2. Dry sump oiling system. See #1 above. There is a Grand Canyon amount of room in front of the engine, put a 10 quart oil tank there. Even the mid-level Corvette Grand Sport has a dry sump LS3. The gerotor pump in my '06 is junk, and it hasn't changed much since.
    3. CCB brake option.
    4. DCT automatic trans option.
    5. Factory 4-pt rollbar option. If Porsche can do this, so can SRT.
    6. Make 3.07 or 3.33 rear gearing option, for those who will never track or top-speed a car. Slightly slower acceleration, but better for highway cruising.

    As for heat management, I have ZERO issues with that in my Gen V. With over 6,000 miles now, cabin heat has never been an issue. Even on long drives, the side sills don't put off any noticeable heat into the cabin. Some people get the Gen 1/2 issues confused with other gens. The A/C system in the Gen 3-5 can be a blizzard when running properly. I don't have any heat issues in my '06 coupe, either. Even when it is over 100F outside here, in Houston.
     
  9. SRTviper

    SRTviper Enthusiast

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    I like all your suggestions but the part in bold has my questioning on a car of this day and age something like the A/C shouldn't have that remark added to it. Maybe even a 7500-8000 RPM limiter because it is an N/A engine.
     
  10. Nine Ball

    Nine Ball Enthusiast

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    "running properly" meaning that the right amount of refrigerant is in the system. I've had people gripe about the A/C in their cars, and after a quick re-charge they became blizzards again. People sometimes think the A/C systems are self-supporting and never run low on refrigerant.
     
  11. JAY

    JAY Viper Owner

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    2014_viper_srt_targa_by_danyutz-d4vaz9a[1].jpg :D :2tu: Easily Done :)
     
  12. madninjaskillz

    madninjaskillz Enthusiast

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    1. Release the codes.
    2. Rev to 7000
    3. CCB option
    4. DCT option (even though I prefer a manual)
     
  13. SilveRT8

    SilveRT8 Viper Owner

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    A stock no drone exhaust
     
  14. SADVIPER

    SADVIPER Viper Owner

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    This sums up the best advise SRT and anyone working on the Viper can get. Simple stratight-forward truth. I really liked the Viper because of this and never because of what they are trying to make nowadays.
     
  15. BigDawg

    BigDawg Enthusiast

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    Everything is pretty much covered here. The only thing I disagree with is the V8 comment.

    -DCT is a must.

    -More aggressive body work would help IMO. Just widen the rear a few inches, the front is aggressive as is.

    -Go away from Pirelli. I'm not a fan of their tires or their prices.

    -More unique and specific Viper interior while keeping the added creature comforts

    -Better looking engine. The plastic cover is terrible.
     
  16. Flylow

    Flylow Viper Owner

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    I am on the fence between a Porsche, used 430 and Viper, with a slight leaning towards the Viper. The "honesty" of the Viper is very appealing, manual gear shift and all. More horse power for bragging rights/higher sales number would be good (ACR?), and get rid of the terrible plastic cover over the engine. I think that the Viper interior is great. Surprisingly, I found that the 430 interior looks quite busy after you have looked at the Viper for a while - great job SRT!
     
  17. Jack B

    Jack B Enthusiast

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    No dis, but, if you looked under those plastic covers you would understand why they are there.


     
  18. FLYTWA

    FLYTWA Viper Owner

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    Allow for current cars to be upgradable with future refinements.
    Especially software pertaining to power and handling.

    Regards,
    Fly
     
  19. strykergts

    strykergts Enthusiast

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    smack the marketing team for dropping the ball on a well made, hand crafted machine.
     
  20. ACRucrazy

    ACRucrazy Enthusiast

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    Buy this man a beer.:2tu:
     
  21. InjectTheVenom

    InjectTheVenom VCA Associate Member

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    Bring out an ACR with GTS-R tribute paint scheme like ferraritoviper's GTS and go spank everything out there.
     
  22. Martin

    Martin Enthusiast

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    1) Direct injected engine with lighter forged and titanium internals and ability to rev to 7000+.
    2) Play with the PCM so that we can get rid of the stupid gas guzzler tax. Take that tax off, and the price comes down about $2k right away. It's a horrible thing to say, but implement an 'econo mode' that nobody but the EPA will ever use.
    3) ACR model that builds on the strengths of the Gen IV ACR and sets a new standard.
    4) Offer a package that ditches all the luxury and electronic stuff.
    5) Titanium rear-exit exhaust.
    6) Dry sump oil system would be great - but maybe too much to ask for.
    7) OHC (chain driven) heads with real variable valve timing.
    8) Real race seat option with factory "tall driver" option.
    9) Ditch the power adjustable pedals - how often do we adjust them once we find a setting we like, anyhow? The manual adjustable pedals are plenty.
     
  23. ohlarikd

    ohlarikd Enthusiast

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    These sounds like enhancements for the Gen 5 so far. Ok, here is something that no one will agree with, I am sure - I am talking Gen 6 here.

    First I am a huge V10 fan, and a huge Viper fan. But, I think times are changing. The days of giant gas powered, poor mileage engines are coming to end. The Viper is relatively low tech for +$100K. Since this is Dodge (I refuse to call it SRT), they cannot afford a squadron of sports cars like say Porsche. So they can only have 1 Halo car.

    This current package which we all love is not selling in this day and age, it seems, and we have a million answers and speculations why that is. Putting in a cheaper V8 is not a solution, and it is one that is backwards, boring, and derivative. I truly believe the world is going Hybrid or Electric, and the Viper should go there. Witness McLaren, Porsche, Ferrari - they are all producing hybrid supercars with incredible performance due to electric propulsion and huge instantaneous torque figures to assist the gas engine. Soon their whole lineups will go in that direction as costs come down. In the meantime, Ferrari is going 100% forced induction to increase efficiency. I understand these cars are incredibly expensive too.

    The new era of supercars is technology innovation and forward thinking. Not knocking the Gen5 as they had essentially zero budget, so I am talking Gen6. A Gen6 program would justify the cause to keep the Viper going rather than cancelling it. It becomes a research project that justifies its existence, with trickle down to their mainstream lineup. It does not need to be $800,000 like the Porsche, which is ludicrous. Dodge can make a hybrid much like an NSX and at that same pricepoint.

    Now, I haven't seen anyone propose this, so I am assuming the Viper faithful do not want this. But keep it in the back of your mind as the years go on and you see the trends and the mindset of the buyers.

    Interested in your thoughts... hopefully in a non-violent manner :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2013
  24. ViperSmith

    ViperSmith Enthusiast

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    Personally I wouldn't object to dropping the V10, or even going to a smaller V10. I know plenty would. I wouldn't even object to a rear engine car.

    I'd love to see a radical redesign for Gen VI (hopefully there is one). If it kicks ass and takes names, then all will be fine. Failure to do that and changing the core of the viper will be widely rejected.
     
  25. Endeka

    Endeka Enthusiast

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    Hi everyone,

    I'm not an owner, so I hope this post isn't taken amiss, but I own two Corvettes, an older coupe and a newer Z06, and have been shopping for a Viper for about four months. I wanted to chime in because I think I'm the kind of person who SRT was trying to attract with this car. I'm cross shopping vs. other exotic brands. So I wanted to throw in my two cents about the future of the SRT viper.

    I think the SRT Viper is the greatest looking American car to come out in the last 30 years. It fixed every dated line on the already beautiful GTS, namely the doofy headlights, the pancake-flat hood, the way-too-big rear hatch glass, and the severely dated wheels. It looks amazing. This brings me to my first point strength that the Viper team needs to play up:

    1. It follows nobody. Corvette is always biting Porsche's heels. Porsche really wants Ferrari's cachet. The Viper is totally its own thing. No other car in the world is built with this design ethic, this styling, and this setup. I think it runs the only non-flat-plane-crank v10 in any sports car. That makes the car desperately cool. Viper needs to play up this attitude more. It shouldn't ever have resorted to "These seats are from Ferrari's suppler, (look at us, we're luxurious like them!)" The tagline all along should have been, "Come for a ride, you'll forget all about your Ferrari." That brings me to my next point.

    2. By playing suck-up to other brands, the Viper lost out on the fact that it was once considered a legitimate rival of the best of them. I still remember the days when the Gen II GTS was considered a legitimate alternative to the Diablo if you wanted to take names between lights and laugh your ass off on back roads afterwards. Mags said it all the time, "Diablo or GTS if you want fun!" By comparing yourself to other brands in a yearning way, you lower yourself below them. By saying "our interior is like a Ferrari now" you draw attention to the fact that you've been below their standards before. By playing up (and raging about) a comparison with Corvette, you go from being unambiguously greater in everyone's eyes to being their rival. Being a rival of an inferior never does good things. How many cars has Aston Marton made that are faster than a GTR? You'll never hear their CEO get pissed because they lost to a Datsun in a MotorMag comparison. Even if the Viper was slower than the ZR1, the true supercar thing to do would be to default to the excuse that Lambo and Ferrari owners have been using against Corvette owners for years: "At the end of the race, you're still in the Corvette, and we're still in the exotic supercar."

    3. Always remember-think like a supercar. Nobody considered the Viper to be "just a Dodge." People walk past 911 GT2's and old Ferraris to get to a Viper at a car show like the Euros aren't even there. The Dodge branding is not the problem, nor is the price, the problem is that the Viper lost some of its attitude at the brand level. In the 90's, it was all "I'm an American supercar, deal with it!" Now they're tepid, trying clumsily to justify their price in interviews rather than just owning it as the fabulously frivolous extravagance it is to get into a very exclusive club. The problem isn't that people are choking on a $140,000 Dodge, because a Viper is a Viper first, and a Dodge second.

    So, what real changes should be made to the car (within reason) to make it sell better? Not a lot, as most of the problems are ethos and sales-pitch related, but there are definitely a few:

    Engine: The older cars had something that connected them to exotics, which they never shouted about-Exposed, beautiful metal engines. You open a Gen 1-4, and BAM, huge metal intake, fuel rails, the whole bit. People see that and they think, "Hey, you know what other engine looks like this? One from Lambo, Ferrari, Aston, Audi R8 V10, etc. You open a car and see plastic covers, you instantly think of cheap ****ty econoboxes, or a budget exotic like the 911 or the Corvette. Either way, the Viper, which is a true hair-shirted exotic, loses. No weight savings is worth a plastic engine covering.

    Exhaust: Titanium, and for God's sake, install high-flow cats at the factory. There should be zero heat scorch/cabin heat issues in 2013. You can use aerogel to help this too.

    Brakes: Can you think of a single exotic of this caliber that doesn't have CCBS? If you need, as Ralph did, to explain to journalists how steel brakes can be "pretty much as good" in interviews, you already lost. Just buy them. Nobody that can go in for a $140,000 car can't go in for one that costs $148,000. Fearing those minor price bumps are thinking like a Dodge marketer rather than a supercar marketer. You're out of the blue-collar-drywaller-on-a-pension market already, so spend like you're selling to anesthesiologists.

    Frame: It should be aluminum. If the Viper is going to beat up high tech giants, it needs to make gains by losing some weight. Steel frames are also yestertech for almost every supercar, and not in a good way.

    Lubrication: Dry sump. GTS name=race car in most people's minds. Own it by fully prepping it for the track.

    Buck the market trend with a staggering warranty. I've always advocated American sports cars going to town on Euros with this marketing strategy, and the Viper could be king of the hill here. We all know that the Viper is the lowest maintenance, most durable true exotic out there. So play off that. 10 year/100,000 mile power train and instead of negatively sucking up to the exotics in comparisons, point out the fragility as the serious fault it is: "You'll need to set aside $5000 to service our rivals from Italy if you drive 15,000 miles a year, but you'll only spend $1500 on our Viper because we have better engineering. Save your money for tires!

    Allow test drives. No way in hell am I buying anything that costs as much as a condo without seeing what it's like first. This should be really played up: Set up an auto-x at SRT dealerships with safe runoff and then get people in the seats. I'd even open it up to qualified Viper aspirants who aren't quite there yet (say the just-graduated computer scientist or mechanical engineer now making $90K), because they're going to be making $160K in a couple years and be able to afford at least a base Viper. Get the blood flowing.

    Anyway, sorry for the long post, but I just wanted to let you know that there are non "Viper guys" out there that are interested in the car, and its survival.
     
  26. BigDawg

    BigDawg Enthusiast

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    ^ Very good post and very true. But for the love God stop calling the Viper a supercar. That's like calling a local car show model a "supermodel". It's an American Exotic and a damn good one at that!
     
  27. ohlarikd

    ohlarikd Enthusiast

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    Endeka - you say that the $140K Viper price is NOT the problem. But then you say for $140K, it should have Carbon-Ceramic brakes, an aluminum frame, and a titanium exhaust. So then then it IS overpriced then?

    I don't really see the 'suck up' you talk about. The only thing you point out is the same seat supplier as Ferrari. The seat. Anything else?

    Not knocking you, just trying to have a conversation about your thoughts.
     
  28. Endeka

    Endeka Enthusiast

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    Yeah, absolutely. The whole ZR1 blow-up. You don't get down in the dirt and squabble with your inferiors. Even if your car didn't outperform, you quietly redouble your efforts in the performance department, but outwardly keep your cool. Did you notice what Lamborghini did in response to the C6 Z06 blowing the Gallardo's doors off for 1/3 the price in 2006? Yeah, nothing. That's exactly how SRT should have responded: Work on the TA/ACR, but not worry about the soon-to-be-dead ZR1. The Viper is better looking and more desirable in every single way anyway.

    No, you just misread what I said a little bit. I said that the $140K price is not the problem, and if they need to add $8,000 for the brakes (and I'd assume, also add some for the other stuff), that'd be better than going without.

    SRT doesn't seem to have a good grasp on how wealth is distributed. There are a crapton of people who make like 30-150K in this country. Then, there's this middle territory. People who make $200K, 250k, etc. These are the people who would buy a $140K car, but then might be turned away if it cost $170k.

    There's the kicker: There are not many of these people.

    Beyond a certain point, amassing income based on an hourly wage for services rendered becomes nonviable as an income-advancing strategy. Income at the highest levels is produced by people who provide a service to be consumed by a staggering audience-selling fast food franchises that feed millions, selling songs rocked out to by hundreds of thousands, selling your athletic prowess to five million viewers, selling your app to twenty million downloaders at $0.99 a piece. There are a lot of dekamillionares and beyond in this country, people who do the kinds of things I listed. There are not many people who punch the clock and make $200K a year (basically just a few doctors, lawyers, and investment bankers). Pretty much, if you can make $200K/yr, you can make $1 million/yr and not care about the cost of CCBs or titanium exhaust. Take a look at this graph:

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Distribution_of_Annual_Household_Income_in_the_United_States.png

    Whose buying a $140,000 car? It's not someone making $145K/yr. That'd be like someone making $80K/yr buying a $72,000 Z06. Not likely. SRT has crossed the $120,000 threshold. They're now selling to those last two bars on the graph. They need to wake up and act like it. Their new mantra should be victory at any cost.

    They have something literally no other American car in production has right now: Their sports car is lust-worthy regardless of value. I could totally see people taking a GTS over a 911 Turbo, a DBS, or a Gallardo. Not, "well, if money is no object," but even if it was. They need to play that up. The viper is just as rare, just as cool, and just as sick looking as the 458 or the LP560. They need to run with that down the field and not turn back to look at where GM and Nissan's defenders are in pursuit.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2013
  29. VIPER GTSR 91

    VIPER GTSR 91 Viper Owner

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    This is a great thread BTW. 1. ACR version with hardcore editions is at the top of my list for them. 2. Better paint and body fit control on assembly as there are some owners on here that have had problems already. 3. Aim for higher NA HP to keep up with the competition.
     
  30. ohlarikd

    ohlarikd Enthusiast

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    Well, that is something I didn't think about. Maybe they SHOULD have just let it go and been quiet. Continue with their development of the ACR (skip the TA) and when it comes out, then we shall see. Sort of like Apple does when everyone says Android has the same features or better - Apple generally does nothing for a whole year, quietly working on the next one. Only since Tim Cook took over have they been mentioning competitors on occassion - Jobs is turning in his grave.

    For the rest of what you said, interesting analysis. Still, its hard to say that they can only sell a few hundred Vipers if the target group you mentioned does not care about money. They probably then would not care about the press either, or SRTs reaction with the TA. Would a Ceramic Brake option sell a thousand more Vipers? An aluminum or carbon tub? I don't really think so. There may be a hard price ceiling on what a Dodge dealer can sell a car at, and add the fact that it is American.

    Sort of like the persistent prejudice against American cars in terms of Quality. This 70s/80s mess with american car quality, and the subsequent Japanese and European take over in that department, STILL goes on today, despite the reports and obvious improvements made by American car companies. Too late. Even Hyundai and Kia have managed to turn that around and they sell a ton of cars, when they were the laughing stock of the 80s.

    I believe that at a certain price point, people look to the Europeans for exotic cars. Apparently, SRT has found where that point is.

    My opinion.
     

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